Forest on Mars !?!?

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Sure, green is a good probability.
But who knows the composition of Mars' atmosphere when these
theoretical microbes first began to flourish?
What was the ratio of gasses?
Where were the most hospital regions at the time?
What latitude?
Was there atmospheric refraction?
Did they live in the oceans? If so, how deep?

Agree with you.

Chemical and physical proprieties of elements - can lead us to imagine various kinds of life: for example _ thinking of life on Titan. I imagine very light bone animals due to 1/7 Earth gravity...in fact it could be a paradise for bird, low gravity + thick foggy air.....no pigment or slightly reddish due to thick cloud layer and no exposition to harsh Sun rays.... perhaps larger than on Earth...slow in motion due to long day and long year ....

* and than you encounter dilemma: is it water oceans down there or it is to cold...than there is methane life...but on the other hand, there is abundance of carbon monoxide and dioxide and water vapor in the atmosphere - that indicate water....

But there is also nitrogen rich atmosphere like on Earth...with many molecules that where on our own planet before...

What kind of animal life would be under such ocean...
* maby soft baleen squid or blister warm:






source

Love thinking of what kind of life can emerge somewhere in this huge Universe of ours.

Originally posted by blue bird
The living Martian landscape...

nice lichens... thats the picture that has the Madonna in the center

First of all - neither Spirit or OPortunity are equipped for exploration of organic life.

They should put Zoe down there to scan for living organisms!

Zoe



And not to mention what is inside caves...

And what about bacteria that NASA brought on Mars?

'ESA Mars Conference in the Netherlands that 75 percent of the attending scientists now believe that Mars may have had life, and 25 percent saying that Mars may currently have life'

mrs news

Neat ha?

One thing about main stream scientists...

they eventually do come around...

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by razor1000i wish there was a junk filter.

Yeah I would love to filter out junk like your post

Umm this is the Space Exploration area you know and we are showing current interesting photos of the Martian surface...

so ummm exactly what is your problem with that? And please explain to me why trees wouldn't be green on another planet?

As you say... you don't know what the atmosphere is made of, well it has a LOT of Co2 (carbon dioxide) in it.. You know the stuff YOU breathe out, the stuff that plants on Earth breathe in....and in turn breathe out oxygen Look it up then you will actually know something

:shk:

ok zorgon u got my attention, ok you are right about the co2, but no one knows what colors leaves will be over there they are green here on earth because the chlorophil uses up all the other light because of enviromental factors in mars things will be different since its another enviroment.

Okay I will grant you that they can be a different color... Spacedoubt posted some nice info on that fact... but the only difference in light on Mars is the intensity as the sun is further away, not the spectrum of light.. And we do have a pretty good idea of the chemicals in the Martian atmosphere, that is , if NASA and ESA are not lying about that...

So yes, they can be another color... here on Earth there are several leaves that have a different color like the ornamental plum Bright red... The red Oak.... dark purple as a sample

But they COULD just as easily be GREEN

Originally posted by zorgon
Okay I will grant you that they can be a different color... Spacedoubt posted some nice info on that fact... but the only difference in light on Mars is the intensity as the sun is further away, not the spectrum of light.. And we do have a pretty good idea of the chemicals in the Martian atmosphere, that is , if NASA and ESA are not lying about that...

So yes, they can be another color... here on Earth there are several leaves that have a different color like the ornamental plum Bright red... The red Oak.... dark purple as a sample

But they COULD just as easily be GREEN

dude what do you have against NASA yeah sure they are a goverment agency but comeon they at least provide us with something thats good for society and thats hope

Originally posted by razor1000
dude what do you have against NASA yeah sure they are a goverment agency but comeon they at least provide us with something thats good for society and thats hope

Well that depends... if what we have discovered is true... and NASA has been on the moon and Mars for over 40 years making deals with Aliens for the good of the New Elite while we will be left to face whats going to happen on Earth...

Nah I got no problem with NASA



Let me ask you a question... have you ever heard of the "Aquila" ?

