BMW developed H engine, ready in 2008

BMW has been making SULEV (Super ultra low emissions vehicles) and ZEV (zero emissions vehicle = prototype) for 7 years + anyway. These cars are a nightmare. Almost no Hydrocarbon release from these vehicles. (cool) But after you turn off the ignition and the GM sends a sleeper signal out & the '___'L pumps start running tests???? If your car even farts.....you’re going to the dealer for a diagnosis and 4 FRU. (Field replacement units 4 FRU= 1 Hour=$100.00+ bucks) Imagine a fender bender? You can’t even repair these cars. (Insurance Doesn't!) The body electronics and the OBD (On board diagnostics) systems are so fragile a normal accident will rack you some stupid bill like $16,356.71 and total the car. How about that tax credit now, huh?

And I would also assume this will have a GRAV-60. (2004 forward) All aluminum frame and firewalls like the new 5's and 6's. That means each frame rail can only be bent 1mm tolerance in each direction or it’ll lose 40% of its strength, according to BMW, that’s it! Sounds cool, but, this is just another disposable beemer.

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
i'm sorry. you don't seem to be making any sense?

well I get it just fine.

he is saying BMW will have hydrogen engine for cerain cars in their model line by the end of 2008.

he then went on to talk about some law of energy, and how we arent creating the energy, its already there via the Earth. hes saying we shouldn't be charged money for these things, free from the Earth.

and then he said, so go and use your hydrogen before the government starts taxing it and the companies start farming it and making you pay for it.

does that make sense?

Originally posted by The Prime Mover
And I would also assume this will have a GRAV-60. (2004 forward) All aluminum frame and firewalls like the new 5's and 6's. That means each frame rail can only be bent 1mm tolerance in each direction or it’ll lose 40% of its strength, according to BMW, that’s it! Sounds cool, but, this is just another disposable beemer.

cool, so they've got frames that are extra protected from frame bending, an unfortunate occurrence that totals the car, being that it is RWD..

my BIMMER is 1994 model. its falling apart, lol! and the engine, w/171,000 miles, the rod bearings are going bad on a connecting rod causing a knock, so now the engine is toast! i dont drive it, dont want to throw the rod.

to buy used engine and have put in? $2,200 ..

Originally posted by kontol
What make me sick is the people keep on saying "You must input the same to get the same output", or other similar term. Law of energy conservation, etc.

Let me ask you.

- If I light up 1 liter petrol and it gives certain amount of burning energy, DO I NEED to put in that much energy in oder to get that amount of energy? - NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I just need a matches.

- Nuclear bomb can wipe out a city, do you need to put in that much energy in order to get that output? - NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, where is the Law of Energy Conservation? It is THERE!!!!!!!!!!

Let me answer you.

When you 'light up' a liter of petrol, *you* don't have to put energy into the system, because you're releasing energy already 'in place' through oxidation. It's the chemical analogue of potential energy being converted to kinetic.

As for the energy in a nuclear initiation, it comes from the fact that when a nucleus undergoes fission, some of the mass is actually converted into energy. You may have seen "e=mc squared" from time to time? It applies here.

The down-side to hydrogen fuel is that, as others have pointed out, it takes at least as much energy to 'crack' hydrogen (from water or natural gas) as you get from the burning of the hydrogen...that's not really an application of the Law of Conservation, it's an application of the second law of thermodynamics. Hydrogen will *never* be a net source of energy, at least not this side of very efficient fusion.

Also, don't take storage and transport of hydrogen for granted. As a gas, it has a nasty habit of permeating seals and escaping, and if the idea of carrying around liquid hydrogen in your car's fuel tank doesn't send a chill up your spine, I don't know what will. In fact, the storage and transport problems are going to be harder to solve than the production problems, in my opinion....production just requires that we tranquilize the environmentalists, and build several dozen high-output nuclear plants along the coast. That would give us plenty of electricity and seawater to make hydrogen with.

Despite the tone of my post, I actually think hydrogen power is a technology well worth advancing...I just don't see it as the universal solution to the fuel problem.

The bottom line is that the auto and oil industries control it all and will keep the world dependant on oil until the very last drop is gone.

The truth is that if the auto industry wanted to they could already have clean burning alternatives other than ethanol blends which are just a way to throw us off track. If any of you older people remember, we went down this ethanol road once before and it failed miserably.

