Mk-Ultra - On a Mass Scale?

For those of you interested in the subject, I found a wonderful video the other day.

Anyone out there care to deconstruct the applications and purpose of the MKULTRA program?



I've been piecing bits and pieces together my entire life about how a program like this could actually work - en masse and with postive effects to both the populace and the nation as a whole.

The problem lies in the facts that humans are complex beings, and what generally serves to control one person, may not always work with others.

We all have our preferences, our respective tastes and ideas - so how would a mass mind control project work?

I have a few theories.

Just curious if anyone else out there would like to tackle this subject before I really get into the heart of my observations and conclusions.

Even one reply, and I'll open the gates.



[edit on 3-4-2007 by GENERAL EYES]

Hmmm.. I sit here gathering my thoughts..

First, great video, not entirely biased if you listen to the language, and essentially sticking to the basic facts.

The facts are as follows.

The United States Government has been working on mind control techniques since the late 1940's on a large scale, peaking in the 1950's-60's.

The United States Government is still working on mind control, in various forms. And you can bet they came a long way since the 50's....

However, the movie it was pointed out if you paid well enough attention the basic reasoning for MKULTRA:

Warfare.

NOT citizen control, however it is researched and experimented MKULTRA was designed to be effective in combat / interrogation situations, to break Soviet prisoners and protect our own from those techniques.

Mind control on an individual is so VERY different then mind control of a population.. shock therapy, sounds therapy, illicit drugs will NOT work on an entire population, such as America with a population of 300 million..

Hitler.. he effectively used mind control.

Brainwashing, as the video so rightly put it, is the effective destruction of the opinion and morals of an individual and replacing them in a short amount of time.

Hitler took an entire population and within a limited amount of time changed the moral norms entirely.. neighbors sold out neighbors, men walked to their death for his, now their, ideas. For the Father Land they raised hell under the Nazi banner, all because one man was able to convince them HIS ideas would SAVE THEM.

Saving? Aye, the population was in crisis, they had no where to turn, so naturally they follow the strong hand and firm voice, some one able to charm them with speeches and rallies, who can express with confidence that things are going to change, effectively altering their normal perception. Germany was changed quickly, through propaganda and economic hard times, mind control over a population is like a wild fire. Ideas spread quick and far, especially when they will save you. People get caught in the storm and what may have a year ago been irrational, insensible or even morally wrong is now ok, they where being saved, their perception of what was normal was altered when every one around them agreed with the government.

That is mind control, it has been used since man formed communities.

SOO .. To your question GE .. HOW can it be brought upon a population? I will assume you mean, how do you take a nation, America as the example and apply mind control to alter its perception of norms to go along with the "plan"?

First, disaster, preferably economic, but the fear of unknown enemies works well... 9/11 was just but one example of both military and economic hard times.. we saw live on tv people jumping to their deaths, fire fighters running to their doom and the buildings falling in the most powerful city on earth, our city. We think the enemy where nomads from a dust bowl nation on the other side of the globe, which imo scared us even more that such rudimentary backwards people could pull such a thing off against the worlds remaining super power..

So, in the days following the attack, the market crash, our leaders passed through bipartisan, the patriot act that OTHERWISE would have been laughed out of Congress..

not assuming 9/11 was an inside job, if it happened to be a real attack our leaders used it to their advantage, patriotism fueled the passing of a bill they knew otherwise would not be passed, but it made the central government more powerful, even if they did not initiate the attack they still used the attack to create the fervor that is mind control, or the control of emotion!

If the government can create a economic crisis on a severe enough scale, and initiate a military threat mocked or real -- Hitler used Jews and degenerates, Catholics and Masons as his victims to pose a threat, even though they where no threat to the German people -- the people will be more inclined to do what humans normally do.. look to someone else to solve their problems.

Now, a great speaker and good leader (in the sense of managing, NOT compassion) can mold peoples views, feed them information to make them conform to his ideas, he will save them, and not just save them, no, he will make them stronger, more powerful and better then before, the people who attacked will be crushed.

You cannot control a population with train cars, camps and death squads..

Those empires last no more then 50 years before they succumb to the very people they control.. ask and of histories tyrants..

But if you captivate the people, if you captivate their hearts and minds, you have control. You still cannot ABUSE the control, because you will not be effective, you have to lead. Democracy can be called the problem of the people.. it would be incredibly easy to point out the flaws, the joke Congress is, the pathetic leadership, demand kingship, emperor, what ever title you want, and so long as you still have the hearts and minds of the people, they will throw down democracy and embrace what ever you want..