Originally posted by zorgon

... have you ever heard of the "Aquila" ?

Do you mean one of Ptolomy bird shaped constellation .............. or Aquila of Sinope or.......................... Zeus eagle who carried Ganymede to the heavens................or the stars seen in Indya as a footprint of Vishnu..................... or the Summer Triangle with the brightist star in Aquila - Altair wich represents roysl herdsman and Vega represents Sun King





I am joking....I know Zorgon - that you mean a mystery of rotating Universe - idea that Universe have optical axis, like quartz crystal ....Aquila - Earth - Sextans...

Clarke said that constellation Aquila bear many novae....to many in comparison with the rest of Universe....

Oh...great subject...love it


Axis of evil

Is there why so many nations have mighty Heavenly messenger - Eagle as their symbol? To lead our souls to immortality?






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[edit on 10-5-2007 by blue bird]

Wanted to get involved in this thread some weeks ago and only noticed it's growth a day ago.

Originally posted by Xtal_Phusion
If you like, I can list the biochemical reasons why this is simply not possible (since it is my job to know!) but I suspect you'd rather play in the land of make-believe than learn a little science.

I suppose such a list can be made but then scientist always have 'lists' of reasons why things can not be possible right up until they all admit that they always knew it to be true and that they never disagreed or had 'such stupid lists'.

The best big thing insearching for life on Mars is Lab-on-a-chip technology to search for biomarkers (indicators of life that still has NOT been found there yet!).

Based on the design and mission specifications we found life on Mars back in 1976 so your either not telling the truth or just lying.

I don't think 6-figure grants and years of development would have been spent on this technology if we had PICTURES of multicellular organisms! Yeesh!

They regularly cancel DOD programs that billions ( 10 figures if i recall) had been spent on and if you can find me evidence that the volume of money wasted had much to do with the effectiveness or usefulness of the research we can talk some more. Since the rover time we have had dozens of pictures of fossils of multi cellular life.

Why don't we all start here: What to lichens and plants release into the atmosphere that is NOT present in the Martian atmosphere?

Since i am no biochemist ( or someone who wants to pretend to be one) i can only post information on what is being released..

"I stand before you and tell you, quite honestly, I'm shocked by these results," said Michael Mumma, an astrobiologist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.

Mumma and colleagues discovered unusually high levels of methane at two places in Mars' atmosphere: above the Hellas Basin, a giant impact scar in Mars' southern hemisphere, and Valles Marineris, the great canyon system near the Martian equator.

Methane is a gas that, on Earth, is produced naturally by plants and animals, such as in wetlands and in the stomachs of cows. On Mars, methane is much rarer. It isn't produced in the atmosphere and likely would be destroyed there by chemical reactions within a few hundred years.

So finding methane in the atmosphere suggests that something on Mars' surface is producing it, Mumma said. The question is whether that something is alive.

seattletimes.nwsource.com...

BOULDER, Colorado – Evidence for intense local enhancements in methane on Mars has been bolstered by ground-based observations. The methane, as well as water on Mars, was detected using state-of-the-art infrared spectrometers stationed atop Mauna Kea, Hawaii and in Cerro Pachón, Chile.

Scientific teams around the globe are on the trail of methane seeping out of Mars. And for good reason: The methane could be the result of biological processes. It could also be an "abiotic" geochemical process, however, or the result of volcanic or hydrothermal activity on the red planet.

Many types of microbes here on Earth produce a signature of methane. Indeed, the tiny fraction of atmospheric carbon found as methane on our planet is churned out almost entirely biologically with only a very small contribution from abiotic processes, scientists sa

www.space.com...

Furthermore, he says winds should spread water vapour through the atmosphere too quickly for it to be concentrated in certain spots. "It would take a tremendous source of water in the surface to pump water into the atmosphere faster than it would be redistributed," he says.

Krasnopolsky, standing by his methane detection, says winds should spread the trace amounts of methane around too. He believes the methane he detected is produced by bacteria that live in "oases" where liquid water can exist - however briefly - on the Martian surface, due to heating by sunlight or by a hydrothermal source.

