Whatever Happened to the 2 Superpowers? A Polemic

Originally posted by donwhite
Welcome! Good points. Good questions. Last first. It is true the US has farmed out - outsourced - many of its critical component manufacturing requirements. Look at the argument over autos. The sticker law required the “country of origin” to be shown. The auto makers got that changed to “country of final assembly.” Almost every part in a modern car is made “abroad” regardless what brand you speak about or what country it originally came from. England’s Land Rover was bought by Germany’s BMW, completely redesigned, then sold to America’s Ford, and is now made in Canada for sale in the US of A with many parts made in China, Mexico and Brazil. I submit “country of origin” or “country of final assembly” is no longer relevant information. 25 years ago, Thomson, a French company, bought the name only of RCA and GE and assembles tvs in Mexico from parts made in the Orient that bear those famous brand names when sold in the US. 20 years ago, we learned Toshiba (Japan) sold its technology to grind “silent” submarine propellers to the Soviets. Toshiba was the supplier for US nuclear powered sub propellers.

It definitely is clear we are past the age of industrial warfare and any attempt to continue to fight wars exhibiting any part of this era will undoubtedly result in disaster for the country at hand. Even after World War II, the only country truly capable of large-scale industrial warfare was the colossal Soviet Union. Hopefully, our leaders see that we have been in new times for a while and that we need to start living like its 2007.

Projection. It’s called “projection” as in the case of the 2 carrier battle groups just now in the Persian Gulf off the Iranian coast. On January 10, 2007, Bush43 threatened to “kill” any Iranian in Iraq who threatened the life of a US soldier or marine. Now that has always been our policy, and is any nation’s policy, but it is not considered good diplomatic technique for the Maximum Leader to voice that policy. That would be more appropriate for Sec Def Gates or the Army Chief of Staff. Expendable if necessary. The Prez is supposed to remain aloof from the dirt and grim of the real world, as in staying deniable. But what the hey, he’s from Texas! Shoot first, ask questions later. If at all. Shock and awe. He’s the decider!

Projection is in many cases all we've got now. With the U.S. being an even bigger target for terrorist attack these days, projection is all that's keeping the enemy form sneaking by, but it also makes us even more vulnerable, because terrorism is that 4th dimensional threat.

Asymmetric warfare. David and Goliath. Jack and the Beanstalk. From the first day after the Nine Eleven Event, I asked “Why” and “why now?” ti seemed obvious to me that the State of Israel is either #1 or #2. Long-time US support for autocrats in the Middle East is next. Lack of attention of the abject poverty endemic in the Middle East which sits atop 70% of the world’s proven oil reserves is last.

Most Americans don't realize this, but from 1815 - 1991, that whole span of 176 years was very much an anomaly and an exception in military history, or human history as a whole. Many of us are so troubled by what we see in Iraq, but much of human history is made up of Iraqs. There are very few wars that reach the scale that defines our popular perception of what war is (the two world wars, the Gulf War). Therefore, our return to pre-modern and asymmetric warfare is us snapping out of the dream, so to speak, and returning to the true reality of the world.

It must be more apparent to any thoughtful person we - the US primarily - cannot afford to address those issues with super carriers. Our policy is bankrupt. And if we - the US - follow it much further, the US will be, bankrupt too. The other side spends a few million, and we must spend many billions. It’s called whipsawing. It is public record we have spent $367 b. in Iraq since March 18, 2003. In a war that we told would “pay for itself.” there is a bill in Congress to allot $87 b. more. That’s for this year, not next years, which is estimated to cost $130 b. by the end of 2008, if this holds, we will have spent $584 b. And will end doing a Saigon Embassy stunt out of Baghdad.

I think it can be said now for sure, that we have really spent all this money on things that simply don't exist. The F-22? Do our leaders truly believe al Qaeda will field an advanced air force by the next decade?

Crime in America is bad. Public education is strapped for funds. Health care is non-existent for 10s of millions of Americans and other cannot afford what they have. Streets, roads, sewers, and other infrastructure needs updating or replacing. The St. Johns River in Florida where I live is about to DIE. 80% of the pollutants are agricultural runoff. Florida’s biggest money crops, oranges and lemons, are killing the river. So what doe we do, shut down the orange groves? We need money at home but our Maximum Leader has chosen to spend it in Iraq and Afghan. Along with 3,400 dead GIs and 10,000 who have been maimed for life. Thanks, Mr Bush, but No Thanks.

That's part of that state-of-the-art military history my professor was referring to. On the subject of the environment, the San Francisco Bay Area is overdue for a catastrophic earthquake. All it takes is one quake and the U.S. national security policy and strategy will turn upside down. We saw what Hurricane Katrina did. Everything is connected. From the top songs on the Billboard's Top 40 to the International Space Station, everything affects and is affected by the military and war.

[edit on 27-3-2007 by sweatmonicaIdo]

posted by sweatmonicaIdo

posted by donwhite It is true the US has outsourced many critical manufacturing requirements. 20 years ago Toshiba sold its technology to grind “silent” submarine propellers to the Soviets. Toshiba supplied US nuclear powered submarine propellers.

