What would you have donne

Originally posted by razor1000
i think that if i knew this guy was a time bomb i would have at least kicked him out from school. he was leaving a long trail to indicate there was something wrong with him.

Well obviously I would agree with you there, to a point, but that really wasn't the question was it?

So is every kid that acts a little strange, or different, going to be kicked out of school now? Think about what a dangerous precedent could be in the making here? We'll have a witch hunt for kids who might have a little dark side to them. There were lots of kids like that in my school, including myself somewhat, but none of us shot anybody.

We need to be trying to find out why kids are doing this. Obviously something in our society is triggering this. Kids don't just get up in the morning and decide to kill people, yet this phenomena is getting to be a regular occurrence.
We need to find the root of the problem, but as usual we will just fix the result and not even look for the real cause.

The elite (or whatever you want to call it) have created a society that is self enslaving, become a clone or face ridicule and be ostracised. School is where we are shaped into sheep to be nothing but slaves to the system. The cloned masses then can't deal with anyone who is different, because psychologically they know that they are really not being themselves but what society/the system wants them to be.

I think we are seeing the extreme results of a system that dehumanises and takes away our true individuality.

Several years ago I accepted a job as a waitress at a steak house. On the night I was supposed to start work I got a wild hair and just decided, "I don't want to be a waitress". I didn't go in and I didn't call to tell them of my decision. (btw, i've never done that-before or since). I found out later that everyone at work that night was killed (Roger Dale Stafford, if I remember correctly).

What bothered me the most (besides all those people dead and my near miss experience) was the fact that they were walked one by one into the freezer and shot. It bothered me because when you've got some mad man with a gun holding you and your co-workers hostage and the mad man picks a co-worker, takes them to the freezer and you hear a gunshot and comes out covered in blood but your coworker doesn't come out....you know that you have nothing to lose. It bothered me that not one of them fought for their lives (per forensic evidence), they just obediently walked to their deaths.

I honestly don't know what I would have done in that situation but I'd like to think that I'm not such a sheep that I would just get up and walk into a freezer and stand there waiting to be shot dead. I've been in several life-threatening situations (and yes, I've looked down the barrel of more than one gun) but my "fight or flight" reflex must have gotten stuck in first gear because I have never just "done nothing" in those situations.

I probably have a team of specialist guardian angels watching over me because I know how lucky I am to be alive. Still, we make our own choices in how we respond to situations and those choices come from our value system and character. It saddens me to think that all those people died when so many more were around that could have jumped him. He did have to reload, after all.

BTW, wasn't there something on ATS a few weeks ago about American schools being targeted next as a terrorist act?

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by razor1000
i think that if i knew this guy was a time bomb i would have at least kicked him out from school. he was leaving a long trail to indicate there was something wrong with him.

Well obviously I would agree with you there, to a point, but that really wasn't the question was it?

So is every kid that acts a little strange, or different, going to be kicked out of school now? Think about what a dangerous precedent could be in the making here? We'll have a witch hunt for kids who might have a little dark side to them. There were lots of kids like that in my school, including myself somewhat, but none of us shot anybody.

We need to be trying to find out why kids are doing this. Obviously something in our society is triggering this. Kids don't just get up in the morning and decide to kill people, yet this phenomena is getting to be a regular occurrence.
We need to find the root of the problem, but as usual we will just fix the result and not even look for the real cause.

The elite (or whatever you want to call it) have created a society that is self enslaving, become a clone or face ridicule and be ostracised. School is where we are shaped into sheep to be nothing but slaves to the system. The cloned masses then can't deal with anyone who is different, because psychologically they know that they are really not being themselves but what society/the system wants them to be.

I think we are seeing the extreme results of a system that dehumanises and takes away our true individuality.

well i dont want to get into elitism with you, but as far as stigmatizing anyone well the police already do that anyway when they pull over people of a certain type of race "treading carefully here". the reason is because statistically they are most likely to go berserk.

^
What has any of that got to do with anything I said?

Also I'd love to see the statistics that says people of a 'certain type of race' (sic) are 'more likely to go berserk'.

Why do you need to 'tread carefully'? You don't want your obvious bigotry to be noticed? Too late mate...