He argues that a non-biological source of methane is unlikely because crater-counting methods suggest no surface lava on Mars is younger than 10 million years old.

But he will not rule out the possibility that underground bubbles of methane from ancient volcanism might somehow be brought to the surface to replenish the atmosphere.

www.newscientist.com...

And then there are the even stranger finds that really defy reasonable alternative explanations...

Formisano showed evidence of the presence of formaldehyde in the atmosphere. Formaldehyde is a breakdown product of methane, which was already known to be present in the Martian atmosphere, so in itself its presence is not so surprising. But Formisano measured formaldehyde at 130 parts per billion.

To astrobiologists it was an incredible claim. It means huge amounts of methane must be produced on Mars. (While methane lasts for hundreds of years in the atmosphere, formaldehyde lasts for only 7.5 hours.) "It requires that 2.5 million tons of methane are produced a year," said Formisano.

"There are three possible scenarios to explain the quantities: chemistry at the surface, caused by solar radiation; chemistry deep in the planet, caused by geothermal or hydrothermal activity; or life," he added.

wired.com...

And then on the surface itself:

Mars Once Green? - Carole Stoker and Pascal Ashwanden, both researchers at NASA's Ames Research Center in California, have announced that they have found evidence suggesting that chlorophyl exists on the surface of Mars. Finding chlorophyl, the material that plants and algae use to convert sunlight into food, would be strong evidence that life one existed on the planet. Chlorophyl is what gives plants their characteristic green color. The discovery came to light when the scientists reexamined data from a 1997 mission to Mars. The results of their study was presented at the Second Astrobiology Science Conference last month.

www.unmuseum.org...

A detailed analysis of the images of the landing site now reveals two areas close to Pathfinder that have the spectral signature of chlorophyll.
According to experts it might be highly significant - or could be just a patch of coloured soil.
Specifically, the program looked for the spectral signature associated with red light absorption by chlorophyll.

Previous searches for evidence of chlorophyll in Pathfinder's pictures were carried out shortly after it landed.
Some tentative indications were seen but they were later dismissed as "possible image misregistration".

news.bbc.co.uk...

So they have plenty to work from and should have been able to reach the logical and obvious conclusion to all of it.

Originally posted by Xtal_Phusion
Too little energy is generated through anoxygenic photosynthesis. By default, this leaves us MICROORGANISMS! Chlorobium, otherwise known as green sulfur bacterium would be a good example. Most likely, however chemical constraints (pressure, temp, desiccation, etc.) would require reliance on a type of metabolism called chemoautotrophy.

But should we trust them when they knowingly supply false data relating to the average surface/atmospheric pressure on Mars, the positive tests for life in 1976, their alternation of the colour of the martian sky from the rovers position, hiding of the fossil evidence and their continued tampering related to the Cydonia region ? Why do we have pictures of flowing water at Martian poles for instance and what does that allow in terms of life?

www.msss.com...

www.msss.com...

www.msss.com...

On Earth, microbes called extremophiles are clustered in a domain of life called Archaea (not the same as regular bacteria or "Eubacteria"). It is generally accepted that these are among the most ancient forms of cellular life on Earth today. Metabolic processes in this group can be very bizarre. Methanogens generate methane gas from simple hydrocarbons (i.e., methanol, ethanol), others live at very high/low pH, others still live at hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor where temperatures reach 130C or more. The most unusual is a polyextremophile called Deinococcus radiodurans. This bug surivived exposure to space outside the shuttle in orbit, makes a habit out of living in cooling tanks with spent rods at nuclear power plants and contains multiple copies of genes on circular DNA that stacks like a lifesaver to facilitate repair of broken fragments!

All true as far as i know and the reason why we should not disregard life on Mars even if one chose to believe the official science data relating to temp, pressure and the Composition the Martian atmosphere.

This is true science and even more incredible than most realize! If you want to talk about life on Mars, how about discussing bugs that metabolize hydrogen and live deep beneath the Martian soil?

