Head-2-Head: Palestinian Independence

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Participants

Pro - Absente
Con - Rockpuck

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Thanks.

[edit on 11-4-2007 by chissler]

Prelude

Hi,

My name is Georgi Grancharov and I am a new member on ATS, but accessed it from the beginning as a guest.
First of all, I want to thank chissler and ATS for sponsoring this debate and would like to extend my thanks also to Rockpuck, who agreed to be my opponent in this debate.

To be in this debate isn't easy - I am feeling like David going to fight Goliath. Some people will consider me maybe anti-American or even anti-Semitic just because I am "defending the Palestinians" - it happens often here, and in the whole world. But I am not devils advocate in this thread - i will not defend the so called "Palestinian Terrorist Attacks", or their method on using 14 year old children as "shields" - No. I am here for the fact's, for the political background of that situation, searching for justice as a human being.

The question no one is asking is WHY they blow up them self, why are they killing innocent people and so on. And i will give you an answer, even answers and facts so every person can understand their situation if you look on the facts - And that will be my key point in that discussion.

I will expose facts that cannot be denied, it goes from war crimes, media pr-campaigns used for brainwashing the American people up to exposing Israel as an occupier for more than 40 years, an illegal occupation against the Geneva convention, the illegal demolition of Palestinian houses in Palestinian territory, undocumented war crimes in the western media (but documented by Amnesty International and the Red Cross) and so on. The real aggressor in this situation is Israel.

The Beginning

Let's not concentrate for a moment on history. Everyone can open any historical site on Google and see how the British "gave" their controlled land to Israel decades ago, what later resulted in many wars and even more territory for Israel. That's a fact.

Let's start with the Human Right groups like Amnesty International or the Red Cross - and let's see what Hamas or the Palestinians didn't do in the first place. They didn't liquidate the corporal, which Israel routinely does - Israel namely it's political assassination, witch is a war crime under international law.

Did you know, that Israel was the only country in the world, witch legalizes hostage-taking (1997)? It was the liberal head of the Israeli Hight Court Aharon Barack who said that it's legitimate and legal to (what he called) "bargaining chips in order to get prisoners" (Israeli's hold by Lebanon's). Of course, under international pressure this decision was reversed in 2000, but they continue to hold Lebanese hostages until 2004. So the Hamas was (and is) accused to do things, Israel did too - war crimes on both sides

It goes further, when we read a report named "Take no Hostages", released and written by the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. The report shows that Israel routinely kills civilians in the so called "Arrest Operations", man, women and even children shot to death without any firearms - just for throwing stones at tanks.

And let's not forget about 9000 Palestinians who are hostages held by Israel - around 1000 of them are administrative detainees.

And why is everyone saying "Israel defends it self", "Israel is defending" and so on? As an occupier, there is no so called "defending"! They are not on their territory, so what are they defending? Every new report brainwashes people to believe, that Israel is actually defending them self. So if i go to your house in the middle of the night, you raise a weapon and i kill you - is that defending?

I think think is enough for the start, leaving "my aces" for the next post.

Excellent points my friend

First off, thank you Chissler for taking time out of your own day to set this debate up. Thank you to the staff for designing this method in which we go head 2 head and fight to the death! (OK maybe a little to over dramatic)
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I have always been interested in the Israeli Palestinian issue, I have always been hard on the Palestinians for their tactics, crimes against their own people and all around lack of progress they seem to make. When I see the Palestinians I view them side by side to the Kurdish populations within Iraq, Iran, and Turkey..

Palestine has a chance for independence, all they have to do is lay down their weaponry and accept that Israel has beaten them, and they will have a nation of their own. The reason I view them next to the Kurds is because through it all no one ever gave them that chance, and yet they rose up and built a peaceful country anyways, a country within a country.

Palestine Was NOT an actual nation at any point. It was a providence under the Ottoman empire. Now, that does not mean they do not have ties to the land, their people have been there and have roots to the land for thousands of years, as do Jewish, maybe not through blood but by faith. That is what makes the whole situation so hard to solve, who should get the land?

Well, they have the land! They do, honestly. Israel does not discriminate against other faiths, they are a secular society that is continually liberalizing. IF the Palestinians dropped their weapons, formed an actual working government, accept defeat.. they would have no problems getting to holy sites, even immigrating to Israel as a citizen. Israel ALREADY allows them access, but Palestinians do not like check points and security walls.

Had Palestinian militias not blown up buses, raided houses and murder entire families there WOULD BE NO WALL. But they did.. and I don't think it represents the entire population of Palestine well to say these militias ARE Palestine..

The problems lie within the government.. which has two branches .. the milder side, who last July accepted Palestine as a state beside Israel (Which was HUGE news! Never got a headline because a day later a militant group attacked the out post sparking the war in August) this side of the government wants peace.. they do not want to take it laying down though, they still want their dignity, and I do not see any reason that should be looked down upon.. This is Fatah .. the new Fatah anyways.

Hammas however is the next leading government sect, they wish to see Israel entirely destroyed, all its people killed or moved out of the region and have the entire Israeli country occupied by Palestine.. They will never accept a state beside Israel, they will never accept Jews in their holy land and they will use what ever means necessary..

There are many other smaller groups, some for peace, some for war. The Palestinian government cannot become entirely free so long as it remains divided.

The reason it cannot be free until united, the main government Fatah has NO CONTROL over the other militias..

So while the government preaches peace and unity and lets work WITH Israel and not AGAINST Israel, the militias are lobbing rockets into towns, kidnapping soldiers, raiding outpost ....

