9/11 Red Herring Free-For-All!

Here’s your one stop shop to engage in, or deflect Red Herring arguments to from specific topic threads!

The Problem
Most of the important specific topic threads I’ve observed recently have been taken over and destroyed by Red Herring arguments. For those who aren’t aware:

The phrase red herring has a number of specific metaphorical meanings, all sharing a general concept: something being a diversion or distraction from the original objective.
en.wikipedia.org...

For example, in the recent ‘Explosive Audio’ thread, the main topic is a video that has different ‘versions’ and one of them has what sounds very much like explosions in it. While trying to get to the bottom of where this audio came from, and which is authentic, many from the “Skeptics” (social group) camp have tried eradicating the engaging discussion with Red Herrings.

The Solution
Recently, I’ve begun starting new threads to either avoid causing Re Herrings in threads with larger topics, or to deflect others Red Herrings into. Then I simply link in the new thread instead of engaging in a vast discussion of an off topic. That is even the case with this thread, which is aimed at the primary substance of the typical Red Herring…

Let The Games Begin!

Our opening arguments, from this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Skeptics like me, who have proven you wrong on countless threads, websites, and other forums…

Bravo. Your use of langauge is very telling. “Skeptics like me” makes it rather plain and obvious that you’re not simply saying that your “skeptical”, but rather that you yourself is a ”Skeptic”. What this means, whether you even realize it or not, is that you have self-identified yourself with the de facto social group, “the Skeptics” (note the capitol S).

To be “skeptical” is one thing:

Skeptic
1. Of or pertaining to a sceptic or skepticism; characterized
by skepticism; hesitating to admit the certainly of
doctrines or principles; doubting of everything.
dict.die.net...

But to be a Skeptic is another:

To understand this we must look to other polar ideological social groups. The best clear cut examples are “Republicans” and “Democrats”. When tested in fMRI brain scans, and shown contradiction of their party’s leader, the subjects (from each side) we’re scientifically observed neurlogically self-deceiving themselves.
www.abovepolitics.com...

There’s little reason to conclude that this same concepts wouldn’t apply here to this other social ideological group scenario. So in effect, when you admit that you’re part of this social group, you’re not simply skeptical of all things, you’re skeptical of conspiracies in general.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
This actually defies the definition of “skeptical”, as you only doubt one side, and have made up your mind on the rest. Furthermore, considering our fMRI example, you probably self-decieved yourself here to maintain your ideal reality, just like any politically biased person would.

You may find it striking that your brains reward centers fire when you do this. We’ll use the fact that you engaged is the most worthy Red Herring, to be able to deflect the fact that there’s an unanswered issue with this tape, as evidence that this is the case with you.

The important part for my case here is the ideological social group affiliation, because social groups have a subjective effect on the minds of people within them. What happens is the person self-identifies with the social group, and then when the group is challenged or 'attacked', it's as if you 'attack' the person that has self-identified with that group, in the irrational mind of the subject of that group anyways. So that means, to show that you are irrational and delusional, I must further demonstrate that this is the ideological social group bias complex exists in you:

Remeber the reaction to those idiots who were disgraceful enough to walk around NYC with a sign that said "911 was the gov" or something like that? REAL new yorkers (who probably lived through it, unlike the rest of these "truth" posers) came up and screamed in your face "---- you". That's how we feel about you guys.

Case closed.

You may be well-versed enough to declare ad hominem at this point, however you clearly engaged in this first against the ‘other’ polar social group , along with your other fallacies, while deflecting / ignoring the topic case evidence, so clearly it’s not actual ad hominem for me to assess your own motives.

There's no conspirocy except the one you create in your mind.

Sure. There really are people [A] who are hardlined and create things in their minds, or more specifically irrationally hold onto certain beliefs to make the evidence “fit” their preconceptions. Then there are some of us [B] who are skeptical and want to rationally get to the bottom of things, no matter what the truth is. Lastly, there are those [C] who create the reality where “conspiracies don’t exist”, and then they proceed to interpret information under the framework of those preconceptions. The only difference between A and C is the opposite ends of the spectrum. I’ve physically observed people from the C camp who we’re more irrational.


