Lets have a real debate about 911 right here!

Im tired of beating around the bush. Let us have a real debate, with real facts, backed up by real sources, with real evidence. Lets examine the events of 911 closely, and we will see the facts presented by all sides, and see which side proves to be the most probable.

Id like everyone to add in fact to support your view, whatever it may be. Id like everyone to share their views on my views.

So this is what we know for sure happened on September 11, 2001. 2 planes smashed into the twin towers in NY, and 1 smashed into the Pentagon in Washington. 1 plane crashed in Pennsylvania. The twin tower complex collapses as well as a 3rd building WTC 7, which was not hit by anything. These are the basic basic facts, which can never be disputed ever. What I described above happened. (Now note, some people will say a missle hit the Pentagon, which could very well be true, but it doesnt really matter either way, so Ill say it was a plane)

Now, the reasons why it happened, and the perpetrators, that is what the debate is about. Now this debate has polarized into two sides, each with evidence to back it up. Those sides are as followed.

- 19 arabs hijacked the planes, and flew them into the buildings, on behalf of an organization called Al Queda. Al Queda committed this atrocity in an attempt to destroy the symbols of American power, to show their hate for Western civilization and our "free" way of life. They desire to encapture the world under some kind of Islamic New World Order, for in their radicalism and extremism, they want to spread the Islamic faith, by force if neccesary. (The fact that these ideas are completely contradictory to real Islam doesnt seem to bother anybody). This idea has been given to us mostly by our government and media.

And theres the other side.

-Elements of the United States government flew remote controlled planes into the towers and Pentagon, collapsed the towers with high grade explosives placed on the pillars, including that of WTC7. The reason they did this was to serve as a pretext for expansion into the Middle East, for reasons of control and profit; and to serve as a pretext for civil crackdown on sovereignty, in effect trading liberty for security, as the Elite of our world create a massive global Police State, which some people have dubbed the New World Order.

So either way, the 911 event was engineered to try and change the world and install some kind of global tyranny. Either by radical muslims or by the Elite who control our governments, also come to be known as the Illuminati.

Now keep in mind, their are other versions of what happened that day that arent too popular, but in general, these are the two main explanations, which have kind of hardened to form the 911 debate. If you believe in an alternate view I havent written here, please state your beliefs and facts, and we will add it to the debate. But for now, I will use the two theories Ive stated.

Now let us examine the basic proof to support both sides of the argument.

Now, the evidence to support the official story of 19 hijackers have in every instance come from governmental sources. The White House says this, the Pentagon says that, the FBI says this, the CIA says that. These sources then report their evidence to the mainstream media, who in turn reports it to you and I, the people.

The evidence to support the "911 was an inside job" theory, as its been dubbed, has come from many different sources, from websites, books, videos, scientists, scholars, high level politicians, including independent researchers who have taken the time out to study the facts of the event, and to dissect the official story. Through alternate media, such as the internet, and radio talk shows, and documentary films, the evidence is brought to us the people.

So on the next reply, I will state my belief and the proof I have to support that belief.

Without making this a complicated exercise I will voice just several circumstantial pieces of evidence that make me doubt the OFFICIAL STORY.

#1. Time is of the essence. So why did the hijackers leave from Boston Logan airport and not JFK? From JFK or similar, the flight time would have less time for interception.

The planes were in the air too long, I submit this fact shows that whomever did this 'knew' they would be able to.

#2. I sincerly doubt that a passport of one of the hijackers was found in the rubble of the WTC so close to the date of the disaster. I find it more reasonable to believe it was planted.

#3. They can find a tape of Bin Laden confessing so close to the events ON FILM, but they can't find him. The whole idea is ludicrous. Again, they can find the TAPE but not the man.

#4. The hijackers had lap dances and coc aine. This doesn't sound like Muslim Fanatics at all.

#5. Bush and his reaction, even though a month earlier he had a Presidential memo warning him of Bin Laden attacking INSIDE THE UNITED STATES!

The question then becomes.....Why wasn't the South Tower not evacuated as a precaution??