Lets assume Palestine was granted full independence. Israel would still have troops on its borders.. but not in Palestine. Do you honestly think that the militias would STOP attacking? Hell no they wouldn't, and Israel would invade again and the whole cycle starts again.

Just look at Lebanon, the central government was weak, they could not compete with little militias let alone a huge militia like Hezbollah.. the result was the government was at peace with Israel and the small armies where not.. they attacked Israel and Israel decimated the country.. punishment for not controlling their own population..

Some would say Israel's tactics are to strong.. in fact that is the only reason any one has a problem with Israel.. if Israel was just another little poor country with a weak army, no one would give this much attention.. but Israel is a very powerful army, one of the strongest in the world.. and when it goes to war it often over kills, over destroys, and uses strong psychological warfare..

But what do you expect? Since its creation Israel has been repeatedly attacked by multiple people from multiple sides.. always prevailing. They are aware that if an enemy builds up, if they practice APEASMENT which Europe and the rest of the world love these days, the enemy will just get bigger and bigger and will soon attack whether or not Israel does.

They know Palestine is not a "threat".. Palestine will never remove Israel, Israel is here to stay. But they do know that rocket attacks, bus explosions and house raids kill innocent Israeli's, and NO government should allow that.. the best defense is a strong offense..

The problem with Palestinians is the militant groups do not care about civilians, they fight within crowds, fight from houses and mosques that are not theirs, they purposefully lour the Israelis to destroy the wrong thing, the wrong person, the wrong people so they can take pictures and use it in media warfare..

The people are innocent bystanders, most just want to go to school, go to work, stay on the farm, keep to them selves.. but they cannot be left alone when a militia bosses the government around for what it wants, not when a militia sparks wars and incursions by Israeli's .. not when the militia brings war to them.

It is in my opinion that Palestine is not yet mature enough to the point that they can have absolute independence.. they cannot manage the country they have now let alone a completely free one.. it would disintegrate into civil war, into war with Israel and the entire process would start again.

When Palestine learns to manage them selves, act accordingly, then they will be free.. they need to leave behind the war mentality, leave behind the dependence on militias, leave behind the desire for all of Israel to be theirs. Until then they are under Israeli rule... not because Israel wants the land, its useless land, but because they have to keep them in check.

Rockpuck, thanks for your post, witch was more from an emotional view of point, than arguments. You didn't answer to any question i asked you in my introduction, and you didn't prove any statement with facts - some of them even are just not the truth, and thats where I am starting to quote you.

Palestine has a chance for independence, all they have to do is lay down their weaponry and accept that Israel has beaten them, and they will have a nation of their own.

Palestine was a nation before it was conquered by Umar in 640 - so don't tell me they never were a nation. After that, Palestine was more or less independent before it was given to the UK in 1922 (The British Mandate). That's the time when a mass immigration of Jewish people began in the first place! In the early 20th century, the Jewish population was just about 5% in this area - This is something most people just want to forget.

Well, they have the land! They do, honestly. Israel does not discriminate against other faiths, they are a secular society that is continually liberalizing. IF the Palestinians dropped their weapons, formed an actual working government, accept defeat.. they would have no problems getting to holy sites, even immigrating to Israel as a citizen. Israel ALREADY allows them access, but Palestinians do not like check points and security walls.

Israel is such a friendly nation, you forgot almost everything before the Palestinian conflict, just to remember some time lines:

- May 9, 1942 The Biltmore Program - Jewish leaders, headed by Chaim Weizmann and David Ben-Gurion, convene at the Biltmore Hotel in New York and declare their postwar program (known as the Biltmore Program). The program recommended an end to the British Mandate and demand Jewish control over immigration to Palestine with the aim of founding a Jewish "Commonwealth."

- May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State / British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began. After the war, Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan.

Now, the story gets interesting...

- June 5-10,1967 Six day war . Israel destroys the Egyptian air force on the ground, conquers and occupies Sinai and Gaza, then conquers the West Bank from Jordan, and Golan Heights from Syria. UN resolution 242 called for Israeli withdrawal and guess who does VETO? The US (Over 23 times in future resolutions)

- June 7, 1981 Israel destroys Iraqi nuclear reactor in daring raid.
- June 6, 1982 Massive Israeli invasion of Lebanon to fight PLO.
- March-April 2002 Israel conducts operation Defensive Wall in the West Bank, following a large number of Palestinian suicide attacks on civilian targets. Saudi peace initiative adopted at Beirut summit.

Keep an eye on the bold "following" - Because until that time there wasn't a great number of suicidal attacks from the PLO or Hammas. It was indeed the Israelis who started to seize Palestinian lands back in the 60's, killing and torturing countless civilians.

Because i have just 500 characters left, and already proved some of your statements wrong, i will ask you a question, and i want it answered this time:

Imagine the Russian minority in the US is uprising. The UN is against it but Russia places a VETO and they decide to make Ohio a Russian province. They force you and your children out of your house, teargassing American children when they try to throw stones at their tanks, killing civilians and so on. What would you do?

America Used UN Veto to Protect Israeli War Crimes – 24 Times!

More to come...

Absente-

It is to my knowledge that it was my opening post, thus not a rebuttal and not a "reply" to any "question" that you ask. It is the opening form of my views, I am .. oh, so sorry that it was not up to your standards..

Palestine was a nation before it was conquered by Umar in 640 - so don't tell me they never were a nation. After that, Palestine was more or less independent before it was given to the UK in 1922 (The British Mandate). That's the time when a mass immigration of Jewish people began in the first place! In the early 20th century, the Jewish population was just about 5% in this area - This is something most people just want to forget.