Inductive Reasoning:

The US is incapable of winning a war in stupid sand ridden iraq, vs a bunch of scattered terrorists. So they are now powerful enough to keep 911 a secret?

en.wikipedia.org...
I guess that may only count as “weak” induction, since you didn’t use absolutist terminology.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

But to answer your arguments:
How do you take something -that if was a “conspiracy”- would have been well planned and carried out by a cabal of deeply embedded powerful elitists, and compare it with an unpredictable war in lands where that were primed for cival war before we even showed up? Who ever said tha the goal was to “win” the war, and what would we even consider “winning” to be? Even if we “win”, there will still be permanent military bases present and “we” will be the de facto ruling establishment there.

They are powerful enough to keep 911 a secret when nixon couldn't even hide watergate?

Nixon couldn’t keep his dirt secret.
Therefore nobody else can.
= Inductive Reasoning.

Moving on:

The american government is actually quite weak.

The US establishment is the most powerful entity in the world... and that the world has ever seen. Do we really need to break out some public figures on military and HLS spending? Have you ever seen an aircraft carrier?

Um, yeah. “We” have 12+ “supercarriers”, where no other nation has more than than one.

THe american people would be appalled to find out how weak the gov really is.

Wrong, the American people would be appalled to learn the truth, which is actually right on the surface, about the fact that “we’re” the worlds ruling imperialist state. This nation is everything that we rebelled against in 1776, and everything this nation has been against all these years in all of these wars. You can begin here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 27-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

The fact is that some people are dumb and belive everything the glowing square box says. Doesn't mean they are "sheeple" just because they won't belive you're lies about 911.

You’re right, that narrow definitions alone wouldn’t make someone a sheeple. Most people seem to “follow” so to speak, especially better leaders in various concepts. Oftentimes people don’t even realize whatever follower instincts they allow to operate. A true sheeple are those who not only blindly follow, but even continue to so even after being shown the error of their ways along with reason to not do to so anymore. You can often judge the scale of sheepledom of the character by how irrationally they hold onto the ideal realities that facilitate the following of whatever authority. While we’re on the subject, I find it interesting how “Skeptics” can be observed appealing to authority on virtually every ‘official story’ across the board.
en.wikipedia.org...

The government is not "silencing" anyone.

Oh, but they have and still are:
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.cooperativeresearch.org...
video.google.com...

Think it's not a scam? Tell alex jones, 911 mysteries, loose change, and other "truthers" to STOP PROFITING FROM THEIR MATERIAL.

‘People are making money from something, therefore it is a scam.’
Nevermind that we line in a capitalist system, or that they promote free distribution of their truth related info.

Cleaning up:

The fact that thousands of government officials, with the help of regular citizens would willingly murder 3000 people is fantasy.

1] Hate to break it to you, but vast conspiracy happen all of the time:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
2] They wouldn’t murder 3000 people to achieve their goals? More than that have already been sacrificed in Iraq, which just so happens to be the ambitions and goals of the very same people overtly in control, who if there was a 911 conspiracy the Iraq phase of their PNAC would have been one if their benefits.
How about Vietnam? There 58,000+ Americans were sacrificed in that imperialist venture.
Those 2 examples aren’t even counting the millions dead on the ‘other side’, not do they even begin to get into the millions dead for the rest of the endless examples of murder and death for the establishments imperial conquests.



Alright, now Red Herring all of that…

[edit on 27-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Excellent work, bro! Very impressive work! We could use a few more like you! I wish i had the time to compile stuff like this...

Thats the problem, really. This is the tactic these 'debunkers' rely on -- bury you in so much bull# that its impossible to dig yourself out and get back to the actual debate. They derail the thread with bogus arguments that require you to meticulously deflate each and every minute detail of while they continue to pile on rampant conjecture about this garbage explanation or some other piece of trash. If you can keep this up, maybe they will give up.

Unfortunately, you're target audience will likely dodge this with another red herring.

They're trolls.

Thanks.
It's even come down to red herring worthy attempts at arguing about the links I've linked in to push the diversionary dialog to it's own proper forum. The one case kept trying to drag the argument out while refusing to argue his point in the focus thread. Some of these cases really make you wonder about the motives involved...

[edit on 28-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Well, i think that they believe that ignorance is bliss. It never fails to surprise me how willing people are to keep themselves buried in their ignorance.

I mean, its pretty darn painful to deal with this subject. I was suspicious as soon as i found out about 9/11... how did our air defenses not respond? Why wasnt anybody fired? Why did the buildings collapse like that?

However, i kept myself buried in ignorance for a couple of years afterwards. I was a flag waiving, blood-thirsty patriot like everybody else.