'people of a certain type of race "treading carefully here". the reason is because statistically they are most likely to go berserk.'

What statistician would even use those terms? Or was it something you read on the national fronts website?

If you care to take a closer look at the way things really stand
You'd see we're all just 'n-word's to the rulers of this land...Jeremy Ratter

So is every kid that acts a little strange, or different, going to be kicked out of school now? Think about what a dangerous precedent could be in the making here? We'll have a witch hunt for kids who might have a little dark side to them. There were lots of kids like that in my school, including myself somewhat, but none of us shot anybody.

When are people going to get this. Just like Terrorists, if you stigmatise, alienate, and seperate certain people, you are just going to create more of the situations that you are trying to prevent.

It's frustrating that they do not get this, and with every consequtive school shooting they still don't get it.

The stupid and hypocritical thing about this is that this kids plays are now being posted online to show how sick and disturbed he was, had he gotten out, survived somehow, not shot up the school, become a writter, those same plays could have and I guarentee you would have been used to show how brilliant he was going to be, even back then. Yeah we knew he was going to be the next Stephen King.

People are so hypocritical. If he had gotten out of this somehow and made it and survived, been a writer instead of a school shooter, people would be like, yeah I went to school with him, he had that quite brilliant side, or something like that.

Also I see all this South Korean guilt about what he did. He didn't grow up there for the last 12 years of his life, so why feel guilty? He was a product of American society. However maybe if American society took more ownership, like South Korea is trying to do, for something they did not even have anything to do with, maybe there would be less of these situations, instead what I am seeing is media, specialist, experts, that are so far removed from the reality of these kids, and this kid specifically, telling society how out of touch with reality he was, how disconnected he was. I guarantee you, he is probably more in touch with some segments of society than they will ever be. I am watching them give their expert opinions and I am thinking, they just don't get it, and these horrible tragedies are going to contiune, as long as society takes their que from experts like those.

It's truly mind boggling. If society continues this way, then we will be sitting here, 10 years from now, wondering what is the mysterous source of these tragic school shootings? Why do they happen so much more frequently in American society vs other societies? What can we do to fix this? Why didn't putting people on lists, and kicking them out of school, fix this? Why are we so bloody stupid, and unable to see that the problem in large part is society itself, and some things in society need some real fixing, if we are going to prevent tragidies like this from happening again?

However the right questions are not being asked as usual, and the experts that are giving feedback on this as to why it happened are so far removed from any sort of reality, that they can have no truly valid opinion as to what motivates these kids, and pushes them to this stage.

One thing I can say is, if this kid lived in South Korea, I doubt we would have seen the headlines of 32 killed. So again someone somewhere has to take and introspective look at American society and why it's creating these kinds of reactions from these kids. Else we will keep coming back here over and over again.

Originally posted by Harassment101
The stupid and hypocritical thing about this is that this kids plays are now being posted online to show how sick and disturbed he was,

I wonder what some of these kids did before hand. Yes they're grieving but it seems a bit blood thirsty. Ironic and creepily reminiscent of when Martin Bryant went on a killing spree in tazzie.. this woman said on TV "I always said there was something wrong with him." The way she said it.. I wondered if she ever said it to his face. Made me cringe as she seemed to be gloating as though her pointing out that he had a screw loose somehow made her more insightful. If only someone had've listened to her..: he was apparently ostrasized by the whole town. Now.. I do not in any way think some being bullied justifies them going on murdering ramages but if a mentally vulnerable/unstable person is under constant persecution.. what happens when you back someone into a corner?
[edit. sorry bad taste.. just saw a news update and he actually says it ]
Many of these kids are bullying victims but that issue is ignored after they snap.

In Aus is was a bit different. Gun restrictions were tightened and news outlets were banned from releasing anything that would glorify him [though they have no probs glorying american murderers]. The press are salivating. Why did the put his video on air? Hoping for copycats.. they gave him exactly what he wanted. :shk:

[edit on 19-4-2007 by riley]

if they locked down my class room i would have gotten up and moved to the door side of the room toward the back and waited with my hand in my pocket, which contains a m33 .357 Sig glock, there is no ban on concealed carry here in Oregon and had there been i still would have had it. expulsion vs death you figure it , which would you take? by the way don't say that i could not do what's right under the pressure of such a situation, I'm a veteran of the u.s. army and have been, a military police patrol supervisor, special, weapons security agent, and am combat veteran, there are more than a few people on any campus who regardless of the short sightedness of some administrator, should be armed for the protection of all. it's not the armed nut case ( which gun laws don't prevent ) it's the unarmed victims ( which gun laws disarmed ) that are the problem.