WEll Ill be! Palestine was a nation 1,267 years ago!

So was... Prussia Guess we should still consider them a state.. 1525-1947

Byzantine Empire I suppose Turkey, Greece and many other states should just start considering themselves to be Byzantine. 330-1453

Rome510BC - 476AD Italians?

And since we are giving land back to ancestors, Mexico can hand over a big chunk to Mayan's 1800BC - 1250AD

Of course they can fight with the Aztec over who gets what land. 1248 - 1521

And of course if you believe ancestry holds the ties to the land..

Kingdom of Judah 930BC - 586BC

Judea 830'sBC - 132-135AD

In fact, how interesting you may find this point Absente, The revolt at Bar Kokhba's actually lead about to the existence of this fabled nation you call Palestine.. The last Jewish-Roman war under the command of Roman Emperor Hadrian the Romans suffered an embarrassing defeat. This was all in response to a revolt that was crushed in about 70 ad that resulted in the entire city of Jerusalem to be plundered by the Roman army as it put down the Jewish revolt. The Romans where to go as far as to re-name the city Aelia Capitolina which later became the name used by Arabic people who captured the city at a later date.

Because of these embarrassing uprising against the mighty Roman Empire, our friend Hadrian decided to completely delete the identity of the Jews from the Roman books, maps and education. All of Israel, Judah and Judea where grouped together to form a province called PALESTINE.

So.. Britain formed Israel in 1942. Rome formed Palestine in 135AD. Now, according to your philosophy we are to respect ancient ties. Well my friend, Israel holds it. Islamic armies did not capture Palestine from the Jews until around 950AD.

- May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State / British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began. After the war, Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan.

Now, the story gets interesting...

- June 5-10,1967 Six day war . Israel destroys the Egyptian air force on the ground, conquers and occupies Sinai and Gaza, then conquers the West Bank from Jordan, and Golan Heights from Syria. UN resolution 242 called for Israeli withdrawal and guess who does VETO? The US (Over 23 times in future resolutions)

- June 7, 1981 Israel destroys Iraqi nuclear reactor in daring raid.
- June 6, 1982 Massive Israeli invasion of Lebanon to fight PLO.
- March-April 2002 Israel conducts operation Defensive Wall in the West Bank, following a large number of Palestinian suicide attacks on civilian targets. Saudi peace initiative adopted at Beirut summit.

Ah yes Israel is a not a friendly nation to states who wish to cause her bodily harm. You consider the 6day war to be ISRAEL's fault?? Please, do tell me you have picked up at least 1 history book in your life.

The 6 Day War was at the fault of the Arab peoples, they decided that they would combine their efforts and crush the state of Israel, clearing the holy land of Jews. You also forgot, this was the 3rd war by now that Israel had fought with its neighbors..

It was fought primarily over the fact that Arab states cut off nearly all water supply to Israel, the dam at Mukhaiba in Jordan would end water flows into Israel, thus sparking skirmishes nearly a year before the 6-day-war even began.

The agitation was of both sides, Israel however decimated the enemy in one quick move, a sneak attack that destroyed the entire Egyptian air force, which at the time was a regional power, supplied by USSR.

But this is off topic, as is every other point you made in what I quoted. Israel has never fought a war of agression for the sake of aquiring land.. Palestine is the only region held with people, there are a few smaller areas, an the Golan heights (mutual between Syria and Israel as it maintains peace) but the Palestinians could not be released.. they where essentially like children and Israel had no idea what to do with them..

Jordan wanted Israel to keep the lands.. the last time they allowed Palestinians into their territory the usually quiet nation was in uproar and near civil war.. they caused severe political turmoil and upset the king.

Egypt did not want them either, they actually began a system of fences, walls and security check points just to make sure they don't get over and cause problems.

While every Arab state loves to support Palestine, it is not because they love the people, they love being able to give Israel a headache while not actually doing the work.

Because i have just 500 characters left, and already proved some of your statements wrong, i will ask you a question, and i want it answered this time:

With such an audacious attitude I will.. consider answering your questions.

Imagine the Russian minority in the US is uprising. The UN is against it but Russia places a VETO and they decide to make Ohio a Russian province. They force you and your children out of your house, teargassing American children when they try to throw stones at their tanks, killing civilians and so on. What would you do?

But here is where your primarily wrong.. there are Palestinian citizens in Israel. There is a minority of Muslims.. as there are a minority of Christians, Pagans, Atheist. Aside from that, Britain is the nation that formed Israel, not Israel. The blame lies within them for the turmoil caused.. however history has already determined that the Strong must do what they can, and the Weak suffer what they must.

It is in a sense a game of who is strongest gets the land.. we do not divide lands on the Earth to make it fair to everyone ..

If we did we would have well over 2,000 nations, fractured, torn and thrown into war, had every ethnic group received its own lands..

As for what you call "war crimes" - there has been no known war crime to be committed by the Israeli government, regardless of the biased and wasteful UN. Political statements can be made, but the truthful facts still remain, Israel has not committed known war crimes.

Unethical yes. Stupid at times? Sure thing. Killed civilians? Show me a war where civilians don't die. Civilian buildings destroyed? Of course. Civilians targeted for psychological warfare to break moral and cause severe depression and anxiety? War is hell.

You my friend respond in anger and malcontempt, you throw your emotions around even when trying to bring out the facts. You can name a fact all you want, but the deep seeded hatred towards Israel is already showing. No doubt, like so many others before you, it will be worn on your sleeve by the time you are finished.