When i finally denied my ignorance, it was not easy. It was actually quite painful.

I have tons of arguments about ignorance not being bliss.
For example,
Say you feel your cars tranny slipping.
You can either ignore it, or you can go pay about $80 for a fluid/filter change, and probably save your tranny.
Or, you can ignore it, and then pay $1500+ to fix it when it breaks, but to make matters worse, you might not have enough money saved up to afford it, because you ignored the problem. Ignorance may feel bliss, but that's only a subjective and often delusional reality.
EDIT: Said delusional reality is itself the very essence of Ignorance Itself.

It does take time for your brain to adjust to the new reality, and that's if you're actually open to entertaining the new idea.
The mind is resistant to change, and that's neuroscience. Practice makes perfect, and that's neuroscience. These concepts are inherent before you apply subjective ideological social group biases.


[edit on 28-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Ok the skeptical vs skeptic thing. You're twisting that because while i did supposedly call myself a "skeptic", that doesn't mean that i think all conspirocys are bogus. Here's the deal, some things in life are a valid conspirocy. I'll use my own example. I got beat up by 12 cops and to cover up the misjustice, they formed a consiprocy to create phony charges against me and try to put me behind bars. That was a conspirocy, which fortunatley for me didn't work.

Conspirocys in general usually involve a small group of people trying to obtain a goal. Lets look at something like the Kennedy Assassination, which has a decent amount of "evidence" that it might have been a conspirocy. There was a small group of people (probably 100 or less) who conspired to take down 1 man. That's why conspirocys work. You can't have huge groups of people, because when you involve lots of people..it's harder to obtain a clear goal.

Now when you look at 9-11..it's really hard to see a conspirocy, because you are requiring literally thousands of people to go along with it..really to gain what? The 9-11 conspirocy requires you to belive that government officials (both low and high ranking officials), demolition companies, regular demolitionists, normal people (citizens on the planes), police, firefighters (because their the ones who had to "pull" building 7), larry silverstien, FEMA, the "Terrorists" (which for some reason people think are still alive or didnt' exist), the al quadea, and the entire media of both the USA and Britain, to go along with the killing and coverup of 3000 people??? To me that's absurd.

It's absurd because take the media for example, they are regular people who if they are lucky are making $60, 000 a year. The government doesn't control the media quite as much as you think. I hear these stories that the media released that building 7 fell before it did..well the problem with this is that if you are trying to buy the media..you would have to give at least a few million to thousands of people to get their compliance. Now multiply those thousands of people at 1 station, and then increase that number by over half a million..because that's how many people work in the professional media.

Also..how are you going to buy off the demolition companies? "please rig the WTC to explode..thanks" Again, you are talking about something that require millions of dollars to buy off the people..and of course in the faith that NONE of these people would be moral..and tell on the gov.

The problem is that the operation on behalf of the government would take literally trillions of dollars, and the faith that thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of people would completley keep their mouth shut.

Sorry, i don't buy that.

Because it makes more sense, that a rouge group of terrorists (all in all, 100+ people), conspire to do something dastardly..which fits the mold of conspirocy better.

So no, i do belive there are conspirocys..but i don't belive that the "Truth" version of 9-11, makes more sense than the "official" version.

About the conspirocy of the mind, here's a better question: what has the government gained? An 8 year war? Patriot Act? The lowest approval rating for a president ever? A divided country? Having the world Hate America more than ever before?

Yeah those crooks sure gained a lot. You say that you want to get to the bottom of things rationally, but rational logic is thrown out the window when you start trying to imply that larry silverstien wanted the WTC7 demolished to make some insurance money..when in reality the cost of rebuilding the site would be more than the insurance he got paid. Also, his building were doing fine. think about all the money he's losing every year by paying for the actual land. He has no building, and is literally losing millions a year because there are no officies that he can charge for rent space. So old larry wouldn't ant the WTC7 taken down, beacuse it's more profitable to him being up and running!

So no, i have a problem with yalls "logic", when clearly there are holes in your most simplest arguements. larry gains nothing by blowing up WTC7, because even with the big payout..he still doesn't make any more money than he would have made if the buildings were fine..and also in the end probably is losing what he would have made.

About iraq..of course the USA thought they would win..that was the biggest mistake they made. Bush was arrogant and probably though "aw man it's just some sand terrorists and saddam, yehaw lets go bomb em and come back and ride some horses!". But all joking aside, America itself found out they are not as powerfulas they thought.