[edit on 19-4-2007 by wcssar]

Hi riley.

what happens when you back someone into a corner?
[edit. sorry bad taste.. just saw a news update and he actually says it ]
Many of these kids are bullying victims but that issue is ignored after they snap.

Wrong, most of these kids that go on shooting sprees are bullied. Same with the workplace shooting. Not just many, most. Probably in the high 90's. This factor is repeatedly ignored and I will tell you why. Because it would require society and these kids who did the bullying to take some ownership for what their actions caused.

When these tragedies happen, most of society is so busy grieving and crying for the victims, they never take the time to ask, did any of the actions of these children cause the end result or the outcome that happened? Apparently it's not the tasteful thing to do, because we don't want to be seen as blaming the victims, so society goes on and on, about how sick and disturbed these people were. We use ever scrap of evidence in our arsenal to paint a picture of a sick disturbed individual, cause we know that normal people just don't do these sorts of things right?

Now.. I do not in any way think some being bullied justifies them going on murdering rampages but if a mentally vulnerable/unstable person is under constant persecution.. what happens when you back someone into a corner?

Forget vulnerable and unstable, if you put a normal healthy well adjusted person in these conditions for years at a time, it will bring about results like this, until we acknowledge this, and have the guts to face this, we are not getting any closer to stopping this stuff from happening, and I am frankly tired of these school shootings, which I think can be prevented to some degree, but not by the methods being employed now, and not by even more police state tactics.

I was just surprised at the plays that apparently got him sent to the guidance councilor. In one situation it might have caused people to think that he was a little quirky and yet had a sense of humour, in this situation they may well have begun a spiral that lead to the events of this week. youtube.com...

Young adult writes plays for creative writing class, class mates say play is disturbing, they think he could be the next school shooter, they tell the professor, who agrees and sends kid for psychological evaluation. Kids continue to blow play out of preparation, before you know it, every one on campus knows what a whack job he is. Then he like some girls follow them around, but because everyone knows he's a whack job, they get scared, who would not, and they report it. No charges are pressed, however because they see him as harmless?

Well two years of loneliness isolation, by the people who are saying they reached out to him, could have an effect on someone. I am wondering how much reaching out you are doing to someone who you are calling the next school shooter behind their back or to their face? The statements of how people tried to reach out to him are so hypocritical. We always said he was going to be the next school shooter, then in the next sentence, we tried to befriend him. Yeah, and then they wonder why he spurned their advances for friendship.

I am not defending the shooting, but I think people are just not seeing their ability to stop these things from happening. It does not take rocket science, if you ostracise someone, and call them the next school shooter, and act accordingly, you have a very good chance of creating the next school shooter.

Even in the video he is like you did this. He calls them snobby. If they were so friendly and always reaching out to him, why does he think they were snobs? Two sides to every story. I am so tired of hearing the same side from the school shooters who do leave videos behind.

The feelings of betrayal, being spit upon and mistreated, and the rest of society then trying to pass them off as whack jobs. At what stage did he start acting funny? Was it after his oh so frightening plays were reported to the school, and had him labeled as a whack job? If we don't did deeper and look for the real answers, we will be back here again and again looking for the answers and I personally would rather not have to do this.

I wish that society would take more personal responsibility for some portions of these events, especially when we do know that bullying does seem to play a hugh role in so many of these school shootings. However anyone who is deemed different or outside of what some consider the norm, are still humiliated, and when they act out, they are then the ones sent for evaluations, and deemed dangerous. Has anyone wondered about a society that acts in such a fashion, and what's wrong with a society like that? I guess nothing, because then that would mean a hugh self examination, and taking ownership and responsibility for some of the things that are happening.

