Can We Avoid The Fate of the Roman Civilization & Collapse?

How can any civilization avoid collapse similar to that of the Roman Civilization?

The Roman civ. was advanced for its' time, some say ahead of their time in terms of economy, military, agriculture, engineering, law, society, education and culture. The empire that was Rome was vast and existed for 12 centuries 9some argue as long as 18 centuries). Yet this great civilization collapsed.

Whether just talking about one country, say the Untied States, we think of ourselves and our nation as advanced in many ways, and knowledgeable in many fields. The question is are we prone to a similar fate as Rome, will our nation collapse? Or on a grander scale, will western civ. as we know it collapse and only exist within the history books?

An interesting book to read on the subject is:
The Collapse of Complex Societies by Joseph Tainter

Roman territory map at the height of Roman conquest:


What does it mean to collapse, after all the land that we call the USA will still be present...Collapse can mean many things, a failure of the government and/or economies, a failure in military conquests and becoming overrun with invading enemies...

There are many examples of failed grand and advanced civilization in history:

• Minoan Crete
  
• Mycenean Greece
  
• Hittite Empire
  
• Western Chou empire
  
• Western Roman Empire
  
• Medieval Mesopotamia
  
• Lowland Classic Maya
  
• Anasazi, n america
  
• Inca, Aztec, Cahokia and many more..

Also what could the causes be? The causes or reasons do not necessarily have to be one thing, the more likely cause wold be from compound problems occurring at tor close to same time period. Here are some causes:

• Weather, climactic changes, drought and Earth changes
  
• Meteoric impact, impacts and effects
  
• War/Warfare, ramifications to economy included
  
• Famine, agricultural failure, food shortages resulting
  
• Peak oil, reduction and lack of resources
  
• Economic failures compounding other issues
  
• Government collapse dissolution
  
• Overpopulation
  
• Disease, epidemic
  
• Religion changes or dissolution

I'm sure I missed a whole lot of other collapsed civilizations throughout history...

Dont think any nation can collapse like the Roman empire unless they have the same type of completely centralized goverment, which we all know doesnt work all that well today.

Rome failed because Rome never went beyond the walls of Rome.

All those smaller civilizations you mentioned may have "collapsed" but look at the big picture here... they went on to become bigger and better things.

now, if this thread "can we avoid..." is aiming at [Borat voice]the US and A.[/borat voice] Then thats a different story.

I believe that America, as a civilization, is already collapsing. Look at Rome for instance, and every other empire, they fall due to corruption, immorality and total lack of integrity.

The only one that doesnt fit into this scheme is the British Empire, which let go of its holding of 70% of the worlds land mass progressively. Its their extreme version of immigration thats killing them as a country now.

Why do you think Muslims and Islamics HATE western culture? Its because of what the WEST (west NOT the usa in particular....western europe and north america) stands for. Decadence, waste and immorality.

Now im not a socialist. Im a "organized anarchist" (copyright!). I dont mind foriegners, i hate how they come to my town and want to change it into something that it isnt (muslims wearing headdresses to kung fu and soccer?? cmon...)

letting them wear the punjab head dress as a mountie... rediculous.

Not only is the "US and A" going down... So is Canada... Hell... we are all * snip *.

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[edit on 22-4-2007 by donk_316]


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[edit on 22-4-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

It's rather misleading to talk of the "collapse" of the Roman Empire. It didn't really happen that way. There were several contributory elements in the story, no one period in which we can say it collapsed, no clear single reason causing the political changes. History is complex, holistic, made of many parts, and doesn't usually repeat itself, because of this.

There were non-Empire groups who were being pushed out of their lands by further migrations from the east. They needed land. Political problems in the Empire had caused weaknesses. Some shortsighted planning for the subject nations. Stretching resources too thin. The migrations into the Empire from outside were followed by the eastern invaders too. There were wave after wave of different people pouring from east to west across Europe. There was also the issue of the division of the Empire into two halves, mostly to suit the issue of heriditary politics, as well as for practical considerations. And in fact, while the Western Empire withdrew into Rome itself, the Roman Empire proper did not end until well into the second millennium, at the fall of Constantinople (itself due to many reasons, the migrations of Bulgars and Avars and their increasing power, and the sack by the western crusaders, amongst other things). In some real senses the Roman Empire can be then traced into the Russian Empire too, moving there from Constantinople.