They got into iraq, and now have made a second vietnam by not being able to control the situation. so you expect me to belive this all mighty government can possibly pull together the man power and money to commit 9-11, when they can barley keep a few thousand soljdiers stable in a tiny country?

And furthermore, people say that this will lead to some kind of police state..put it this way..if we can't control iraq, what makes you think the gov can control an entire country thats what 5 times the size of iraq? more? No the governement is quite weak. Just because we are the biggest ecnomic super power, and well armed..does NOT mean we have the capability to rule the world and enslave humanity.

So yes the government is very weak. when you really think about it.

On sheeple. Well yeah some people are slaved followers and always will be. But it's not that skeptics follow what the government says either. IT's about presenting enough factual evidence to convince someone of your wild theories. Don't blame us. Blame people like stupid alex jones, that malnipulate people. How does AJ malnipulate people? Look at the rosie story. He blasts the headlines "ROSIE RELEASE CAUSE OF 9-11 STATEMENT", When both Rose and ABC themselves said that it was due to a contract negotation. The fact is that ABC offered her a lot of money over 3 years, and she was just greedy and wanted it all in 1 year. That's not conspirocy, that's rosie being a fat greedy pig. So for Jones to then make it out to seem like she's being "silenced", is obvious malnipulation. And this is the man that supposedly fights for "truth"? Dispicable. He's the lowest of the low.

And while we're taking about people being silenced..i read your articles..they are interesting, but what other sources do you have other than wikipedia? Sorry but wiki is factually inaccurate a lot of the time. It's maintained by regular people, so the info may..or may not be true. Do you have any scholorly or published articles from REPUATBLE sources? I've been on the internet for 10 years...so convicing me to belive something from a "wiki" is gonna be hard. It's ok evidence, but find me a story of a demolition worker who had his family kidnapped and tourted because he tried to come clean about placing charges in the WTC..then we'll talk.

Now back to jones..how is he not scamming people? BUY MY BOOK OR DVD FOR THE FULL STORY. COME SEE SPECIAL VERSION OF 9-11 MYSTERIES ONLY AVALIBLE ON DVD. So those people aren't con artists right? IF they were so "truth" they would release all their matierial for free, not peieces. Heck alex jones wouldn't even sell movies, books, t-shirts..and whatever else he sells if hew as so "good" at heart, and just "Wanted the truth".

The fact is that alex jones is a proven liar and scam artist. HE creates these works..because he knows they will [B]sell[/B]. That's the bottom line. Actually he is guilty of doing what you claim the professional media does. He uses [B]fear[/B] by making you think the government is all evil..and then uses that fear to make you belive in whatever it is he's selling, or saying. So he's no better than the media that you claim to "hate" and you also claim to have been involved in covering up 9-11.

Alex jones is no better or worse than FOX news, actually he's probably worse because at least FOX doesn't make you pay to see slaughtered citizens exploited.

Ok now for the last quote. There's a difference between using your military as pawns (vietnam/iraq) and slaughtering innocent civilians (9-11). The government exploits it's military, not murders it's citizens to achieve politcal gain. That's what vietnam and iraq are. They are "sacrificing" these people, who have willingly signed up to be part of the war. Therefore, it's not the same as saying "hey, lets kill a bunch of husbands, wives, daughters, and sons..to make a little money and go bomb saddam". Sorry man i'm not buying it. Yeah the government is evil but i mean, thousands of people (which i already explained a long time ago) would NOT go along with a conspirocy to see innocent people massacred like animals..all to gain a little money.

So yes, i am a skeptic/skeptical/disinfo agent/sheep..whatever you want to label me. But the fact is that until someone shows me some hard visible proof (not twisted lies and fabricated events), then i'll have no choice but to go with, what all the factual and logical evidence tells me to belive, and what i saw with my own eyes, and belive that 9-11 was NOT a conspirocy.

This last post is a perfect example of how someone "buys" a version, and stops saking himself, and researching himself, and proving and disproving your own hipothesis.

Myself I doubt both camps, but after a lot of reading, my own eexperience, and theinfo I have (call it education, instruction or exposure to certain situations) I have really big doubts about the "official" version. Lets say I have a 65-75% towards an inside job and 25-35% towards a "coup de etat" that sealed the faith of more than 3000 in 9/11 and a whole lot more on Iraq ...