And I know my first post was just not up to your standards, leading to personal attacks, insults and apparently your over all demeanor of higher superiority, and dare I say a superior intellect over my self. You are apparently seeing your self in the upper hand because your first shabby post meant something to you, while it looked like malicious anti-Israeli rhetoric heard so many times on these boards. It is evident, by terms like "hostages" instead of prisoner and many other small give aways, the emotion that truly back your post. Not to mention of course the topic is Palestinian independence, so please, let us stick to the historical, political and economic facts that should really be guiding the discussion, or in your case slander slinging, the topic is PALESTINIAN INDEPENDENCE not Israeli wars with Egypt, Syria, Jordan, ect.

Here I thought we could be friends.



-Rock

Nice post, but please don't get personal, when I am complaining that i wanted an answer to something, you don't need to talk about "my standards" , because that has nothing to do with the debate.

Before i start, there is just one thing that isn't fair - i can't post more that 4000 characters, but you do (somehow) - so i will post 2 posts now, to keep things fair.

I want to answer first to your "History Briefing" about Palestine. I started it yes, but just disprove your statement that "Palestine was NEVER a nation" - nothing more. I never said, that this justifies their actions my friend

And you really believe Israel don't started the 6 Day War? Isn't a "preemptive strike" a start? It is. So your statement is wrong - but, you're right if you say they didn't have a choice, i agree. They really had to start it.


As for the War Crimes, i simply can't agree with you. I gave you a link, with over 24 UN resoluions against Israels military activity. On the other side, we have Amnesty International and the UN, who are accusing Israel of War Crimes for their attack on Lebanon last year, depriving 750,000 Palestinians of electricity in the intense summer heat, and the kidnapping on the West Bank of 64 members of the political wing of Hamas, including eight cabinet ministers and 22 members of the Palestinian Legislative Council.

As for what you call "war crimes" - there has been no known war crime to be committed by the Israeli government, regardless of the biased and wasteful UN. Political statements can be made, but the truthful facts still remain, Israel has not committed known war crimes.

The UN is "biased and wasteful"? And Amnesty International and the Red Cross, too? Or do you stamp them like me "Anti Israeli"?

Israel has violated another principle of international law in this offensive: proportionality. Article 51 of the protocol forbids “an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.” Can saving one soldier’s life justify destruction on this scale? So 2000 dead civilians for one captured soldier is not a war crime? Do you have seen the pictures? That's not the first time they bomb civilian buildings and you know it - everyone reading british press knows it.

And you really can answer me with

Show me a war where civilians don't die. Civilian buildings destroyed? Of course. Civilians targeted for psychological warfare to break moral and cause severe depression and anxiety? War is hell.

?? Thanks god you're not a commanding general. Really.

As for the last 1/3 of your post its personal and I won't get into it, like you said, we discuss the Palestinian Independence.

Again, you didn't answer to my last question, because the answer is really easy: You would fight i a resistance group. So, labeling the Hammas as terrorists, isn't the right way. They are resisting an occupation - resisting the wrong way - YES, because Israel is 10 times stronger.

So let's read again the fact: Israel is occupying Palestine - They are expanding more and more, destroying houses leaving over 50.000 civilians homeless so far. And you tell me (in your first post), they want to live with the Palestinians together? It's too late for that, Israel has gone too far. They have no right, their expansion started the bombings, google it or research it otherwise. And let's continue talking about the wall.

So you are my neighbor, and i don't like you. One day i decide to build a wall to protect my self. Strange thing is, i decide to build the wall around your swimming pool, on your property. Of course, you're a little upset, and start throwing stones at my house. So ... (next th.)

.. so i decide, to expand my borders and make a second wall, going tru your living room (and the toilet). Again, I am asking you seriously, won't you get upset even more?

Well, that's exactly the situation on the Gaza Strip right now, it cannot and won't be denied. Just look up all the maps for the last decade, it's prove enough, i even don't need to link them because i expect that you've made that research during this debate.

So this is the key point of this debate. The bombings won't stop, until the aggression stops on Israeli side, and they give back the occupied territory to the Palestinians. But maybe it's even too late, because (on both sides) some people lost their entire loved ones, not to forget the properties, so "hate" play a very effective role.

Bottom line, there were mistakes on both sides during the last 6 centuries of war. Too many people died, and if we believe Amnesty International, there are more civilian deaths on the Palestinian side, that military deaths on the Israeli.

Should i mention Western Journalists (5), who got killed during the past 3 years in the Gaza Strip? There are even whole books about, but Israel denies everything, even the situation taped or photographed. I really recommend you watching this film made by BBC to see, how Israel is caught in several big lies regarding some deaths.

Prove me wrong. Prove BBC wrong. Prove the UN, Amnesty International and the Red Cross wrong. Or, are they all in a conspiracy against the Israelis?

PS: Please don't take this debate personal - I have nothing against you, please concentrate on the facts, and leave my standards out of this. Because Bulgarian standards aren't as good as American (yet)

Nice post, but please don't get personal, when I am complaining that i wanted an answer to something, you don't need to talk about "my standards" , because that has nothing to do with the debate.

My reaction is only to your pathetic attempt at a synopsis of my first post. It was rude, disrespectful and sorely put you in bad light. You should also know your questions are asked in vain, it is not my responsibility to offer you an explanation, an explanation you should bring your self.