9/11 was not used in this fashion because 1. The government was inept to handle the situation.. 2. Bush is not a "good leader" hes simply a president. Being elected to power does not make you great.. how many presidents can you name from fame? Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt..... not because they where elected president, but because they where GOOD LEADERS .. even if we don't agree with them.. we remember Caesar? Because his leadership was renowned.. we know Hitler because of the way he molded the people and raised hell.. for the carnage and the fact he came out of no where and did it..

Bush was not meant for the history books, and if not for 9/11 he would be forgotten. Had Bush had the ability to captivate people effectively (in other words have more balls.. be a better speaker not a slack jawed yokel..) he could have taken America from Democracy to Tyranny in a week.. support for him fell apart quickly though.

If you are not charismatic enough, mind control cannot work on a population.. FEAR is not mind control, it is extortion, it is CONTROL with mental side effects.. you are not altering their thought process just preventing its expression..

Drugs may make a mass amount of people compliant, but you CANNOT run a country. You cannot COMPETE with the world..

Therapies CANNOT work on mass populations because it takes a massive base support, at least 5 times the support staff per individual of the population being controlled.. it is.. impossible.

FEAR is control..

MIND control is as described above, and it is how Hitler planned to rule the world.. to make people see it his way, to show them a better way to live, to offer improvement.. which is how he gained power in the first place. Propaganda and anything related to it is all related to this.. if the leader cannot acclaim power FIRST he has no chance of controlling a population.....

--Rock

Wonderful post, Rockpuck. Very valid points.

For me, the fascination with psychological operations began with how the works of the past could be used as a foundation for a more enlightened and engineered society.

In this sense - "control" is not one of force and under threat of punishment, although there are still applications of such for those who do not fall in line with the status quo - the criminal class, for instance.

I'm convinced we are at a crux in history. Some of us will move forward, some us us will remain where we are, and some...will simply disappear.

Might I offer Part One of "Engineering Consent" - a wonderful documentary which shows how Freudian theory is be behind the psychology being used to keep the masses complacent...(I recommend the entire series for a fully comprehensive foundation on the subject.)

MKULTRA was not the beginning.



Now, if we were to take this Freudian model and apply it to the world around us today, we have a direct link to why the psychiatric community is hell bent on the medication of the populace.

Quite simply, with this viewpoint, all human beings are irrational and essentially "dangerous".

Now - as I see it, this is a good safeguard for those members of the human population who are indeed governed by such drives. Supplicate the subconsious through entertainment and consumer goods, the regulated "rebellion" of the teenage years, and said profiteering off the instinctual drives.

Enter the "pleasure principle" and reward system. In our society, hard work and right choices are rewarded with the new car, the nice house, the good paying job - we are rewarded for our social work and given privilages for our service.

But here's the rub - in the recent years, I have noticed a disturbing trend in social movements that no longer give credit to higher thinking, nor do they give rewards for good behavior - instead, childlike attidues and egocentic pandering are rewarded.

Just be an entertainer and you'll have it made.

Interesting, I smell a touch of Huxley in this...remember how in Brave New World the lower classes had everything engineered for them to be happy?

Heck - I can see it around me every day.

But the trends have become disturbing.

Is this planned?

Of course.

Which brings me to my point about MKULTRA - could such a program be utilized to make the weaker members of our society systematically self destruct?

Combine poor diet and a bad living environment, substandard television programmes and constant reinforcement of illness, death and futility...add poor quality street drugs....and I see a large increase in suicide rates, criminal cases and genocide within certain members of the populace.

Who would this affect? Not just the "lower classes" - but those people who were already hardwired for self destruction. The strong, regardless of social or economic position, will fight through the process - while those who have already accepted failure will slowly disappear from the culture.

No need to label anyone by race, creed, or ethinicity - it doesn't matter.

The weak minds will fail at the test, and be removed from the dominant culture.

No one gets their hands dirty, because the right to excercise free choice was not violated. And if the suicide attempt fails - well, there's just one more medical bill and medication to doll out until the inevitable happens.

It's a well engineered form of Social Darwinism.

If one takes into consideration the amount of incarcerated drug dealers and substance abusers who have committed serious crimes - it's easy to ask oneself if the drugs might have unleashed the very "dangerous and irrational" thoughts that Freud proposed.

The tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

I know just threw out a lot of information there, and it's by no means conclusive at this point...but they're just examples.

I wanted to address this topic because the two most dominant trends I see today in effect on the masses are the Orwellian and Huxleyan versions of social systems...yet the majority of the dominant culture only sees Big Brother - no one sees Ford.

When I was in school, the advanced classes were given Brave New World to read and report on, while the general classes read 1984.

Coincidence?

When most people read about MKULTRA - they only hear about it's infancy.