You dont believe Alex Johnes because he is the mdeia and a liar, ok, but can you say that Fox news is not? in that case that the other media and agencies are not pushing some agenda?

A perfect example is portrayed in the movie "The fugitive" with harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Johnnes.
Tommyy Lee (Agent Gerard) sees a brochure by the pharmaceutical company and see that hey won BILLIONS of dollars and he says " this company is a monster", then he realises that what he is after is not just a murder but a conspiracy by a large company with HUGE power trying to take adventage from a failed product..likewise huge media companies earn BILLIONS while being agents of the information and versions that will keep the status quo, ergo their BIG MONEY...

That is why I call them zombies, they work, what T.V. never question the government, the media, the mainstream, they just move along with what is FEED too them..like....zombies.

BTW this is a WATS original post IgnoranceIsntBlisss thanks for the very good info...nicely put!

A skeptic, not I kind sir.

No as Spawn has posted, I believe what I saw.

I saw 3 building fall in a symetrical fashion. I saw them fall in a very very short time.

I saw, in my estimation 2" to 2-1/2" thick columns on the ground, and I am fed a bad tomato of a story that a airplane cause these massive columns to fail, 100% to the ground. Simply IMPOSSIBLE.

9-11 is not what has been spewed as the truth. There are way to many questions to answer before this little giant of a tale goes to bed.

No a skeptic I am not, a sheepal I am not. Perhaps to some very intellegent individuals I may be the fool, but I argue to the contrare.

Common sense says that planes do not destroy giant steel structures.

Common sense says that fire does not bring down buildings made of steel and concrete.

Hell, just yesterday in Houston texas a 18 wheeler loaded with diesel actually caught fire and ignited under a overpass. No, I repeat no major structure damage was done. As soon as the debris was removed, traffic started driving on the "damaged" overpass.

Good Luck in deflecting the Red Herring posters, A good luck to those of us that only want the real truth, whatever that truth might be.

This thread is not really about whether you believe the official story or not. This thread is about the strategies used to argue your beliefs.

Spawwwwwwn, if you dont believe the conspiracy theories, great! That is up to you. I dont want to force my opinion on anybody. The problem is when you start claiming to have debunked all of the conspiracy theories when you clearly have not. I am dying for somebody to prove the official theory. I want to trust my government.

If you say there is not enough evidence to prove conspiracy then focus on that in your debates. You cant just blatantly assert that you have disproven or debunked the conspiracies. Dont deflect with comments like, 'its impossible to pull it off' unless you can actually prove it was impossible. Those types of [baseless] absolutist statements do not constitute 'proof' that the CT's have been debunked.

real demolitions


why do you run edited videos that clearly show not "squibs" but a display of velocity. You can't use a 15 second clip, because things were burning and exploding over WTC during the entire attack.

Where was the guy who pressed DETONATE. ? Why couldn't some Muslims believe in a cause strong enough to kill? You talk about many videos, but these are videos.

Money folding? Wingdings? All everyday items people would distort to make their vision real. The government covered up one thing, and that is their ability to handle the situation.

They start a war they can't finish, and get people to bandwagon by using the post popular theme at that time. The NYC people probably would fight a lot of "truth" organizations, but the fact is that THE GOVERNMENT PROTECTED THESE PEOPLE. If there were no cops, those truthers might have been beat down in the street. A horrible scenario, but that video of the reaction from a new Yorker to truth, was a better sign to me of how people “remember” 9-11.

Bush couldn’t respond because he was weak. That’s why it took a minute for him to leave. The secret is that if people in the government wanted to kill George Bush, they could do it. But there is a colossal difference between capping him, and murdering many civilians.

If you want to look at it from a historical perspective, they are trying to save themselves. The Iraq war is a horrible stain on American history. They would not want the Iraq war to happen again, but they couldn’t save it from being compared to Vietnam. The secret is that USA is vulnerable to terrorist attacks, wars, and bombings. That is what the USA government doesn’t want you to know. Wanna buy prison planet DVDs, and believe the USA is all powerful? Go ahead, it helps them distract you even more from the real issue.

The terrorists that committed 9-11 trained hard. They ran through sand 100 miles a day to have the strength to overpower a plane full of people. I feel yall are scared to admit someone has that much hate in themselves. I also feel yall are scared to admit that someone has that type of dedication.