It's all about $$$$!

If we can send a manned mission to Mars and colonize the moon, both of which are in the works and will happen, then don't feed me these "problems" associated with alternative fuel sources.

Let’s face it, if it benefited big business and made them money NOW, we'd have all the alternatives we could ask for.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Some of the inventors have displayed simple technology that performs the splitting of water into oxygen and hydrogen gas using minimal energy and fuss. One method used an electrical device that vibrated the water at a certain frequency and the water divided easily. This takes much less energy than commonly known methods. The guy was in Australia I remember.

Hopefully it works. Thanks.

Originally posted by Blaine91555 First off developing this technology requires financial sacrifices only the United States is prepared to underwrite.

Are you saying only U.S. has the money? And once they have developed it they will control it and sell the patent to the world? Again?
If together all the nations can try to work hand in hand on it. It will be great.
Don’t wait till U.S. control and sell the H the world.

Originally posted by Blaine91555 Second - as you have chosen to ignore - You have to use more energy from traditional sources to create the Hydrogen than it takes to run a car in the first place.

It is not to create H, it is using the H. Split it from somewhere and use it. Scientists are developing efficient way of splitting it.

Originally posted by Blaine91555 Third - We are well on our way to controlling emissions and the negative impact of traditional fuels. It is the Third World Countries who will be doing all the polluting from now on. China will soon far surpass anything we have ever put in the air. Take a look at satellite images over Southern China and south of China. What you will see is the permanent brown cloud caused by backward countries burning wood for fuel. Whats your solution to that?

Still, you are creating emissions problems, you are still burning oil! You are polluting.
Yes, China will soon far surpass America, but America has been polluting for decades.
I don’t have any solution for that, do you?

Originally posted by Blaine91555 Fourth - We will end up being the ones who buy most of these cars. Other countries will have to tax Hydrogen Fuels heavily to make up for the taxes they will loose from the huge taxes you folks are paying on gasoline now. How much does gas cost in other countries with those high Socialistic Taxes????? 2, 3, 4 times what we pay???? It is all taxes is it not? To pay for the cradle to grave welfare?

It is just your speculation. And may I know it is based on what?

I think China has cheap oil. Many countries has cheap oil though they don’t invade Middle-East.

Most governments put taxes on oil. And I think America government will tax very high on oil, if they don’t go to war in Middle East.
Just wander, why you pump oil from Middle East instead on your own land?

Originally posted by Malichai H does and will cost far more. When you make H from water you have to input more energy than you get out. Plus you need to liquefy, transport, and store the highly cryogenic fuel in expensive containers. That energy will have to come from oil, nuclear, gas or some other electric source. Making it from Natural Gas is not saving energy.

Same thing applied, you need energy drill, pump, store, transport oil.

“You have to input more energy than you get out”, I don’t buy it, and that’s one of the reason I started this thread. You don’t need to put in that much energy to get nuke energy.
You process it, the energy is in the element.

Originally posted by Malichai H is not an energy source. It is an energy vehicle. You cannot pump it out of the ground, or gather it from the air. You have to make it with another energy source and along the way you consume far more energy than if you had simply burned the fuel in the car or plugged into in the wall socket.

True, it is not something to pump out from the ground.
And for oil, you need the pumps, pipes and transportations all the way from Middle-East to America.

Yes, you need another energy to get H into action. Perhaps electricity from solar power.

Originally posted by Malichai H is not an energy vehicle solution. Ultra-Capacitors or some new battery technology are the solution.

Hopefully there are many solutions to oil crisis. We don’t want to rely on just one solution only as we have been suffering relying on oil.

Originally posted by Malichai H is a marketing ploy!

Perhaps it is the other way round, “H is not working” is an oil company marketing ploy!

Originally posted by coven Chevy had a hydrogen truck 3 years ago... car last year...(available to the public)

Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have had Hydrogen fueled vehicles in asia for 7 years... test cars for 10.... released in America 5 years ago....

(also interesting to note last 3 times I've been to Europe I've never seen a Hydrogen Fueling station; Yet I live in the capital of a southern state, and only have to drive 15 minutes to get to a hydrogen fueling station.)

Very good, so the H car is there.
Is that hydrogen fueling station for cars or other use?
If it is for cars, it means it is there, the H car works!

When the H concepts work, you will see plenty of H stations.