I want to answer first to your "History Briefing" about Palestine. I started it yes, but just disprove your statement that "Palestine was NEVER a nation" - nothing more. I never said, that this justifies their actions my friend

OK, you disproved my saying Palestine was not a nation, and you wanted nothing more to do with it? How pointless, you make the statement and I refute it. Palestine was a nation, but it was only a name change from Judea to Palestine by the Emperor Hadrian.

And you really believe Israel don't started the 6 Day War? Isn't a "preemptive strike" a start? It is. So your statement is wrong - but, you're right if you say they didn't have a choice, i agree. They really had to start it.

So, its Israels fault for starting the war.. because they acted pre-emptily? But they had no choice? They "really had to start it", but are still at fault?

My friend you are only talking in circles. The fact is, had Israel not attacked first, Egypt's air force would have gained air superiority, and fast, the entire fleet was produced by the USSR, Migs mostly. The war was coming whether Israel wanted it or not, a strong offense is truly the best defense.

The UN is "biased and wasteful"? And Amnesty International and the Red Cross, too? Or do you stamp them like me "Anti Israeli"?

The UN passes quite a bit of resolutions, however most resolutions against Israel have to do with incursions to cull terrorist attacks in Palestine. Had Palestinians not been blowing up buses and the like, there would be no incursion. The UN seems to miss that detail. Last I checked, blowing up little old ladies and small children on city buses is in fact considered a war crime.

As for Amnesty International, I would strongly advise not using ANY information from them.. not only do they very selectively decide which stories to cover (almost all involve the United States, Israel or the UK) so that they can portrait those they hate in a bad light, completely ignoring crimes against humanity in much of South America, Africa, China, South East Asia, and even the Middle East.. ADL (Anti-Defamation League) called Amnesty International "Bigoted, Biased, and Border Line Anti-Semitic"

?? Thanks god you're not a commanding general. Really.

The facts of war are indeed terrifying. Does not mean we should pretend they don't exist. As I said, war is hell.

I am not even going to attempt to try and find the meaning behind your little analogy, didn't make a whole lot of sense to me to be quite honest.. so I will by-pass the ramblings of opinions and bring about an end to this debate.
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It should be noted that before Israel even took over the Palestinian regions, they where under the control at different times by Egypt, and Jordan. I have already discussed the hate both nations felt for the Palestinians, wanting nothing to do with them.

Palestine is split into two main regions. You have the Gaza Strip, which is a rather tiny piece of land that hugs the Mediterranean Sea. The other and much larger portion is the West Bank, westward from Israel. The only major resource that the West Bank holds is water. The water is shared by both Israel and Jordan. As of now Palestine has no control over the water, as it is a national resource of Israel.

Israel encouraged for several decade the practice of settlements, asking and often paying or subsidizing the movement of often hard line Jews from main Israel to the most outer reaches of the Israeli country side. More often then not, these settlements where illegal, they crossed the "green-line" that formed Israel after the 1948 armistices treaty of the Arab-Israeli war. These settlements showed that the land COULD be turned into fertile land. Some of these settlements became cities, the more successful ones have been salvaged by the Israeli government as they began retreating settlements back away from the Palestinians. This is where you get the confusing network of walls as they try and save their cities. The cities not left within the new boundaries are torn apart, burned, all soil destroyed and all buildings reduced to rubble.

The problem with the way the land was altered, mutated and all around completely changed is that it came at an extremely high price tag. The settlements that faired the best, which had green lawns, parks and fountains where maintained by a higher-class residence, thus more tax money.

Now, you may be wondering where I am going with this.. It is not that I do not wish the Palestinians a home, every one deserves that. The problem lies with the territory, they do not have the resources to turn the land into manageable. The country side is a wasteland, it is barren.

The economy of Palestine is no where near enough to care for the millions who live in the territory. If Palestine where to become a fully independent nation, they would have to receive large amounts of international aid, be it economically and humanitarian to stay at current levels.. this is evident when the world cut ties to Palestine for electing the terrorist group Ham mas into power. The country plummeted, the world bank referred to it as the Great Depression.. and the only thing cut off was foreign aid! .. No one blocked trade with them, except Israel refused to but produce, only 13% of the entire Palestinian economy.. it is irresponsible to allow the rise of a state that will only fall.. it will be destroyed from within by factions struggling to keep power and be the leader for the people.

there are some 3.3 million Palestinians inside the borders of Palestine.. there is another 1.1 million Palestinians that live within Israel (except you think its to late to make amends. Israel has a problem with terrorist and radical Islam, not the people) But throughout the entire region of the Arab state and even America, there are some 8.8 million Palestinians. If Palestine gets independence, you will have to estimate at least an additional 3million Palestinians will return home, the fled the violence, once the violence ends they would return (much like Iraqi's at the beginning of the war, only to have to run again)

A population increase at such a large scale would bring the country to its knees, if it is not there already. There is not a viable economic income source that can provide for so many people. they bring in roughly 1.6billion (800 million+ in aid) dollars in income (tax) and spend an estimated 1.7billion. That of course before the economic aid cut off.

What I see happening, if Palestine gains complete independence, they will run out of money, people will expect Israel to pay them, the United States will end up paying for them, unemployment will sky rocket from the already 15% and crime, gangs, militias will break out and the Israeli Army will have to go in, again, to bring about calm.

When Palestine learns to manage them selves without consistently trying to make war with Israel as an answer to every little problem they have, when they learn to take self responsibility, when they learn that violence will only bring about more violence, then they will have their own state. Israel has no problem with a Palestinian neighbor, so long as its government can keep control of its people.. if not, they end up like Lebanon, who tried to pretend the problem did not exist, and ended up paying a heavy price for their ignorance.