If you take the time to read what these kids are leaving behind, they all sound very similar. Except we are told that they are disturbed nut jobs and are then trained to ignore anything they say, which might help us prevent the next school shooting. Hello, what we are doing is not working. We obviously should be looking at other approaching, and taking into consideration what some of these former human beings were saying about what caused them to reach the breaking point, so that we can prevent others from doing the same.

I just think that more can be done to stop these sorts of things. I think that teacher who took him aside and collaborated a play with him, and got him to express some of what was going on, was on the right track. Had that teacher not retired and still be around, maybe that one thing would have been the difference in helping to stop what happened this week. I can't say for sure, and I don't want to speculate, but I do think that more can be done. I don't think this there is nothing we could have done is flying that well.

They all saw him as a psycho for the longest time and now that is all we will hear. What about high school, was he also weird there, or was he maybe just another normal student? Maybe there was something wrong with him, but when so much of what he is saying is mirroring other kids who have taken the same actions, then maybe we should wake up to that, and take other actions, that might actually work.

[edit on 19-4-2007 by Harassment101]

If you're one of the first to be killed..
..
may god bless you..

If you've just watched say 3-5 people get shot..then the real question arises..

Its at that moment when you decide(or your 'soul' decides) whether your: individualistic survival instinct(and believe me here its screaming and running for your life) kicks in

OR

your species' propagation instinct kicks(you feel your life is riskable for the 'greater' good)..

NEITHER decision is right or wrong..

In a split second you've got to decide whether the guy is going to let you be if you submit; or that he's going to kill you anyway..
And strangely enough; if history teaches you that more often than not the psychos aren't the 'benevolent' kind, then you'll be able make that decision faster.

Once you've made that decision; you have to decide the best possible way of stunning the guy so that he's first got to waste valuable seconds silencing you.
What do you do?
I think the best option in a class room would be to throw your chair and/or desk at him.
If you get off a decent shot this does two things:

1)It distracts him and makes him realise that you're a bigger problem than the rest. So he has to process a way of getting at you.
At the same time you're not still; you've moved on..getting to more things to throw at him..He wastes more valuable seconds trying to get you down..

2) All these valuable seconds allow your colleagues to 'snap' out and hopefully some of them will build on your cause; now he's got to worry about
many projectiles..

from here on its tough.. you've got to decide whether you're going to rush him while he's not looking and hopefully disarm him.
Very very tough call.. cause if you take him down.. you've probably saved all of the others and most probably condemned yourself to a close-quarters shot or two..

This is the most difficult scenario I can think of..

If the shooter is in the hallway and he's not got to you yet, then your best bet is to jump out ... everybody..
if its too crowded or fatally high, then you've got to take that brave decision of waiting armed(with a chair or something) behind the door..

What would I do?
Oh, I hope I would turn hero if and when I got the chance..
Bu I can only hope sitting in front of my PC..

Another thing:

What are we doing here discussing this?
We are witnessing the instinctive nature of our species for self-preservation..
We are learning from situations and devising future confrontational techniques.
And everytime it happens(And god I hope it doesn't happen again), we will discuss it mor and more.. until ALL of us have a well-oiled contingency plan chalked out in the back of our minds.

And if it still continues, a day will come when the statistics govern that we are indeed present at such a situation; present with the contingencies ready..
And maybe we'll die or run away and survive w/o confronting..
And if it still happens again and again in the future,a day will come when the shooter will be faced with a statistical inevitability:

The human instinct and adaptive learning capacity will push most of his victims-to-be into retaliating before he can do much damage.. and lo!

You will have your first subdued school/campus shooter..

This is to all those psychotic shooters-to-be:
Your days are numbered.. you WILL be confronted and eventually subdued if you and your kind keep testing the human instinct to survive!!

One more thing..
The shooter is the product of the society that has bred him..

"The Clockwork Orange"

Lets not point too many fingers at the guy.
He's trying to make a point and lets take heed.

Honestly, my first reaction would be to run.

Why, I wouldn't think that the shooter is a mass murderer. I would think that he/she was after a certain person or group of people and I just wouldn't want to be picked off by accident.

If I was around long enough (couldn't get away) to figure out that this person was just shooting everyone, then I'd like to think that I would do something. At least, you could throw a chair at him.