The current problem is, why would one build a H station if there is not many H car around, and why would manufacturer build H cars if there is no buyer because there is no H station to fill up?

But hopefully, if we all look into it and work together on it. It will happen. The H world.

Originally posted by coven The problem is the American Fuel companies (exxon-mobil, British Petroleum,
Citgo, Mapco, Etc) have spent Billions to keep there fueling stations petrol only...

Don't blame the American people for the fact our government sold us out to major corporations... It's only a matter of time until your country falls to the sway of the almighty*insert Currency name where you reside* and keeps its petrol stations...

Exactly!!!!!

Ok, it is the government problem.  It is a critic, not blaming.

And I don’t understand what “insert currency name where you reside” means.

Originally posted by coven Please use babelfish and translate from your native tongue to English...
I know I am not the only one who is having trouble understanding the details of your posts..

Please don’t read, if you find my English is so bad.

Originally posted by Rockpuck However, there is no technology that can produce enough Hydrogen to meet the energy demands...

And quite simply, is gas is cheaper, gas will be used, not Hydrogen. Not to mention the insane prices for "clean cars" .. the cost you pay for the damn car will never = the amount saved in gas unless you keep it well past 7-10 years..

I think there is. Or the technology will be there. BMW is not new kid in the block, and they are risking their reputation here. And it is European, German technology.

Gas could be cheaper, any other solution is good. Electric, solar, and others are good.

True, the H car will be very expensive. But again when it is mass production and when the world is demanding, it will be very cheap. Don’t let China produce them.

Originally posted by Rockpuck Ignorant. Water is not every where, infact, its rather rare any more .. The use of massive amount of fresh water in Hydrogen factories would make the cost of WATER actually go up! ... effecting the people at the pumps, and in the homes..

There is not enough clean water to be used for fuel...

Water is everywhere. I think at least 70% of the earth surface is covered by water.
There is a possibility to use sea water to get H, some even claimed you can get H from waste water.
By the way, H is one of the most abundant element on this planet Earth.

Originally posted by Rockpuck Less pollution? .. As I said before, where are the scientific proof and studies that there will not be ADVERSE effects of this fuel to the air, land, habitat, ecosystem ect.

It is. The by product is H20 which is water.
Whatever the effect is, it is lower than burning fuel.
You can drink a glass of water, you can’t drink a glass of petrol. You can’t even sniff it deeply.
And try to breath in front of your petrol car exhaust for 2 minutes, then you will know H or benzene is better in term of its’ effects to the air, land, environment, etc.

Originally posted by Rockpuck Fear of running out of energy? You would have to be damn paranoid to be afraid of running out of oil. There is plenty of oil left, plenty.

Less Greed? ..... Hydrogen will be a multi-billion dollar energy.. Oh there will be greed.

( Israel not letting Palestine be free because it sits on one of its largest water reserves, not to mention the River Jordan ) .. Turkey has even built dams to horde water, then sell to other countries.

End wars my ass. It would simply give people another reason to kill one another.

There will never be an end to wars.

Yes, it is called oil crisis. I am not paranoid about it. I know there is still plenty of oil. But it is good if we can get alternative energy.

I don’t think H will be multi-billion dollar energy. Unless America control it and give everybody a war if people don’t buy from America.
Perhaps there will be technology which can give you H from your backyard. A relative small equipment that process your house water into H using solar energy. And if the water is expensive, take public bus instead.
When everybody is producing it, it is not a billion-dollar business anymore.

Not like oil case, which you need to locate the spot, drill, pump, process, store, transport.

Yes, there will be no end of wars. But at least try not to start it!!

Why American started sending troops to Middle-East?

Originally posted by Rockpuck I would humbly guess you read about Hydrogen this morning and are quite convinced the world is about to see some kind of moral, ethical breakthrough because of it.

I would also say, rather confidently, that your about 100% wrong.

No. It is not something I read this morning. This topic has been brought many times on this forum. And some people keep on saying input=output.



[edit on 15-5-2007 by kontol]

Originally posted by Rockpuck We would have no problem if a third party operated and maintained their facilities, but they don't want that. Wonder why. To say we "ban" nuclear power everywhere, is again ignorant.. We offered to build Turkey one, and we fully support our European friends nuclear power.