Times have changed and designer drugs are more readily available to the populace than ever before - even sanctioned in some lifestyles.

Combine that with the endless repitition of ideas, issues and reinforcement through mass communications - we can begin to shape the populace into a docile, illiterate, consumer culture.

History will indeed become "bunk" to the majority of the people, and their lives will revolve (much as they already do) around television idols, movie stars, the "news" (forgive me if I laugh about the current situation...I myself can never remember if it's Eurasia of Eastasia)...and you have everyone sitting at home, online and out of the way on the internet.

Truely - it's a well engineered system. We have learned from the past.

But where will the future take us in regards to Free Choice?

Especially in a culture where the majority of the populace are not well informed enough to make an accurate and informed opinion on anything aside from consumer choices?

[edit on 5-4-2007 by GENERAL EYES]

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES
Anyone out there care to deconstruct the applications and purpose of the MKULTRA program?

It's all been said before General. Life is just an endless cycle of repeating events. We either learn from our mistakes, innovate, and work as a whole towards a common vision or we all perish.

I think that you'll find the the words of FDR inspiring. I just listened to his speech.

“Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”: FDR’s First Inaugural Address
historymatters.gmu.edu...



[edit on 6-4-2007 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

It's all been said before General.

I'd love the links to your sources.

If you could take the time to post them (for the sake of others who might come across this subject and not be as advanced on the topic) that would be wonderful.

Life is just an endless cycle of repeating events. We either learn from our mistakes, innovate, and work as a whole towards a common vision or we all perish.

I'll tell the Dali Lama you dropped by.

I fully respect your opinion and contribution thus far. I've always enjoyed your threads and your perspectives on related topics. I'd just like a little more to go on here than just a quick thread kill.

I think that you'll find the the words of FDR inspiring. I just listened to his speech.

“Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”: FDR’s First Inaugural Address
historymatters.gmu.edu...

It is indeed a wonderful speech.

I clicked on your link and my computer crashed as the speech was loading.



[edit on 6-4-2007 by GENERAL EYES]

GE:

Which brings me to my point about MKULTRA - could such a program be utilized to make the weaker members of our society systematically self destruct?

Combine poor diet and a bad living environment, substandard television programmes and constant reinforcement of illness, death and futility...add poor quality street drugs....and I see a large increase in suicide rates, criminal cases and genocide within certain members of the populace.

Who would this affect? Not just the "lower classes" - but those people who were already hardwired for self destruction. The strong, regardless of social or economic position, will fight through the process - while those who have already accepted failure will slowly disappear from the culture.

No need to label anyone by race, creed, or ethinicity - it doesn't matter.

Here is what I have to say on this, from the perspective of a historian..

The thing you see before you, the problems within society is essentially, things have been good for us. We have our fancy cars, new clothes, huge houses, flat screen plasma HD TV's. We have no reason to complain right?

Or.. is it.. we do not have TIME to complain?

The Middle class came about with the French revolution, the middle class lead that war and started the new government because there was economic issues, political scandal, wars.. they lost their status and took it back...

However,

America is different, our middle class emerged and took up the BULK of our population. while 1% of the people hold 10% of the wealth, the rest is divided among the millions in the middle class.. any one making over 40k a year is middle class..

Middle class comes with BILLS.. bills, like credit card debt, mortgages, car payments, every day expenses, gas, children, school, college, retirement, health care, utilities, and of course luxuries..

A middle class man cannot leave the office to demand change, most are ignorant in national affairs, they watch CNN maybe 20 mins a day, here what the guy has to say and go along with that opinion...

Now, is that "control"? .. I don't think so. I don't think it was intentionally set up that way anyways. It is certainly the reason that our government can now rape our constitution, but they simply exploit a trend that was already being established.. Why do we care about the economy so much as far as general household income? Debt? Unemployment? Becuase people that are not busy, are dangerouse people.. now only the rich have the time and money and nothing better to do then play politics, in their own self important way, they influence the government, run for office and become our leaders, thought hey care only for them selves, though they are rich and don't need the job.. imo, they are there for self important reasons to better their own lively hood..

There is not a great leader among us today. There has not been since WW2.

Our government is not as organized and centralized as one might think, right now I see our government as being the weakest in over a century..

Nations with an ignorant populace WILL FALL... degeneration WILL bring an nation to its knees..

The USSR knew this, the built university cities... it ended up breeding radical ideas and where stopped.. but they knew their people had to be smart..

The United States had (has perhaps, though pathetically disgraceful) a strict guide line of lessons kids had to learn in school.. our focus was Math and Science, lastly was History and Language development (including English) This was done to make our people smart, but bureaucracy will destroy education, as it has, as it did in the USSR, it has here.. we are sinking in the world stage, our schools are a disgrace.