I don't think pointing at one given "reason" is much use, nor much help in us avoiding social collapse, as we cannot predict how events in the future will combine.

Cheers.

the short answer is no we cannot avoid it. Rome, like all the other great civilizations was by necessity agricultural in nature and as soon as it outstripped its agricultural base it began to decline but since it had such a wide range, it took awhile. We have avoided that problem by making the world our breadbasket but that just changes the scale of the event. We too will (and are rapidly approaching) out strip our resources, but when we fall, it won't affect a region, it will affect the whole world. Already our children's future is not as bright as ours was.

I read when I was younger that lead poisoning had a hand in the fall
of Rome.

Actually found a Link too.

I really don't know how much lead contributed to the collapse, but I found
it interesting.

Lex

I remember reading that the US Government is the longest lasting current government in existance. Basically that all other countries governments have been removed/replaced/changed since the inception of the USA. So it is inevitable that the US Government collapse eventually.

Lots of what ifs so feel free to speculate, I'm about to!

Being a semi-socialist country now, the USA will continue down this path to complete bankruptcy. With the government saftey net is severed civil unrest and mass riots ensue. US troops are used (or even UN) and the united states becomes a Dictatorship. Areas of what is now the USA fight for independence and the USA is no more.

Originally posted by donk_316
I believe that America, as a civilization, is already collapsing. Look at Rome for instance, and every other empire, they fall due to corruption, immorality and total lack of integrity.

Hmmmm. Nothing like wearing a sandwhich board ringing a bell and proclaiming the end.

While SOME parallels can be drawn between the Roman Empire and the US, it mostly the old apples compared with oranges thing.

The US and Canada posses a far more integrated society that did the Roman Empire. No the US is not perfect esp. in terms of race relations, but we also did not have any months long rioting ala France etc.

Diversity breads strength. While you decry the Mountie wearing his traditional headdress, the simple truth is that each group brings something to the whole.

We talk about a melting pot and its true. Every ethnic group keeps thier traditions and incorporates something new. My own family celebrates 4 separate New Years.

Why do you think American culture is SO pervasive? Every immigrant has added soemthing to our collective culture. Someone in another country can see elements of thier own culture as part of the whole. Its easy to adapt and/or accept that type of culture you find familiratity with.

The nature of an integrated global economy. One sociey collapses, others will follow secondary to economic chaos, so it will be in the best interest of nations to prop up and support each other. When PAX Romania ruled the world, it was thier way or the point of spear.


While its easy to look at eight years of poor leadership and scream the "the sky is falling", taking in the big picture is far less alarming.

Will the US remain the sole global super power? China may have a thing or two to say about that, but they are limited in terms of food and natural resources.

Roman empire wasn't a empire for the people. It was a empire for the sate. That's why they callaspe. If the people are not involve why should they care?

Originally posted by d60944
It's rather misleading to talk of the "collapse" of the Roman Empire. It didn't really happen that way. There were several contributory elements in the story, no one period in which we can say it collapsed, no clear single reason causing the political changes. History is complex, holistic, made of many parts, and doesn't usually repeat itself, because of this.

An excellent and accurate reply.

We aren't the same kind of government as Rome is, we don't have the same kind of economic and population pressures... and they were not the longest-lived government. I believe that honor goes to China.

I don't think pointing at one given "reason" is much use, nor much help in us avoiding social collapse, as we cannot predict how events in the future will combine.

There are any number of reasons for modern governments to collapse... but as some have said, much of the "OMG!!! THE US IS DOOMED!!" anxiety is fueled by hoaxers with predictions on various dates.

Remember the Y2K hysteria?