Why you accuse they do not operate and maintain their facilities? And why you called them 3rd party?
Yes, you offer Turkey one, they pay American engineers top dollar $. Iran and North Korea don’t want to pay because they don’t need no of American expertise. So America try to ban them! It is just my opinion.
And American don’t dare to ban any European countries because they are not nutshells.

Originally posted by Rockpuck No, it would cost more, much more.

And MANY MANY MANY nations have a WATER SHORTAGE.. even countries like France and the UK in Europe.

How much more? We don’t know until we do it.
Yes, many countries are having clean drinking water shortage. And to purify the water, you need energy. When H is ready, it could be use to purify the water. Everything will be recycling.
By the way H is available also in seawater, waste water.

Originally posted by junglelord
I’m way ahead of this post with my Water Car Post

fracture of water into 2H / O via electrolosis is economical with high frequency pulsed core rods properly spaced. 2 H2O into H2, H2 O2 actually

nay sayers and those who think its not possible still drive petrol.

It is true, in fact your thread inspired me to start a new one. Thanks.

And this topic has been brought many times in this forum. And the nay sayers always say classic words “ input > output “.

Originally posted by The Prime Mover
... These cars are a nightmare. Almost no Hydrocarbon release from these vehicles. (cool) But after you turn off the ignition and the GM sends a sleeper signal out & the '___'L pumps start running tests???? If your car even farts.....

... Sounds cool, but, this is just another disposable beemer.

Everything is improving. Consumers are always getting more and more demanding, they want the best for every dollar they pay.
Just wander how many failures when they started the petrol car?

Originally posted by runetang

well I get it just fine.

…

He then went on to talk about some law of energy, and how we aren’t creating the energy, it’s already there via the Earth. He’s saying we shouldn't be charged money for these things, free from the Earth.

And then he said, so go and use your hydrogen before the government starts taxing it and the companies start farming it and making you pay for it.

Does that make sense?

Thanks.
That’s more likely. 

And actually it is not totally free. There is always a labour costs on that.
Engineers and manufacturers have to charge you for living and wealth.

Basically oil is also free from earth, you just need to pump it out. And you have to pay engineers and manufacturer for that.
But political control over oil is running wild, and some part of the world has no oil or not economical to drill.
Oil has caused so many environmental problems beside political problems.

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer Let me answer you.

When you 'light up' a liter of petrol, *you* don't have to put energy into the system, because you're releasing energy already 'in place' through oxidation. It's the chemical analogue of potential energy being converted to kinetic.

As for the energy in a nuclear initiation, it comes from the fact that when a nucleus undergoes fission, some of the mass is actually converted into energy. You may have seen "e=mc squared" from time to time? It applies here.

Yes, I know that. Thanks. It is releasing the energy that is reserved in the element.
All I am trying to say is that “ It is not CREATing a H, but using the H”. (or releasing the energy contented in H, convert the H into energy or whatever the word is)
I know input = output or even input > output. Law of Conservation applies.

But it seems, some people try hard to lead people to look at input=output. If you want to create one liter oil, yes it is going to take more energy than the oil can produce. If you want to burn one liter of oil, you just need a stick of matches.

A human doesn’t need that huge energy to get huge nuke energy.
But yes, E= mc2 is there.

So what is missing here? The understanding mind is missing.

Sorry, about my English, it is hard for me to explain scientific things.

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer The down-side to hydrogen fuel is that, as others have pointed out, it takes at least as much energy to 'crack' hydrogen (from water or natural gas) as you get from the burning of the hydrogen...that's not really an application of the Law of Conservation, it's an application of the second law of thermodynamics. Hydrogen will *never* be a net source of energy, at least not this side of very efficient fusion.

I think the technology will be there soon. It will take much less energy to crack the H, and then the H will give you much more energy than what it takes to crack it.
Thanks for reminding me again about “Law of thermodynamics”. 

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer Also, don't take storage and transport of hydrogen for granted. As a gas, it has a nasty habit of permeating seals and escaping, and if the idea of carrying around liquid hydrogen in your car's fuel tank doesn't send a chill up your spine, I don't know what will. In fact, the storage and transport problems are going to be harder to solve than the production problems, in my opinion....production just requires that we tranquilize the environmentalists, and build several dozen high-output nuclear plants along the coast. That would give us plenty of electricity and seawater to make hydrogen with.

Yes, there is a problem in there.
There were also problems in oil drilling, storage, piping, and transportations. But engineers and scientists has solved it.
Hopefully, one day scientists and engineers will solve the H problems. They are trying to store it -240 degree or so.