It’s easier to accept 9-11 as a conspiracy because we all want to believe that we are the greatest. Nobody but our own people could pull of a feat as great as the one we have witnessed today. It is a nice belief. But out in the real world there are people who suicide bomb themself because they hate Israel and America. That notion is 1000 times harder to accept, then the fact that USA blew us all up.

If you think I buy the lies, then you are mistaken.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
You can't have huge groups of people, because when you involve lots of people..it's harder to obtain a clear goal.

No? How about the fact that the US is the worlds Global Imperialist State? This nation is everything it rebelled aginst in 1776, and everything its been against for the past 60 or so years. This is ongoing, nonstop. The real kicker is that we basically always have been. The real story is that virtually nobody knows, hundreds of millions of people have no concept of this, and the few that do think it's something new thanks to GWB, as if he's the first imperialist. The fact that we always have been is important, because millions have died and multiple genocides have occured thanks to US involvment, but 'nobody' knows? How can your theory be real, when the truth about this nation is so glaring, yet so unseen?

Now when you look at 9-11..it's really hard to see a conspirocy, because you are requiring literally thousands of people to go along with it..really to gain what?

Read above.
Says who?
Total global imperial domination. If you don't understand American Imperialism you'll have a hard time understanding that Iraq is only an overt conflict. Most are 'unseen'.

The 9-11 conspirocy requires you to belive that

Nice logic...
1. Loose Change offers some theories about 911, and it has been seen many times.
2. Therefore, what is said in Loose Change is The 911 "conspiracy", if there was "one".
3. Debunk / dismiss Loose Change, and no more conspiracy.
4. Anyone who does believe that 911 was or could have been a "conspircy" is obviously nuts for believing Loose Change.

firefighters (because their the ones who had to "pull" building 7),

Who said they weren't just following orders?

and the entire media of both the USA and Britain, to go along with the killing and coverup of 3000 people??? To me that's absurd.

They've been covering up the murder deaths and genocide of millions of people worldwide, for decades. Do you know anything about the "Cold War'? If you do not, then you'll have a very hard time making sense of 911.

The government doesn't control the media quite as much as you think.

The same interests that control the media control the government.

Now multiply those thousands of people at 1 station, and then increase that number by over half a million..because that's how many people work in the professional media.

Wow, so thousands work at 'one station'? So if some media were to cover something up, then that means everyone in the profession would too? Logical fallacy list anyone?
www.google.com...

Also..how are you going to buy off the demolition companies? "please rig the WTC to explode..thanks"

So some videos suggest that Demo Inc. was involved. Does that mean they were involved, or had to be for bombs to have been used? Perhaps. Or perhaps black ops agents did it. These same shadow loyalist elements could have infiltrated tyhe company as well.

The problem is that the operation on behalf of the government would take literally trillions of dollars,

Where's your math on this????

So no, i do belive there are conspirocys..but i don't belive that the "Truth" version of 9-11, makes more sense than the "official" version.

There goes that Loose Change = the-only-conspiracy logic, again. I didn't know there was an official "truth version". I thought it was there are tons of unanswered questions and thing sthat dont add up, and lot sof people theorizing to make up for those flaws, who are all in general trying to get a real ivestigation to settle it?

About the conspirocy of the mind, here's a better question: what has the government gained? An 8 year war? Patriot Act? The lowest approval rating for a president ever? A divided country? Having the world Hate America more than ever before?

The stage is set for centralized power, and total global domination. And then there's an even scarier benefit that you're probably not aware of...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

So no, i have a problem with yalls "logic", when clearly there are holes in your most simplest arguements.

There goes that inductive reasoning again:
1.Many 911 'truthers' imply that WTC7 was a demo.
2. Therefore, anyone who challenges the official story / wants a new investigation absolutely believe that too.


About iraq..of course the USA thought they would win..that was the biggest mistake they made.

"They" already have 'won'. It's about control, and destablization. Even if we "win", in the conservative sense of the word, there will still be permanent military bases there. Even if we "lose", in the liberal sense of the word, there will still be permanent military bases there.

people say that this will lead to some kind of police state..

"Legally", it already is.

put it this way..if we can't control iraq, what makes you think the gov can control an entire country thats what 5 times the size of iraq?

Technology. Moreover, controlling the minds of the people, which they do quite well, and have for overlapping generations.

more? No the governement is quite weak. Just because we are the biggest ecnomic super power, and well armed..does NOT mean we have the capability to rule the world and enslave humanity.