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by donk_316
I believe that America, as a civilization, is already collapsing. Look at Rome for instance, and every other empire, they fall due to corruption, immorality and total lack of integrity.

Hmmmm. Nothing like wearing a sandwhich board ringing a bell and proclaiming the end.

While SOME parallels can be drawn between the Roman Empire and the US, it mostly the old apples compared with oranges thing.

The US and Canada posses a far more integrated society that did the Roman Empire. No the US is not perfect esp. in terms of race relations, but we also did not have any months long rioting ala France etc.

Diversity breads strength. While you decry the Mountie wearing his traditional headdress, the simple truth is that each group brings something to the whole.

We talk about a melting pot and its true. Every ethnic group keeps thier traditions and incorporates something new. My own family celebrates 4 separate New Years.

Why do you think American culture is SO pervasive? Every immigrant has added soemthing to our collective culture. Someone in another country can see elements of thier own culture as part of the whole. Its easy to adapt and/or accept that type of culture you find familiratity with.

The nature of an integrated global economy. One sociey collapses, others will follow secondary to economic chaos, so it will be in the best interest of nations to prop up and support each other. When PAX Romania ruled the world, it was thier way or the point of spear.


While its easy to look at eight years of poor leadership and scream the "the sky is falling", taking in the big picture is far less alarming.

Will the US remain the sole global super power? China may have a thing or two to say about that, but they are limited in terms of food and natural resources.

Sorry if this is a bad format, havent posted much here, anyways.
FredT I both agree and disagree with your post. Up to 1965ish the USA was a melting pot of eastern european society. The English, German, Irish etc overcame there differences from the "old country" to melt together into a cohesive country. Each group did bring flavor and culture to the USA.

Since then countries outside eastern europe have been given higher priority in immigration. Lots of Chinese, Japanese, Indian, ect peoples have become American citizens. They too are melting into American society and adding their own culture to ours.

However other cultures have not integrated quite as well, and theres no denying that. Those month long riots in France wasn't native populations. Those rioting across Europe because of some editorial cartoons also werent native populations.

Not all immigration is equal because not all cultures seek to assimilate, but instead to dominate. Those that want seperate islamic courts instead of submiting to American courts. This is not integration, but subversion imho. Like calling for the death of someone that leaves your cult that refuses to integrate into western society. pittsburghlive.com...

To say the US Government in its present form will not collapse means that you think it will last forever. The government may not 'collapse' per se, but it most definitely will change drastically or be replaced by another format of leadership. The question is not "if" but "when".

It's truly an amazing amount of time that the roman empire existed, about 1200 years, some argue that it lasted a bit longer, around 1700-1800 years. How's the US stacking up to this mega number, well if you start it at 1776, then only 231 years. Not very long, however if you look at the amount of invention and innovation produced by the US, simply amazing in such a short amount of time.

Roman innovation for its day was also akin to the US, the romans engineering and science was the most advanced of the day (except perhaps for China).

[edit on 22-4-2007 by greatlakes]

Well the Roman Empire didnt fall. Its Western Half broke up, Balkanized, but the Eastern Roman Empire lasted for another thousand years. It was finally destroyed by the Turks with the fall of Constantinople in 1453.

Technically one could say even the Western Roman government didnt completely vanish. The Pontifex Maximus, an Official body of the Roman Government has endured now for thousands of years. It was Pagan up until around the Fourth century and then became Christian, you know it better as the Vatican. This Roman Office is the single oldest government office in the world. It is even older than the Roman Empire and dates back to the Roman Republic. It would have be to close to Three thousand years old now. Thats amazing.

My opinion is that before the US can collapse or fall, well go through a period of Totalitarianism probably beginning some time this century. Right now were more like the Roman Republic after the Punic wars. We'll probably go through another civil war in the next hundred years like them and itll result in the most powerful Dictatorship in the history of the human race. How that turns out is anyones guess. All I know is everyone who compares Bush and America to Hitler and the Nazis have no idea what kind of Horror will be unleashed when a real American Empire is born. Bush and America act nothing like Hitler and the Nazis, but I dread the day that the Beast awakens and our base human savgery overrides our American ideals. Then we'll become like the Nazis and Ill fear for the world.