[edit on 6-5-2007 by talisman]

Originally posted by LightWorker13
I’m tired of beating around the bush. Let us have a real debate, with real facts, backed up by real sources, with real evidence. Lets examine the events of 911 closely, and we will see the facts presented by all sides, and see which side proves to be the most probable.

This idea, pretty much verbatim, is already being considered here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The general problem with these types of threads are that they never seem to get anywhere, and turn into 30+ page messes where any good information gets buried. If you have some neat new angle to throw into the topic, then please go ahead and post it, but if this is just going to be another “Truthers” vs. “Skeptics” fight, there are plenty out there already to post to.

Originally posted by LightWorker13
They desire to encapture the world under some kind of Islamic New World Order, for in their radicalism and extremism, they want to spread the Islamic faith, by force if neccesary. (The fact that these ideas are completely contradictory to real Islam doesnt seem to bother anybody).

I don’t think this is what they intended in the slightest. Their motivations have been pretty well stated to be that they wish the US to end its support for Israel, and US corporations to keep their interests out of their region. This is the reason they attacked both government and corporate US facilities. This had nothing to do with spreading Islam to the masses, but rather with scaring the US public so we would lobby for their demands to be met. Funny part is that it seems to have backfired on them in grand fashion, they have more US military and US corporate interests there now then before they pulled this. Serves them right IMHO, and hopefully sends the message to them that if they mess with the US things will just keep getting worse and worse for their xenophobic religious leadership.

Originally posted by LightWorker13
So either way, the 911 event was engineered to try and change the world and install some kind of global tyranny. Either by radical muslims or by the Elite who control our governments, also come to be known as the Illuminati.

Or the event was supposed to be exactly what I said above, and now the corporate military machine is in motion and taking advantage of the situation. This is not the first time this has happened either, if you’re not old enough to have been around, then ask a vet about the US corporate military machine and what it did in Vietnam. If there had not been major profit in that war, then many of those soldiers would still be alive today. I have heard countless stories from Vietnam about how generals were getting kickbacks from defense contractors to purposely put men and equipment in harms way so they could sell more equipment to replace the stuff that was destroyed.

Well lets get to facts okay.

I have researched 911 since it happened, not everyday all day, it was casual, but over the course of 6 years, I have done perhaps a thousand hours or research on this.

And as a result of this, I have come to believe that 911 was "an inside job" as is the slogan, and that yes indeed, criminal elements of our governmental intelligence agencies, controlled by our Elite, perpetrated the attacks as an excuse for civil crackdown and for an excuse for phony wars of conquest.

Facts facts and more facts, I bet your asking. How can one believe such a story without facts? Well here are the fact I have found.

FACT: During the late 90s, there was a plan created by economic and political Elitists which is called the Project For A New American Century. In their own words, they say their mission is to spread American "leadership" in global affairs. In a document written in 2000, called "Rebuilding Americas Defenses", they state that they would like to spread American influence in the Middle East, and would like to create further control of internal affairs and influence. They planned to transform the world into a world where the American powers will dominate the global scene.

In that document, there is a chapter called "Creating Tomorrows Dominant Force".

The next page, page 51, there is a quote which states "this process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, would likely be a long one, absent some catalyzing and catastrophic event, like a new Pearl Harbour Read that over again. This is fact, they even have their own website.

www.newamericancentury.org...

FACT: The people who are responsible for the creation of the PNAC documents are the SAME people who, a short time later, got into positions of power in America when the Bush Administration was "elected" into power. People like Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Gary Schmitt, and others. In fact. months after the Rebuilding Americas Defenses document was written, the Bush Administration got into power.

Within months of them getting into power, 911 happened. What did George Bush call 911 in a speech right afterwards? "Our Pearl Harbour". FACT.