Bottom line, there were mistakes on both sides during the last 6 centuries of war. Too many people died, and if we believe Amnesty International, there are more civilian deaths on the Palestinian side, that military deaths on the Israeli.

Your absolutely right, there had been mistakes on both sides. There have been intentional atrocities by both sides. And not even focusing on 6 centuries of war, but just the past 5 decades.. And while I would never believe a word from Amnesty International, there have been far more military and civilian casualties on the Palestinian side, but you cannot blame Israel entirely. It takes two to make war, and it takes two to make peace. No side is innocent in the atrocities.

If Palestine put as much energy into helping her people and building a better future for its self that it does in training suicide bombers, Palestine future would be bright. right now it is quite gloomy.

Since this is my last post i won't get into answering personal things, and i won't discuss how "rude, disrespectful and so on" I am. This is a debate, not a circus.

The UN passes quite a bit of resolutions, however most resolutions against Israel have to do with incursions to cull terrorist attacks in Palestine.

That's your point of view. Please don't tell me the UN is anti-Semitic I posted a good link with all of the resolutions - have you actually read them all to make such a statement? It seems that you didn't.

As for Amnesty International, I would strongly advise not using ANY information from them.. not only do they very selectively decide which stories to cover (almost all involve the United States, Israel or the UK) so that they can portrait those they hate in a bad light, completely ignoring crimes against humanity in much of South America, Africa, China, South East Asia, and even the Middle East.. ADL (Anti-Defamation League) called Amnesty International "Bigoted, Biased, and Border Line Anti-Semitic"

Well, if you ask people who they trust more, ADL or Amnesty, i think there's a ration about 10:1 in favor for Amnesty. And I don't understand why you complain that they cover the US, UK and Israel - well, those 3 country's just happened to be involved in almost every war. Crimes against humanity in Afrika, Asia and South America are covered in their last 2006 report. So, where is your argument for NOT trusting them? As for the ADL, everyone who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic, same as AIPAC. The world has enough of them playing their "Holocaust Card".

I am sorry, but what is this debate about, if my opponent is telling me that the UN, Amnesty International and the Red Cross are all anti-Semitic? Every time Israel is caught in war crimes or crimes against humanity they are playing their "Anti-Semitic Card" or "Holocaust Card". That's not a poker game here. We are talking about civilian losses and big crimes. It's time to expose them, in 4 little chapters.

Let's concentrate on the fact's

Since the mid 1970's theres been an international consensus to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's called the "2 states settlement". And it's pretty straight forward, uncomplicated. Israel has to fully withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem in accordance to the international law, since it's inadmissible to acquire territory by war.So since they acquired the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem by war it's inadmissible to keep them. That's a fact. They have to be returned (by international law). On the Palestinian side, they have to recognize Israel's right to live in peace and security with it's neighbors.

That was the quick overview of this consensus:
Recognition of Israel, Palestinian right to self determination in the West Bank and Gaza with it's capital in Jerusalem . - There is nothing complicated, isn't it? That's the international consensus.

It's voted on every year in the United Nations, and typically we have about 160+ votes for that consensus, and the US, Israel and some "Banana Republic's" against it.

So, the Israeli government was fully aware of that this was the international consensus. They were opposed to a fully withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem and to create the Palestinian state.

In 1981, as pressure comes to Israel to reach a diplomatic way, they decided to invade Lebanon in order to crush the PLO, because the PLO was on record supporting a 2 State Settlement The main problem for Israel was the "PLO's peace offensive" - they wanted a 2 States Settlement, Israel did not and so Israel decides to crush the PLO in Lebanon. It successfully did so, the PLO goes into exile.

(please don't post anything until i finish my post)

In 1986/87 Palestinians in the occupied territories, dispare of any possibility of international intervention, are entering into an revolt known as the "Palestinian Interfada", basically non violent Palestinian demonstrations in the occupied territories. And this revolt proves to be very successful for the fist couple of years.

1990 is a very important part of the whole conflict. Iraq invades Kuwait, the PLO lend support in Iraq, the war ends, Iraq defeated and all the Gulf States cut all of their money to the PLO. After that, the idea was to have the PLO as a "sub contractor" in the occupied territories with Arafat on the top in order to suppress the democratic tendencies of the Palestinians , or better explained:

Israel had 2 options after the war:
- Israel could have negotiated with the real representatives of the Palestinians who demanded the 2 States Settlement in accordance with the international consensus

OR

Israel could negotiate with Arafat in he hope that he's so desperate, that he can server as their collaborator in order to deny the Palestinians what their entitled to under international law And of course, the Israelis choose Arafat, and that's where the whole big problem began, with Arafat as the "Palestinian Leader".


2000-2001

Lets talk about the peace talks in Camp David (2000) and Ataba (2001). Each side blamed the other for the conflict.

Let's look at the offers, made at those two peace talks.
It's right to say that if you frame things in terms "what Israel wanted" - they made huge confessions.
But if you frame things in terms "what Israel was legally entitled to, under international law" - then Israel did precisely and exactly zero concessions. All the concessions were made by the Palestinians.

There were 4 key issues in those two peace talks (All of those points are documented and can't be dis-proven

1. Settlements
2. Borders
3. Jerusalem
4. Refugees

Lets start with 1. Settlements:
Under international law, there is no dispute, no controversies under article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention:
- It's illegal, for any occupying country to transfer it's population to occupied territory
All of the settlements are illegal under international law! No dispute, the world court in July 2004 ruled that all the settlements are illegal.