FredT

Diversity breads strength

No, actually it breeds division.. it breeds generic unification and eventually explodes. No nation has ever survived "diversification" - and not meaning race necessarily, but cultural. Blacks and whites and Asians can make a nation run perfectly with no problems.. but when the population speaks 2+ languages.. when the CULTURAL differences are extreme and the efforts to support different cultures outgrows the will to protect and nurture your OWN culture.. you will fall, shortly and without grace.

Every empire, kingdom and state falls.. never has one lasted the test of time.. eventually America will fall.. I believe we are in what historians will call the "decline".. on our road to the fall of the empire, and like all great and powerful empires as we fall it won't be pretty.

nonsense.

Rome had a huge range of languages spoken and it lasted 1,000 years the key languages were latin and greek but also other regional languages as well.... the United States though out the 19th and into the 20th centuries had a range of languages spoken...Spanish in the southwest, Norwegian and Swedish in the great lakes region, French and/or patios in and around new Orleans and up against the Canadian border, Italian in Philly, New York and Boston, German in parts of Pennsylvania etc. and every one of those groups became intergrated into the society as a whole.

I don't agree with the diversity posts above. I can look at the individual states being a loose sort of analogy to diversity of language, currency or culture. 50 stats all having common laws and at the same time all individual states having their own individual laws. Now in the case of the civil war this harmony was not so harmonious, however in the years after, it seems to 'work' for this country to accept and in cases to evolve with these states for the greater nation.

Look at these like the separate city-states?

edit: I cant type!

[edit on 24-4-2007 by greatlakes]

Great points greatlakes, except the Civil War was fought to end state identity and create an environment that would support a federalized government. Before the Civil War we where a union of nations bound to protect eachother, the Federal government abidded by the rules and regulations that bound it, supported by the states. From the civil war until WWII was the most destructive time for American State Rights. We are not the same nation we where before the war, and our founding fathers would be sad indeed.

But your wrong in saying state differences where good. It lead to the most violent, most catastrophic war in human history.. until WWI and II.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Great points greatlakes, except the Civil War was fought to end state identity and create an environment that would support a federalized government. Before the Civil War we where a union of nations bound to protect eachother, the Federal government abidded by the rules and regulations that bound it, supported by the states. From the civil war until WWII was the most destructive time for American State Rights. We are not the same nation we where before the war, and our founding fathers would be sad indeed.

Agreed these times were chaotic, but the point being that the states were not dissolved into one main country without separate states, especially seeing the division that brought on the civil war. The states still exist and a balance was achieved with time and evolution of thought and perception. This I advance as being analogous to diversity.

Balance was achieved..

After General Sherman ran his army to the Atlantic coast literally destroying, pillaging and mutilating everything in his path, wiping out Southern identity, raping Southern pride and putting the South into the ultimate submission.

States have never been the same..

States do not make their own laws at free will any more.. for instance, Ohio's drinking age was 19 until Reagan took all federal funding away from us to FORCE us to change to 21. Just one small example of what goes on, in every state, daily.

The reason states exist after the civil war is not because we still believe in states rights, a taboo subject in school .. did you ever read your State constitution? States existed because it makes it easy to manage..

Just like any other large empire, America split into territories, called States or Common Wealths to help better run the various communities..

Any nation, big or small, is split into provinces, states, territories, counties, ect because direct rule is impossible to manage from one central location.

It was complete carnage, and some think we are better off without individual state identity and rights.. I personal despise the federal government and its pathetic bureaucracy.. A generic method of control that cannot pay attention to the individual rights and free will of various people from different states..

But, thats just me. Many people love big government, an intrusive government, a government with its hands in your pockets, in the schools, in the work place, in your homes.. some people like having a federal government tell you how to act, what to say, what to not say and how to live.