All true but one wonders why 'we the people' are not allowed to see all the data and why some in the science community will then use that power to make claims that do not represent what they know.

They may not even HAVE DNA in their genomes! Think about it! According to the RNA world hypothesis, RNA was used before DNA and protein (performs the functions of both biomolecules to a less efficient degree & is still needed for many intermediate steps). A few groups are even working on other possible genetic systems and those are PNA (peptide backbone), TNA (threose backbone) and GNA (glycerol). Shall I outline some thermodynamic equations to demonstrate the differences between oxygenic and anoxygenic photosynthesis?

All good and well but considering what we have seen so far i don't see why we should go so far when what we understood about life on Earth in the 1960's proved sufficient to find life on Mars. Once we know that all the scientific data is in fact credible we may want to seek alternative explanations for how these forms of life manages their environment but until then we can work with what we know and simply assume ( if not due to proximity then because we find faces and apparent evidence of artificiality of some structures) that Martian life has much in common with life on Earth.

Stellar

Thank you Stellar for your contribution to thread.

Funny, I just wanted to post Michael Mumma statement about findings of methane on Mars ( and for now 3 independent researchers team confirmed methane).


And I highly daubted - that methane is result of vulcanic activity ...it must be a very volcanic effect, coz sunlight destroy methane in about 300 years!!?

Than we are left - with biological origin of that gas, living microbes.

Methane on Mars may be produced at rates 3000 times higher than previously thought and partially destroyed by dust storms, controversial new research suggests.

source

I forget to say that so far, NO active volcanic spot has been detected on the Mars by the numerous spacecraft currently in orbit.

Click on headline “methane on mars“ by discovery channel fot video!


* and methane is found always in connection with hydrogen on Mars
Hellas basin:

Areas east and west of the huge Hellas Basin impact crater showed strong methane concentrations as well, areas where NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter found subsurface hydrogen in high abundance.

'Nearly six miles (nine kilometers) deep and 1,300 miles (2,100 kilometers) across, the basin is surrounded by a ring of material that rises 1.25 miles (about two kilometers) above the surroundings and stretches out to 2,500 miles (4,000 kilometers) from the basin center.'

Mumma and his team are requesting telescope time at the Infrared Telescope Facility and at the W. M. Keck Observatory (Keck instrumentation link), also in Hawaii.

Initial Reports of Vittorio Formisano's data anlaysis indicating formaldehyde concentration are at Scientist argues case for life on Mars, Martian gases pose life question. The hubub died down, when Formisano made clear that he was not claiming to have detected formaldehyde: And no formaldehyde either, And back from Ischia and Formaldehyde again.

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*large image;






[edit on 10-5-2007 by blue bird]

Originally posted by blue bird

I am joking....I know Zorgon - that you mean a mystery of rotating Universe - idea that Universe have optical axis, like quartz crystal ....Aquila - Earth - Sextans...

LOL great stuff to be sure, Bluebird... but as always NASA likes using those old Greeks for naming spacecraft....

no i havent what is that and please keep it short for me thanks.

as far as nasa goes the only thing that anoys me about them is that they spend too much money and take too much time to do some stuff that seems very simple why not just go for the big stuff and patch any wholes along the way.

As far as aliens i dont care about aliens, if they want to invade earth let them then they will be as miserable as we are

www.marsanomalyresearch.com...

Originally posted by razor1000 is that they spend too much money

Actually they spend very little money, and most of that money is recovered 10 fold by offshoot products that are developed for and because of the space program Velcro is one that the common man should be familiar with for example...

The reason they take so much time is they don't SPEND ENOUGH money to do it right

As far as the Aluria is concerned as you only have passing interest its a LEO/Moon/Mars run cargo transport that can carry 680 tons... not found in your main stream sources

Originally posted by twistingtree
www.marsanomalyresearch.com...

I know this seems silly. It looks unreal...but the photo looks official. But what is with the human head in the below photo?




Is this for real???