The Palestinians were willing to even give the Israelis 50% of the settlements in the West Bank - That was a monumental concession, going well beyond anything that was demanded from them under international law (!)

Let's continue with 2. Borders:
"Its inadmissible to acquire territory by war" and under international law, Israel would have to withdraw from all of the West Bank and Gaza as I am quoting the World Court it in July 2004, "those are occupied Palestinian territories".

However there is space to argue about percentages, but there is no question that the Palestinians even were ready to make concessions on the borders. What percentage, there's differences, but there is no questions that they were willing to make concessions, even they were not supposed to under international law (!)

3. Jerusalem
Strange thing is, Israel has not even one point of sovereignties of Jerusalem under international law. Read the World Court decision, they concluded that "Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory", that's official my friend.

Well, even here, the Palestinians were willing to divide (even if they were not supposed to by international law) Jerusalem into one Arab (Palestinian) and one Jewish (Israel) side.

And finally,
4. Refugees
Under international law (as backed up by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch), every Palestinian has the right to return to it's former territory, in this case big parts of Israel occupied lands, and so on.

Bottom Line: Israel has to withdraw. Point.

I have 2000 characters left

So, this debate isn't easy. Rockpuck made some very good moral and ethical points. But overall, we can't just ignore the international law.

There's a big double standard if we look how international law is being used. On the one side, its being used for war's with Iraq, Afghanistan and sanctions against Iran and North Korea - but on the other side, it's totally ignored when it comes to Israel and the conflict in "their" Middle East.

That can't be. And criticizing Israel for ignoring the international law for more that 40 years isn't anti-Semitic. I am not an anti-Semitic. But of course, if that continues, what will happen? Why aren't there any sanctions for Israel? Yes, because the US is voting against them. So it's seems it's a circle with US/Israel on the main buttons, and no one can do anything. It's just not right. You can't invade one country because it's not operating under international law, but approve another country witch isn't either. That's a double standard that has to stop.

If it doesn't, more people will die on both sides. A victim is a victim, no matter of his race, no matter if it's a so called "terrorist" or Jewish soldier. They're all human beings, dieing because of that double standard.

And finally, Israel will play every time it's "Your anti-Semitic" and "Holocaust" Card, when they receive pressure. That was even used in this thread as a main argument of Rockpuck.

So my question is:

Is the Holocaust justifying War Crimes on the Palestinian population? Is it justifying 40 years of ignoring the international law?

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I wanna thank Rockpuck for being my opponent in this debate, ATS for sponsoring it, and of course I am ready to discuss it further with any person.

Georgi Grancharov
dip. in International Relations, Sofia

You're late. Was starting to think you forgot about me.

That's your point of view. Please don't tell me the UN is anti-Semitic I posted a good link with all of the resolutions - have you actually read them all to make such a statement? It seems that you didn't.

I never once said the UN was anti-semitic. Perhaps you need new reading glasses. Or perhaps you need to learn to actually read what I posted. The UN I biased in many cases, they are ineffective, they are a group of do-nothings. They lack the ability to support what they say, and they often speak in circles to please everyone. There is also a list of war crimes and crimes against humanity actually done by UN peace keepers. Africa sex-for-food? Much like the Oil-for-food in Iraq only involving children.

Well, if you ask people who they trust more, ADL or Amnesty, i think there's a ration about 10:1

Only the far left follow the preachings of Amnesty. Cases like there attempt to call our Cuban prison a place of torture and inhumane treatment. They even wanted enemy combatants to have civil trials in American court rooms!! They have an agenda, like most, but there agenda is blatantly anti-American, anti-semitic and hardcore left wing.

if my opponent is telling me that the UN, Amnesty International and the Red Cross are all anti-Semitic?

Again, trying to spin what I say because you have nothing to refute my claims. Never did I say the UN was anti-semitic, never did I say the Red Cross is anti-semitic. What the Red Cross comes out with is generally fact, Israel committed war crimes in Lebanon by Red Cross standards and I fully support the Red Cross in their decision, to a point. I would not call them "war crimes" in the sense that the word and meaning is not to be thrown around to easily. They where at war and made stupid choices, but that happens in damn near every war. the UN has also made many of the same observations. Amnesty however fabricates much of what they present, spin words and meanings to bring out their agenda.

Since the mid 1970's theres been an international consensus to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's called the "2 states settlement". And it's pretty straight forward, uncomplicated. Israel has to fully withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem in accordance to the international law, since it's inadmissible to acquire territory by war.

There was a UN resolution that called for Israel to withdraw from occupied territories after the six days war. Israel withdrew troops from all except Palestine and the Golan Heights. The reason they remained in Palestine was the lack of law and order. It was essentially a place of near anarchy, militant groups held the majority of the power, and none where friendly to Israel. Israel however did comply. Palestine has their own government, their own revenue income, their own economy and army.

BUT

When you cannot control those within your borders from attacking your neighbor and in Arafats case actually sponsor and endorse it, then Israel has every right to move troops in for self protection. It would be no different then if Canadians started attacking people across the border in Washington, if Canada does not stop the problem you can bet the United States would. If Palestine where to stop attacking Israel, there would be no need for the Israeli troops to be there. I fail to see how that is hard to understand. You come to the conclusion that every attack from Palestine is a retaliation for an attack against Israel when it is actually the other way around.