It is clear we are past the age of industrial warfare and any attempt to continue to fight wars exhibiting any part of this era will undoubtedly result in disaster for the country at hand. Even after World War II, the only country truly capable of large-scale industrial warfare was the colossal Soviet Union. Hopefully, our leaders see that we have been in new times for a while and that we need to start living like its 2007.

DW: Projection as in the 2 carrier battle groups now in the Persian Gulf off the Iranian coast. On January 10, 2007, Bush43 threatened . .

Projection is all we've got now. With the U.S. being an even bigger target for terrorist attack, projection is all that's keeping the enemy form sneaking by, but it also makes us even more vulnerable, because terrorism is that 4th dimensional threat.

DW: Asymmetric warfare . . after the Nine Eleven Event, I asked “Why” and . . Lack of [the West’s] attention of the abject poverty endemic in the Middle East which sits atop 70% of the world’s proven oil reserves . .

Most Americans don't realize this, but from 1815 - 1991 was very much an anomaly in military history or history as a whole. Many of us are troubled by what we see in Iraq, but much of human history is made up of [many] Iraqs . . very few wars reach the scale that defines our popular perception of what war is (the two world wars . . ). Therefore, our return to pre-modern and asymmetric warfare is us snapping out of our dream and returning to the real world. I think it can be said that we have spent all this money [to fight] things that simply don't exist. The F-22? Do our leaders truly believe al Qaeda will field an advanced air force by the next decade? On the environment, the SF Bay Area is overdue for a catastrophic earthquake. All it takes is one [8.0] quake and the U.S. national security policy and strategy will turn upside down. We saw that with Hurricane Katrina. Everything is connected. From the top songs on the Billboard's Top 40 to the International Space Station, everything affects and is affected by the military and war. [Edited by Don W]

To this years $455 b. Defense budget, add the $87 b. Afghan Iraq supplement for this year that’s now in Congress, add my estimate of $200 b. for the DoD’s part of the National Debt, and this year’s $34 b. for the VA - short by 50% of what is needed - to reach the staggering total of $776 b. for this fiscal year! This is over 60% of the so-called discretionary budget. This was the Reagan goal and strategy. Bush43 is “closing out” the Reagan era. It get’s worse next year.

You have voted sweatmonicaIdo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

and i voted for donwhite also.

anyhow it is absolutely true, war was never defined by ethics, conciounse(sry for bad spelling), or any other humane or noble reason, War is defined and made solely for and by material and economic gain.

examples

1. The U.S. went to Cuba in 1896, i think, because it wanted to establish it's power in teh carribean and central and south america, and of course a war with a "paper tiger" if a may say, ie. spain, could never hurt, am i right?

2. The US went to WWI because the germans were threatening trade with europe and the world, and of course because hte US nor the european powers wanted a new empire on the block.

3. The US went to WWII again because Germany was emerging to be too powerfull and not serving he best economical or political interests. Also the US was always fond of wars that can increase it's military and political and economical power in the world.

4. The U.S. went to Korea because it was tryin gto check the expansion of Communism, which was of course purely political.

5. The U.S. went to Vietnam because of the belief in the Domino Theory, and of course the US could not stand to see the European powers lose there colonies, eh?
actually the U.S. persued a policy of decolonizing the World since the turn of hte century, initially only in the americas, and then it spread it to the rest of the world, as it saw the european overseas claims and colonies as a threat to it's own predominance of europe and major portions of the world.

6. The U.S. went to the 1st Guld War because there was no way it could let one country sit on so much oil. if Iraq united with Kuwait, they would sit on i don't know how much maybe 35-50% of the world oil supplies? purely economical reasoning, as it wouldn't be sound and economically viable for the big oil companies to allow one country to rule over vast ammounts of "black gold"

7. The U.S. into the 2nd Gulf War because Iraq is in a strategic location as a door to the ME, if the U.S. is preparing for war with china or Russia, then it had to situate itself in a way that it could protect it's Oil suppliers.

8. The U.S. went into Afghanistan because of it's strategic location close by to China and Russia, not for teh so called fight on terrorism as is i hope already well known on this board. which brings to light the ocnspiracy of 9/11, now what are the chances that 3 planes could be hijacked so easily and ran into buildings, and having the buildings fall without any glitches whatsoever?

9. The Civil war was fought because the Union had a rebellion on it's hands that it had to deal with. basically it's like the Russians fighting in Chechnya right now.

10. even the revolutionary war was faught over the high taxes demanded by britain.

11. WWII from the british and french point of view was fought because they saw germany growing too powerfull and had to be put in check. they failed in there mission until 1944.

all these wars are U.S. related because i can't think of any other power that sugar-coated there actions so much everytime. the USSR always went into it's wars witha straight reason, it neer sugar-coated it. the USSR went into afghanistan with the straight reason of helping the communist regime, it went to or aided NK and Vietnam because it was spreading communism, it never sugar-coated it saying that it was spreading "freedom and democracy" while it was actually destroyng all the hopes and dreams of the poeple of these countries it is supposedely spreading "freedom and democracy" to.

heck if what's happening in Iraq the "freedom and democracy" it is spreading, i don't want it!