But who really can answer how they would handle themselves.

Originally posted by ANOK
^
What has any of that got to do with anything I said?

Also I'd love to see the statistics that says people of a 'certain type of race' (sic) are 'more likely to go berserk'.

Why do you need to 'tread carefully'? You don't want your obvious bigotry to be noticed? Too late mate...

'people of a certain type of race "treading carefully here". the reason is because statistically they are most likely to go berserk.'

What statistician would even use those terms? Or was it something you read on the national fronts website?

If you care to take a closer look at the way things really stand
You'd see we're all just 'n-word's to the rulers of this land...Jeremy Ratter

look man youy're not geting what i was trying to say what i was trying to say in other words is that those kids that get picked on in school are usually the ones that get like this. now i was just using an example from what i've seen cops being interviewed in different tv news channels about why do they pull over black guys on nice cars ok
i'll get you some stats when ASAP

[edit on 4/19/2007 by razor1000]

at least if you want to run away do some zig zaggin i say. yeah were here speculating but that is what this thread is about. there are some people that will run away and there are some people that will take action. take what happened in 911 for example who know what would have appened if those guys on that flight that crashed had not tried to rush those terrorists.
Sometyimes it just takes one person to turn everything around, if at least one person would have tried to act most likely other people would have responded to that and also tried to help.

Originally posted by razor1000
take what happened in 911 for example who know what would have appened if those guys on that flight that crashed had not tried to rush those terrorists.

Yeah, if you believe that really appened (sic)...

So what stats? That people of certain races (read African-American) are more likely to go beserk?

Cops pull over black people cause they're biased racist, whatever you want to call it. Blacks get pulled over more, and jailed more, cause the system is biased and racist. There is no proof that any race is more likely to go berserk and if they do it's a product of their environment, not their race.

County police in recent years have pulled over African American and Hispanic drivers at a much higher rate than whites....
...“I can’t theorize on why more blacks and Hispanics are being stopped, I can just say that there are many variables that affect the statistical outcomes,” said Lt. David Waltemeyer, a county police spokesman.

Source

Hmmmmmmm. So the cops don't have the stats you do to justify them pulling over more of one race than another? We live in an extremely racist system.

More whites do drugs than blacks (check your stats) yet...

Drugs are a major factor in most afrikan amerikkkans going to jail. The media seriously wants you to think that all blacks do is live off the system, get drunk, do drugs, and kill their own people. The media wants to fool the nation by making the majority, which is white, think that we are some vicious animals.

Racism, Drugs, Aids, and Prison and The Toll They Take On The Afrikan Amerikkkan Race



Sry for being so off topic with this, but ignorance about race can't be left unchallenged in any thread imo.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by razor1000
take what happened in 911 for example who know what would have appened if those guys on that flight that crashed had not tried to rush those terrorists.

Yeah, if you believe that really appened (sic)...

So what stats? That people of certain races (read African-American) are more likely to go beserk?

Cops pull over black people cause they're biased racist, whatever you want to call it. Blacks get pulled over more, and jailed more, cause the system is biased and racist. There is no proof that any race is more likely to go berserk and if they do it's a product of their environment, not their race.

County police in recent years have pulled over African American and Hispanic drivers at a much higher rate than whites....
...“I can’t theorize on why more blacks and Hispanics are being stopped, I can just say that there are many variables that affect the statistical outcomes,” said Lt. David Waltemeyer, a county police spokesman.

Source

Hmmmmmmm. So the cops don't have the stats you do to justify them pulling over more of one race than another? We live in an extremely racist system.

More whites do drugs than blacks (check your stats) yet...

Drugs are a major factor in most afrikan amerikkkans going to jail. The media seriously wants you to think that all blacks do is live off the system, get drunk, do drugs, and kill their own people. The media wants to fool the nation by making the majority, which is white, think that we are some vicious animals.

Racism, Drugs, Aids, and Prison and The Toll They Take On The Afrikan Amerikkkan Race



Sry for being so off topic with this, but ignorance about race can't be left unchallenged in any thread imo.

i9 never said that asians are more likely to go berserk and if it read like that to you its probably my fault for coma splicing