I am probably rambling, trying to collect my thoughts together to make the general point...

Our nation Cannot implement "mind control" for one general reason, it would be self destruction...

The problem you see, the middle class, the time restraining pressures, THAT I believe is SOCIAL DECLINE which, imo, has been carrying on its cycle since the Industrial Revolution..

People care only for them selves, there is no sense of community.. when you make a decision it is not "how will this effect my neighbors?" no its all about YOURSELF...

This is apparent in so many ways.. from the guy in the middle of a library shouting into his Nextel (god I hate those things..) .. to the person that lets there dog crap in someone lawn then walk away.. to the people who splurge their 401k's on a new fancy car, then to have their own children, flesh and blood, lock them up in a run down old folks home because they don't want the burden. To the people who murder indiscriminately, to the lazy society in which we became, to the way we mutilate the environment to build a new super wal mart because you don't want to drive the extra 5 miles to go to the other super Wal-Mart.. to fact that kids are killing kids in school, kids raping kids in school.. to violence, drugs, alcoholism that plagues youth.. to the fact that you can't let your own child ride their bike around the block anymore with out the risk of them being snatched up by some pervert..

Ask any one older person, they will tell you the worlds an F'd up place compared to when they grew up.. and their parents would tell you that the world got messed up in their day, and their parents the same..

Humanity is on a constant decline.. usually it is set in place and kept in check through wars, famine, plagues.. however we have, at least, tried, defeated them..

We can no fly food to support 5 million in a land that can only hold 5 thousand..

We do not fight wars like we used to.. so populations go unchecked..

We have vaccines and instant quarantines, so the population is not culled..

The weak, the demented, the lame and the generally ignorant people of our race mate and multiply at levels far surpassing the more successful people of our race..

So, combine an unchecked population = significant strain on the government = useless education system = decline of moral values = decline of spiritual connection and care for others = destruction of the environment

What do you get? A recipe for disaster.. which at this point imo is needed..

I do not think any single government caused this.. I do not think any single government COULD cause this..

I believe this is a track humanity has been on, and will be on, for a very long time, you see things getting worse because they ARE getting worse, they will continue.. corporations aid it, but they are held up by the people, the government aids it because they look after them selves, because when they grew up it is what they are conditioned to do.. it is our society, our way of life.. and we do this our selves, self destruction because we have no traditions to hold on to, no guidelines to respect, we are essentially a blind, ignorant and unchecked population.

I hope my points came across clearly, being such a large subject to cover.

EDITED to add content
[edit on 4/6/2007 by Rockpuck]

[edit on 4/6/2007 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
We have no reason to complain right?

Or.. is it.. we do not have TIME to complain?

Everyone is living beyond their means. There is the fear of losing it all if they stop working to spend time with the family. Both parents work. Prices go up to keep in synch with the demand for higher wages and better benifits. Jobs move overseas to keep in synch with the demand for higher wages and better benefits. Companies cut wages and benifits to keep up with the demand for higher wages and better benifits. WTF?

It's the runaway hamster wheel syndrome.

Work more - might lose security - work harder - might lose security - work harder - might lose security, etc ...

[edit on 6-4-2007 by In nothing we trust]

So many possibilities. Debunk the list as you like, I don't care.
1) Autism/ADD/ADHD- rates are skyrocketing in American children and just about all of them are popping pills!
2) Alien Abductions- really personnel continuing studies beyond the lab/hospital. How much less traumatizing would it be to pull people from their homes in the middle of the night, have them torture/kill someone, erase the horrific experience and send them home again? How many of us are having problems sleeping &/or feeling well-rested? What about the marks people find of unknown origin on themselves (when did I do THAT to myself?) or instances of suddenly being in strange places improperly dressed? They can't all be sexual abuse!
3) Chronic Pain- too many instances where causes for it are unknown (exclude drug addicts, of course; previously healthy people only!). Seems like it would set people up quite nicely for the break-down process that makes people suggestible. I suppose the same could be said for any similar chronic disease which is equally disabling & difficult to treat
4) Tool Engineered for Use on Scientific Community- Perfect vehicle for debunking things you would rather keep hidden. Most of our scientists are now foreign imports so it would be a useful way to cut down on spying while studying cross-cultural reactions to techniques. Those who cannot play by the rules get booted from their careers and academic programs. Current admissions standards for graduate school would have given the boot to Einstein & Hawking and the number of successful dropouts who go on to highly creative endeavors is staggering. There is one so-called myth I have been trying to debunk on my own and cannot. That doesn't stop others on this site from trying by making statements which are simply not true based on my own observations (NOT INTERNET SOURCES!!!)
5) Send Subliminal Messages via Popular Mass Media- For instance, "Our drug-laced product is a must-have for everyone!" becomes something completely different to our senses like an episode of "American Idol". I know I feel violated somehow every time I am subjected to replays over and over across all the networks! Why is that stupid show so popular? Perhaps the purpose behind that tactic is useful for funding causes we do not support through our taxes; keeping us agreeable enough to pay the tab but not rebellious enough to do anything about it. If we all agreed then it might look strange to other countries and make our president look more like a dictator and less like an elected official (Hey! Who voted for him anyway?).
6) Aliens are here but mass hypnosis prevents us from seeing them as anything but regular people on the street.
7) Atlantis exists but again, mass hypnosis prevents us from seeing it from the air. Removing it from maps works well enough for most people.
Okay, I think I'm getting carried away so I'll just leave it there. Have fun, guys!