Exactly, we need energy to process the H initially, and nuclear plant along the coast is a very good idea. A huge energy to crack H from seawater.
How about solar panel?

BMW was proposing a H station with solar power. So they just need to fill in water, and the solar produce electricity to crack H from water, cool it down to -240 degree and store it as liquid or some other state.

Are you saying only U.S. has the money? And once they have developed it they will control it and sell the patent to the world? Again?
If together all the nations can try to work hand in hand on it. It will be great.
Don’t wait till U.S. control and sell the H the world.

Are you serious serious? Are you suggesting that all multinational corporations are from the US? Do you forget that many European nations invest heavily in the US and therefore have a stake and control of the corporations that are selling things to everyone in the world?. Doesn't your country of origin have corporations or businesses that profit at your expense?

It is just your speculation. And may I know it is based on what?

I think China has cheap oil. Many countries has cheap oil though they don’t invade Middle-East.

Most governments put taxes on oil. And I think America government will tax very high on oil, if they don’t go to war in Middle East.
Just wander, why you pump oil from Middle East instead on your own land?

No my friend you are the speculator how about posting facts to back up your claims. The taxes are lower on gas the US. Check this site out
www.csmonitor.com...

And by the way just stop with your Anti American crap. You remind me of some other folks that like to blame everyone else for there problems. Did you forget that the US saved Europe from Nazi rule. The US is the worlds super super power so everyone takes shots at #1. I'm from the US and I don't support or advocate war and neither do the majority of Americans. I would like to pay less for gas but as long as you have governments and corporations pulling the strings this isn't going to happen. Also, the US has a trade deficit which means we buy more than we sell. So what are you talking about buy saying that the US is going to sell Hydrogen to everyone.
I'm sure you live in a capitalist nation so if you don't like capitalism move to China, Cuba, or North Korea (who you think should have nukes).

Until there is a COST EFFICIENT manner of generating stored hydrogen, any commercial use will be of little value. It simply takes far too much energy to create stored hydrogen than you get out of it in return. Solar systems are not the answer unless they come up with far more efficient solar systems. Nuke plants along the coast are also not the answer. Much of the population does not live in the coast. Transporting and storage is a significant problem. Nukes cost a great deal to build and operate. They also generate waste that we still have NO solution for.

Currently there is no manner of generating stored hydrogen that does not take a great deal more energy to produce, than the potential energy of the Hydrogen itself. This is a net loss of energy and a net gain of waste products.

Bio Diesel, sugar cane alcohol, and more efficient vehicles are real working solutions to the oil problem that are in use as we speak.

You may remember the Space X Prize that offered a large sum of cash for anyone who could build and launch a viable reusable space vehicle. That X Prize jump-started the private commercial space industry. The X Prize foundation is currently offering 10 million US dollars for the first team to come up with a workable consumer vehicle that gets 100 miles to the gallon. It has to be a real car and not just a science project test bed. That is the direction we should be headed in. More efficiency.
You can read more about the 100MPG X Prize here: 100MPG Cars

[edit on 15/5/07 by Terapin]

Honda, Nissan, Toyota will release their H cars on 2008, or at least petrol-hydrogen hybrid cars will be shown.

Soon H will go housewares, electric generator.

Solar power, wind power, tidal waves generator are following.

And typical American keep on shouting input=output. And forcing the world to use oil so they can keep on their war in middle-east to protect Israel.
Every each American has to pay for that! They pay taxes for war, send their sons for war to protect Jews in Israel and risking America itself.

If you are working for oil company and licking your boss till last drop saliva, start resigning now!!!!!!!!!

Another H car.

2008 Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell


General Motors wants the world to know that its efforts to build hydrogen-powered cars are more than just vapor. In 2007, the company plans to put a fleet of 100 fuel-cell sports-utilities on the road, some of which will be given to families for everyday use.

[edit on 22-5-2007 by kontol]

You have to understand that Hydrogen needs to be separated. These methods of separation require energy to be put in. The problem has always been that you have to use more energy to extract hydrogen than you get from using the result. Comparing it to the process of nuclear bomb making doesn't work, it's a whole other element. That's why they use it for bombs, it has it's own properties.

ROCKPUT , Although i agreed with your long post on page 1 i have taken warnings for far less.

Think on buddy.