It already does rule the world. Iraq was just cleaning up one the few remaining 'seperatists' who woulnd't obey and conform. Iran is one of the few left. You have much to learn about the way the world is, but since you havent been following up on my links here so far it may take you awhile to get there.

Originally posted by sp00n1
This thread is not really about whether you believe the official story or not. This thread is about the strategies used to argue your beliefs.

Technically, it's a Celebration of Red Herring.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
And while we're taking about people being silenced..i read your articles..they are interesting, but what other sources do you have other than wikipedia? Sorry but wiki is factually inaccurate a lot of the time. It's maintained by regular people, so the info may..or may not be true.

Wikipedia is a portal, and those links have numerous "Notes". Arguments like that are a copout when the sources are all linked in and there's no dispute (especially since more "Skeptics" keep up on the 911 stuff there).

It's ok evidence, but find me a story of a demolition worker who had his family kidnapped and tourted because he tried to come clean about placing charges in the WTC..then we'll talk.

So if that doesnt happen that means no conspiracy right???

Now back to jones..how is he not scamming people? BUY MY BOOK OR DVD FOR THE FULL STORY. COME SEE SPECIAL VERSION OF 9-11 MYSTERIES ONLY AVALIBLE ON DVD. So those people aren't con artists right? IF they were so "truth" they would release all their matierial for free, not peieces. Heck alex jones wouldn't even sell movies, books, t-shirts..and whatever else he sells if hew as so "good" at heart, and just "Wanted the truth".

So he/they should do ALL of their work for free? They're not allowed to have ANY income related to their efforts (which in turn enables them to be able to reach more people)?

HAVE you ever made a video???????? Do you have any idea how much time and expertese it takes? It took me OVER a month to make my 17minute TYWS video, but it took about a year to do the research. I got away with not having to pay for anything for the materials and skated by using crap equipment (and no camera), but that is probably hardly the case with many of the bigger videos that do offer a dvd for purchase.

I didn't know there was a special version of 911 Mysteries (I have it on DVD, and I didn't have to pay for it), I'm going to have to look into that (to add to the collection and I doubt they'll be suing me for downloading it from places lie conspiracycentral were they could have it removed). So again, thes epeope are scam artists because they gain incoem from what they do, despite virtually all of their materials being promoted as free distribution??? You act like it's Dr. Jack Van Impe, who is amongst the best at biblical prophecy, wher eif he's right then it's far more important than 911 conspiracies, yet you CANNOT know his version of the "truth" unless you buy his videos. 'Whew damn get out the torches and pitchforks!' Moreover, your logic would almost indicate that everyone in this capitalist society are con scam artists.

The fact is that alex jones is a proven liar and scam artist.

O, my bad... er wait, I thought it wa severyone?

Think it's not a scam? Tell alex jones, 911 mysteries, loose change, and other "truthers" to STOP PROFITING FROM THEIR MATERIAL.

There it is. I guess it just depends on what your trying to argue?

In any case, AJ could be a liar. He could also be irrationally biased in his beliefs as I specified in the OP here. It's important to note that one doenst have to be emotionally attached to a social group like I mentioned, as the irrational concept I laid out is general human behavior with virtually any important beliefs. The social group aspect only makes this concept even more powerful, and I was sure to include it to build a perfect argument about YOU, but a social group element does apply to AJ's case as well. His emotional demeanor with all of this could seem to indiacte that the irrational attachment to beliefs is the case (have you heard him on the radio?), but that doesnt mean he's wrong about EVERYTHING (see logical fallacy list).

Ok now for the last quote. There's a difference between using your military as pawns (vietnam/iraq) and slaughtering innocent civilians (9-11).

In Vietnam they instituted a draft. They drafted and slaughtered 58,000 Americans in their imperial conquests, and MILLIONS on the other side were slaughtered as well.

You don't seem to understand human social group domination dynamics very well. See here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 28-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

[edit on 28-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Spawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn,

You're last post again was RH type gibberish. Its funny how you cherry pick the most obnoxious BS and throw it all together in a broad stroke of strawmanism.

You cant debate what we have said so you debate what we havent?

Money folding? Wingdings? WTF does that have to do with anything? Where was any of that crap in this post?

For all i know, the proponents of the wingdings theory were likely debunkers pretending to be truthers so they could discredit the movement with that crap. That way, whenever they are shown video that could possibly show squibs and controlled demolition, they can change the subject to avoid needing to address the issue.