FACT: There is a government declassified document called Operation Northwoods. In this document, they planned to use provocation to start a war with Communist Cuba. One of the methods for provoking this war, they had planned, could be to hijack jetliners full of American citizens, blow it up with bombs, and blame it on a missle attack by Castro. The had many different ideas for what they could do to justify military intervention in Cuba, including assassinations, subterfuge, sinking ships, kidnapping, etc etc they go thru them all. Any and all this would serve as a pretext to move into Cuba. Why this plan never materialized is beyond me, but the plan was in writing, and is now declassified.

www.whatreallyhappened.com...

(Look down the page of this link and you can find the actual declassified documents, including the provocation plans).

I even read one plan where they would hijack a plane full of people, gas the passengers to death, fly the plane to an airbase where the plane would be swapped for a similar looking plane armed with a bomb, and the plane would be flown and exploded over Cuba, to be blamed on Castro. No, I cant make it up, they really planned to do that!

FACT: It is possible to control a plane via electronic control. There is a system that exists called Global Hawk that is utilized by the US Air Force.
The basics logic for this technology is to control the navigation systems of planes, by computers instead of by pilots. Through this method, they have had air craft flights all across the globe, one example was from the US to Australia, without pilots...all done by computers. Here is just one link, where youll find the basic info.

www.airforce-technology.com...

Apparently, they have been developing this technology for decades, and had the power to do it in the 60s. Indeed, one of the provocation methods described in the aforementioned NORTHWOODS document including flying remote controlled drones into Cuban skies and initiate a response attack.

So, if they had this ability back in the 60s, and have has 40 years to perfect it, God knows what the capabilities are now.

So, it is not completely ridiculous to believe that the government had the power to fly computer controlled planes into the Towers.

So lets summarize so far. My position is the US establishment flew computer controlled planes into the towers for the effect, demolished the towers and building 7 with explosives, and flew a similar plane into the Pentagon.

They are capable of doing it, they have the technology for it with the Global Hawk. That is a fact. They planned to do similar provocation methods to serve as pretext for war in the past, that is fact. They planned to do 911 anyways, as mentioned in their PNAC writings, a year before 911 happened, this is fact.

If they didnt do it, they surely knew about it before it happened.

FACT: The United States received numerous pre 911 warnings from many sources.

NSA Intercepts On Eve of 911 Sent a Warning

Condi Rice warned September 6 of attacks

FBI ignored leads

NY times pulled Al Queda Warning

US ignored warnings from French

Britain warned of hi-jackers weeks before 911

There are many more you can check out at this link.

www.prisonplanet.com...

More on the next post.





[edit on 6-5-2007 by LightWorker13]

Originally posted by defcon5

This idea, pretty much verbatim, is already being considered here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The general problem with these types of threads are that they never seem to get anywhere, and turn into 30+ page messes where any good information gets buried. If you have some neat new angle to throw into the topic, then please go ahead and post it, but if this is just going to be another “Truthers” vs. “Skeptics” fight, there are plenty out there already to post to.

Thanks D5, I was about to say a li'l something like that. But hey go for it. I'd prob' be on your side, LightWorker, I dig your stance and approach I've seen so far. But I'll sit this out unless something real interesting happens.

The reason the pre 911 warnings are so important is it SHOWS that the government was lying, because when 911 happened, they said they had no idea it was going to happen, they were caught completely by surprise. Then people said well what about all the warnings, and they said oh we missed those, but no big deal. Crazy.

The government said that fires and fuel melted the steel that caused the towers to collapse. But yet in the rubble, they find a hijackers passport, intact, which survives the explosion and the collapse.

911research.wtc7.net...

From this passport, they were able to get the names of the 18 other hijackers, their bios, their plans, and pictures, everything, in less than 36 hours....when they said they had no idea it was going to happen.

This is the main proof the official story has to support the hijacker theory, the passport, and to believe that a passport can survive all that, and out of all the passports, a hijackers...is completely ridiculous.

And did you know that on the proof for the 7/7 bombings that linked the event to Al Queda....you guess it, passports! What a coincidence!

Anyways, let us move on.

It is a FACT, that at least 7 of the supposed 911 hijackers were found alive and well after 911.

911research.wtc7.net...