In 1981, as pressure comes to Israel to reach a diplomatic way, they decided to invade Lebanon in order to crush the PLO, because the PLO was on record supporting a 2 State Settlement

Wow what complete ignorance. Israel ordered the attack after an assassination attempt by PLO on an Israeli diplomat, a last straw kind of deal. The entire war came about because after the 1948 Arab Israeli war over 110,000 Palestinian refugees moved into southern Lebanon. The Lebanese government was just as weak then as it is today.. they could not control the actions of these Palestinians within their borders and simply let them do as they please.. attacks and assassination attempts against Israel led the Israeli army to attack southern Lebanon, in an effort to destroy the PLO, Syrian sympathizers and other Muslim radicals. The war ended up being Israels Vietnam, they did not want to be there, they had to be there.

Please, stick to facts Absente because making things out of thin air does not win this argument.

3. Jerusalem
Strange thing is, Israel has not even one point of sovereignties of Jerusalem under international law. Read the World Court decision, they concluded that "Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory", that's official my friend.

First. There is no such thing as international law. That is, my friend, a liberal fantasy. Bigger guns = law. International standards may exist, but no law.. and why is there no international law?

To have a law you have to be able to support it. Israel has no right to Jerusalem? OK, who's going to stop them? The UN?

Also, the United States, nor Israel accept the existence of the "world court" it is also an appeasement establishment with no power what so ever, it is not recognized and there for useless.

Israel's capital is Jerusalem .. that is enough right there.. it is not "who has ties and sovereignty" over the land, that is NOT how international affairs work AT ALL. In fairy tale land sure, but not in the real world.

Israel has the power to keep the land, it is theirs. They give half to the Palestinians, they don't have to, if they wanted to they could remove every Palestinian from the city and make it theirs, but they don't.

If China where to take Taiwan, it would be Chinese.. it is no longer relevant to who had sovereignty over the land first.. unless someone makes China leave..

Same thing with Israel and Palestine.. international Law cannot make a state do anything.. nor can a "world court" which is a mockery of everything diplomatic.

So, this debate isn't easy. Rockpuck made some very good moral and ethical points. But overall, we can't just ignore the international law.

Moral and Ethical? I knew you read nothing of my posts.

I gave economic facts along with many others as to why Palestine simply cannot operate on its own at the present time.. They simply cannot make a viable state with the land they currently have and the funds they have.. it would take billions upon billions of international aid to turn the state around.. and no one will give to them because they refuse to lay down their weapons and accept peace.

Also, again, we can ignore international law, as it does not exist.

You can't invade one country because it's not operating under international law, but approve another country witch isn't either. That's a double standard that has to stop.

Israel does not invade Palestine because it breaks international law, that has never been a reason. they invade because Palestine is killing innocent civilians, not even trying to target military personnel. That is why Israel invades.. and in your international law standards yes, Palestine would actually be breaching it first.

And finally, Israel will play every time it's "Your anti-Semitic" and "Holocaust" Card, when they receive pressure. That was even used in this thread as a main argument of Rockpuck.

I have only heard a statement like this from the Israeli government in response to some Arab states.. like Iran.. because they are blatantly anti-semitic.. holocaust cartoon contest? Never have I heard them respond like that because someone said they should leave Palestine..

Is the Holocaust justifying War Crimes on the Palestinian population? Is it justifying 40 years of ignoring the international law?

I honest to god have no idea how the hell you came to that conclusion, nor where it came from.. Israel has never once used to to justify anything except their existence (the forming of the state its self) and never in response to any war they had been in. They recognize some states may want a new holocausts, like Iran, but as for Palestine? No. Again, no idea where you came up with such an audacious claim.

I gave my main reasons Palestine cannot operate yet as a fully independent state away from Israel in my last post, and so there is no need repeating the details..

Palestine has no central control, they cannot control the population and its actions. The government is weak, there are to many factions and to many call for open war with Israel.

The Palestinians are not innocent when it comes to the horrific military actions that have happened.. we all remember the raids, the bus bombings, we know it is a perpetual cycle of attacks.. because the Palestinian government either supports the attacks, or cannot do anything about it like the current government Israel has the right to keep the land under their control. For economic reasons and so forth, right now Palestine is not ready.

I am out of space,

Thank you Absente for the debate, Chissler for setting it up for us, no hard feelings Absente

Now. Let the judging begin!

With that, the debate between Rockpuck and absente has officially ended.

I will now close this thread and hand it over to the judges to determine who is the winner.

Stay Tuned... !

The results are in, and we have a winner. Another Head-2-Head Debate has come to an end and the judges have made their decision.

I would like to congratulate both members on a hard fought debate and I look forward to seeing you both back here in the future. Job well done!

Now onto our message from the judges.



Both members worked hard in their stance and we applaud both of them are putting up a valiant effort. But we feel that there is a clear cut winner on this debate, as one of the two seemed to contradict themselves ever so slightly.

With this debate, we the judges feel that absente put forth a stronger argument and is proclaimed the winner on this Head-2-Head Debate.

Congrats to both of you on a great debate!



Short and sweet here guys. Our judges on this round were scrounging for time, and rather than delay the results any further, I had them cut back on feedback in order to get the winner announced.

All in all, I thought this was an enjoyable debate and it was a pleasure to read it.

One final congrats to both members and I hope you are both willing to do battle in the future.

With that, this thread is now open to any "Fighter" who wishes to comment.

Well, we had to wait indeed very long for that result I want to thank the judges for their objective vote on that very difficult matter. Thank You.

I hope, some people got additional information during this debate and understand some key points of that crisis now even better, than they did before.

Regards,

Georgi Grancharov

Nice going - both of you!


Congrats Absente

Congrats Absente.

I would love to know how I "conradicted" myself.