Challenge: Show me an organ, joint, or anything that is irreducibly complex

I'm going with Tom Bedlam here. I was going to post nearly the same thing.

Originally posted by Terapin
Why pick such a simple cell. Surely there are more complex cells that people would wish to utilize for such a complex argument as IC.

The evolution of the cell is quite fascinating and in my view the mitochondria is where the coolness begins. Hemoglobin is just too simple a chemical, and the shape of the red blood cell is remarkably understandable.

I am not a biology major. Could you explain this?

Thanks.

Howdy all,

I'll add to the IC list: Topoisomerase enzyme[s]

Animation: www.youtube.com...

You need the parts to make the machine, you need the machine to make the parts... fyi, UncommonDescent has a Molecular Animations section you guys might like.

Originally posted by melatonin
So IC is really 'design of the gaps'. I know Rren won't like this, heh.

Dearest melatonin,

You are a Brit. I assume that means you speak with a British accent. As I read your posts the melatonin's-voice-in-my-head also uses the aforementioned British accent. Therefore everything you write puts a smile on my face. Had you been an Australian, Scot or Irishmen... I may have, very likey, already converted to atheism.

Your words are weak and feeble like an old woman's. However due to the accent I find your simple arguments a bright spot in my day.


Too over the top?


Regards all ('cept that bloke, mel),
-Rob

Originally posted by Rren
Dearest melatonin,

You are a Brit. I assume that means you speak with a British accent. As I read your posts the melatonin's-voice-in-my-head also uses the aforementioned British accent. Therefore everything you write puts a smile on my face. Had you been an Australian, Scot or Irishmen... I may have, very likey, already converted to atheism.

Your words are weak and feeble like an old woman's. However due to the accent I find your simple arguments a bright spot in my day.


Too over the top?


Regards all ('cept that bloke, mel),
-Rob

Haha, I like.

Of course I have a brit accent, but think more like one of 'The Beatles' rather than some southern pansy, heh.

Bit like this:

Well, I'm still not sure if you debunked the tail yet, but what about DNA? I heard that it was too complex to have evolved from simple cells, but I've also heard that DNA may have evolved from RNA.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Well, I'm still not sure if you debunked the tail yet, but what about DNA? I heard that it was too complex to have evolved from simple cells, but I've also heard that DNA may have evolved from RNA.

There is DNA in prokaryotes. The theory (which is nothing more than that) is that a protein of some sort gained the ability to replicate itself, and as it became more protected and able to do this more efficiently, it spread.

DNA is shaped like a helix, which looks like a twisted ladder. The rungs of the ladder are made by combinations of A,C,T, and G. The complexity of getting every single rung in the right order is impossible because there are millions of rungs. Wouldn't this count as Irreducible Complexity, since you need DNA to make DNA, and you can't have DNA without a strand of DNA to start it.

I believe the RNA world hypothesis is the currently favored theory on the origins of DNA.

See the difficulties and alternatives sections of the link also.

Regards

(edit)Accidently linked to Jesus' Sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) instead of the wiki article on the RNA world hypothesis. lol, don't ask.

[edit on 12-4-2007 by Rren]

Very cool site!


multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu...



So far I've watched:

Inner Life (slowspeed version) animation (This one's a virtual tour through the cell)


and...


The first f1f0 ATPase animation

Online Dictionary of Cell and Molecular Biology

F-type ATPase (= F1F0 ATPase; ATP synthase; F-ATPase)
Multi-subunit proton-transporting ATPase, related to the V-type ATPase Found in the inner membrane of mitochondria and chloroplasts, and in bacterial plasma membranes. Normally driven in reverse by chemiosmosis to make ATP, and so also known as ATP synthase.

Go ahead and throw the ATP synthase molecule on the IC list too, madnessinmysoul (reminder: IC is not an argument that some 'thing' could not have evolved at all (just that it couldn't do it in a blind and random step-wise [Darwinian] fashion )



Both were excellent


The 'appearance' of design - in this 'accidental' beauty, we call life - is quite striking, is it not.

Regards

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
DNA is shaped like a helix, which looks like a twisted ladder. The rungs of the ladder are made by combinations of A,C,T, and G. The complexity of getting every single rung in the right order is impossible because there are millions of rungs. Wouldn't this count as Irreducible Complexity, since you need DNA to make DNA, and you can't have DNA without a strand of DNA to start it.

Well, in simpler organisms it's a single strand, like half of the ladder. It usually forms a circle, as opposed to our linear DNA.

Every single "rung" doesn't have to be in the "right" order because there is no such thing. The order determines your genetic code.