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

It's all been said before General.

I'd love the links to your sources.

If you could take the time to post them (for the sake of others who might come across this subject and not be as advanced on the topic) that would be wonderful.

Of course General,

Sun Tzu said - The art of war is of vital importance to the State.

- It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

- Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. Spies are a most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability to move.

www.chinapage.com...

To win without fighting - This is the purpose of the MK Ultra program as designed by our german CIA friends.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by In nothing we trust]

Well, I've been noticing the incessant repitition of certain images and themes in modern media.

For those of us who are older, we have (or course) our own generational memories - themes that united us as a teenage and twenty somehting collective.

In my case, it was the whole "alternative movement" of the 1990's - the grunge music, the emphasis on environmental awareness, cultural tolerance, the music and themes therein.

As the decade passed and the "new trends" came into play, the gross materialism of the 80's returned en force and in mass, this time - upgraded into almost nauseating proportions with the whole "bling" and psuedosexuality of scantily clothed women.

Of course, no one will deny the awesome power of influence mass media has on the majority of the young, nor the need for social accepetance.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's considered cool to discredit the older generations, and demean anything that doesn't have immediate cultural reference with the youth.

Even the majority of adults prominately featured on television reinforce these memes and values espoused to the younger generations, perhaps it's benign, perhaps not.

I just don't understand why laying a good foundation and reinforcing positive social and cultural traditions is so passe - is it really all about creating entire generations of consumers with no sense of discernment?

I've seen very few members of the younger generations who are actively working towards positive ends being given any sort of public commendations for their hard won efforts, yet we glorify the shallow materialistic simpleton to no end.

Not saying everyone out there is buying into it, but a large percentage are.

Some people never grow out of it - so, are these tools of influence to seperate the strong minded from the weak and lay the foundations for the latter to be exploited the rest of their lives?

Just a thought..

I am currently not in the frame of mind to address this thread as I would like to. So I am posting to put this in my subscriptions and will likely get to it this weekend.

Rockpuck...who knew! Well done and I look forward to perhaps restarting this conversation.

My one thought, and I may have gleaned over it if it was presented already, is population mind control need only be in the form of irrelevant information propagation.

Remember this?

"If they can get you to ask te wrong questions, they need not worry about the answers."

MK_ULTRA never went away...they refined the hell out of that program....

Originally posted by MemoryShock
"If they can get you to ask te wrong questions, they need not worry about the answers."
MK_ULTRA never went away...they refined the hell out of that program....

Amen to that!

I'd like to apologise if my previous posts have come off as disjointed, or somewhat grasping...I was going through a bit of overload in my life several months ago in regards to this subject. I have never had the most "organized mind", although I'm working on a more linear approach to discussing these matters.

To be brutally honest, even though I have restored a sense of calm in my day to day, this subject is so personal that - even now, as I write this - I can feel my pulse rate quicken a bit.

Thanks for your patience with me on this issue.

And MemoryShock - I'm looking forward to your contributions!

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES
To be brutally honest, even though I have restored a sense of calm in my day to day, this subject is so personal that - even now, as I write this - I can feel my pulse rate quicken a bit.

Thanks for your patience with me on this issue.

And MemoryShock - I'm looking forward to your contributions!

There have been posts and a particular thread where not only did my pulse quicken, but I seriously considered not hitting the 'Post Reply' button.

I think you and I have much we can discuss on this subject. At your leisure, of course, I am always on this site. And please read the thread link I sent you and get back to me.

I am looking forward to your contributions, GE...

It's been a while since this one fell out of form.

Just thought I'd kick in a little revival to see if anyone out there has some new thoughts and opinions on this topic.