911review.org...

news.bbc.co.uk...

There are many other links, Ill leave it to you to go look them up.

Upon being questioned about this, the government simply said "that was a mistake, were sorry" and then they shut up about it! Never mentioned again!

FACT: Al Queda is a creation of the CIA. In 1979, the CIA founded Al Queda to help the muja-hadeen fight the Soviet expansion in Afghanistan. They armed and funded them up until the late 1990s, and Al Queda was the named given to them by the CIA meaning "the Base" which is a insider name for the CIA.

www.guardian.co.uk...

www.conspiracyarchive.com...

news.bbc.co.uk...

FACT: Osama Bin Laden was once employed by the CIA, in fact his code name with them was Tim Osmand.

www.whatreallyhappened.com...

news.bbc.co.uk...

Now please, dont just dismiss all these links, go read the information provided, read it in detail.

I think there is more than enough for now. These are some of the main reasons why we believe that 911 was an inside job.

-Because the government planned to do similar events before
-Because there were plans to do it a year before
-Because of the odd way in which the towers collapsed
-Because of the inconsistencies of the official story
-Because of the fact that the only people to benefit in any way from these attacks is the government
-Because Al Queda and Bin Laden have already been shown to be creations of our intelligence agencies.
-Because of the fact that the government has been caught before and after, llying about so many things, what makes you think they wouldnt lie about 911

Hey Im here to debate okay, if you dont want to participate because you think its a waste of time, thats not my problem. If you dont want to get involved because other people already have talked about this, well thats not my problem either.

Im here to go through it, in detail, and I havent even gone in detail. I wish I can go into detail, but it would be far too much writing, Hell, it takes hours for me to even talk about it, and I mean that literally.

So again, you can read thats fine, but I invite all people who wanna add in to support my view, or wanna add in to contradict my view, or add in to support your own view.

I want to see facts though! Please, dont just come rambling to me about how Im a conspiracy nut job for thinking 911 is an inside job, you tell me why you think that, you provide facts to disprove my theory, and you bring facts to support yours. I want a real in depth intellectual debate. Not some little thing to be scanned over, because most people dont go into depth about anything, they scan the surface only.


[edit on 7-5-2007 by LightWorker13]

Originally posted by talisman
Without making this a complicated exercise I will voice just several circumstantial pieces of evidence that make me doubt the OFFICIAL STORY.

#1. Time is of the essence. So why did the hijackers leave from Boston Logan airport and not JFK? From JFK or similar, the flight time would have less time for interception.

The planes were in the air too long, I submit this fact shows that whomever did this 'knew' they would be able to.

#2. I sincerly doubt that a passport of one of the hijackers was found in the rubble of the WTC so close to the date of the disaster. I find it more reasonable to believe it was planted.

#3. They can find a tape of Bin Laden confessing so close to the events ON FILM, but they can't find him. The whole idea is ludicrous. Again, they can find the TAPE but not the man.

#4. The hijackers had lap dances and coc aine. This doesn't sound like Muslim Fanatics at all.

#5. Bush and his reaction, even though a month earlier he had a Presidential memo warning him of Bin Laden attacking INSIDE THE UNITED STATES!

The question then becomes.....Why wasn't the South Tower not evacuated as a precaution??



[edit on 6-5-2007 by talisman]

I agree with all these points, and just further reinforces my belief that the 911 was an inside job: because there are just so many questions and gaping holes in the official story that have never been answered.

Until these basic hard questions can be answered, I dont see any reason to believe the government, especially when they have a HISTORY of lying to the people!

And, well the government says that they are radical muslims who want to take over the world, this tis the big threat we are supposedly facing by them. This is the story they have been pushing since the beginning, that radical muslims want to create a global totalitarian system. Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, all the neo-cons, all these people, this is what they say.

In my humble innocence, I assumed that the government might of been telling the truth when they say they believed arabs extremists want to destroy our way of life, so they can take over the world. If you didnt know that is the government version of what the extremists want, you should know!


[edit on 7-5-2007 by LightWorker13]