Nice.

Then you turn to those emotionally charged rescue hero language to once again deflect from debating the issue. You attempt to tarnish truthers with supposedly disrespecting these hereos simply because they want the truth? How does seeking justice for these people somehow disrespect them or their families?

Thank you spawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn for an excellent demonstration of everything that is wrong with debunker tactics. I couldnt have done a better job myself!

Hey spawwwwwn,

Does popular mechanics do its articles for free? Do they sell their books for free?

Do mainstream movies like 9/11 and WTC and Flight 93 all go out for free?

Do debunker websites run ads? OMG its a conspiracy!

Well, the fact that they rake in HUGE (and I repeat HUGE) profits, according to Spawwwns logic, they are criminal liar scam artists. Also following Spawwns logic, there's no way the official version is true since they make more money!!




Whatever. I do find it interesting that Flight 93 happened to have just hit video rental shelves at around the same time when the WTC movie hit the threatres... both on about the 5th aniversary of 911.

Hey, doesnt this mean Blockbuster must be in on the conspiracy since they rented DVD's?

[edit on 28-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by Spawwwn
About iraq..of course the USA thought they would win..that was the biggest mistake they made. Bush was arrogant and probably though "aw man it's just some sand terrorists and saddam, yehaw lets go bomb em and come back and ride some horses!". But all joking aside, America itself found out they are not as powerfulas they thought.

They got into iraq, and now have made a second vietnam by not being able to control the situation. so you expect me to belive this all mighty government can possibly pull together the man power and money to commit 9-11, when they can barley keep a few thousand soljdiers stable in a tiny country?

Three words destroys that entire argument and anything that could follow it:
"Shock & Awe"
en.wikipedia.org...

Yes ignorance and you are proving why i say there is a lot wrong with 9-11 truthers, because all you've done is distort my words.

You can't cite invisible wars as evidence 9-11 as a conspirocy. There's racisim alive in america, but youdon't see people bitching about that as much on this forum..do you? Why is it so hard to comprehend that the USA does not control the world. That is the problem with americans. They think they, and their nation..are the center of the universe. America is a small part of a global population. The most people in the world actually live in china. So globally the USA has a very small impact on what goes on in large areas of the world.

You think the USA is powerful because you are an example of the classic self absorbed american. You belive that your government has the power to control the very fabric of the earth..and determine what will happen from each day to the next. You are basically saying that the USA government are gods. This is false, the government is not omnipotent.

With loose change, you again distort pieces of what i say. I can't even really respond to this..because first off there is not a big enough quote, and secondly..people who think it could have been a conspirocy are definatley warped in their mental perception...because like i've already said..the USA government is not omnipotent.

with the cold war and everything..nobody is "covering anything up". The media just reports stories that are the most sensational, and relevent to the most number of people. The news is a small part of actual media. In a real situation, a local station only has a few small hours of the day to devote to news..so they have to make it as relevent, and as broad as possible. That's why you don't get covereage of things. It's not like it never gest reported..9-11 conspirocy theories have been run on TV before..it's just the fact that the media is not going to waste it's time, purpousley trying to cover something up..when they have hundereds of other stories to worry about, it's just not efficent use of their time.

Media and government are largley not related. maybe only the 5 big national channels have certain government worries, but those are more lobbyists at that point. channels like mtv and national geographic won't even touch a lot of political stuff that much. Thousands do sometime work at one station, or under smaller affliates. Thousands of people work for FOX news corporation. So it's reasonable that 100 people may occupy an office. What i'm saying is that there are thousands of people who work in the media in general..you would have to pay a large majority of them off..for the media to help you cover up a self terrorist attack. Again..you twist my words to fit your agenda (a classic 9-11 liar tactic).

Trillions of dollars it would take because look at everything that needs to be bought and prepared. An operation like 9-11 would be massive, you try and explain how you are going to pull 9-11 of for a few million dollars.

lol have i ever made a video i make videos and work in media for a living. I know full and well the mentality of people like alex jones. He picks a controversial topic, with a lot of room for phony debate..and pumps it up anf fills it full of tantilizing bits of disinfo..and then poof, he makes money off it! it's not a hard concept to understand. He's a storyteller. everything he says is fiction. it's that simple.

my problem is that for me to belive your 9-11 lie, i would also have to belive that the world can be run by a hand ful of men in business suits. sorry but life is more complex then that.