Greatest Military Aircraft! What Do You think?

Originally posted by waynos
One of the mopre bizarre projects I have seen was the 'economy Tomcat', swing wing version for the UK. As much as I love the F-4, I'm glad we bought the Tornado F.3 that time

Yes, the thing that was interesting about the RF-4X was they were going to put big tanks on the side of the F-4 with water and give it water injection to make it supposidly do Mach3 plus.

"Israel was clearly very interested in the F-4X, as it promised a performance which would approach that of the USAF's SR-71."

Pics of planned RF-4X

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[edit on 5-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

The F-4 certainly isn't the greatest military aircraft.

A bit of history, this craft was first used in the Vietnam war. It had an amazing missile weapons system but these were not allowed to be used unless the pilots had a visual on the target to make sure it was a bogey! Apparently there were a few friendly fire cases which caused the rules of engagement to be changed.

So the F-4 was now put up against the Mighty Mig in dog fights. The vietnamese were absolutely owning the American pilots in these dog fights.

It was around this time that a "top gun" type school was opened and pilots were taught tatics of dog fighting. In a few years time because of this training the pilots who were flying there inferior f-4's were able to tatically out manouvere the Migs.

I guess i'd have to vote for the Migs.

One of the mopre bizarre projects I have seen was the 'economy Tomcat', swing wing version for the UK. As much as I love the F-4, I'm glad we bought the Tornado F.3 that time

Damm, you keep finding these little gems that I dont even know about or recall. Nice find waynos, I agree that the Tornado was a safer bet for the RAF. Something about sticking moveable wings on an aircraft that wasn't originally designed for them that screams... FRANKENSTEIN!! Actually looks like they nicked some of the forebody/wing root fairing design from the boys at Grumman when looked at from the top view. Will add this one to the mental database.

LEE.

lazer1 your summary doesnt make sense. Put aside the argument for or against the F-4 for a moment.

First you acknowledge that the F-4 was handicapped because of Rules Of Engagement (ROI) from using its missile system. This was not a failing of the F-4 or a superiority of the MIG-21 but doctorinal error.

You then go on to say this, which actually debases your argument,

a "top gun" type school was opened and pilots were taught tatics of dog fighting. In a few years time because of this training the pilots who were flying there inferior f-4's were able to tatically out manouvere the Migs.

which proves again that it was not the fault of the aircraft but of a lack of aircrew training in the older style of aerial combat. Had the US been willing to use their radar guided A2A missiles and fitted the aircraft from day one with a cannon, this coupled with the aforementioned dogfight training would have seen huge numbers of Nth Vietnamese Fishbeds being shot down for the cheap and cheerfull interceptor that they were. And of course that IS exactly what happened eventually. This together with the Israeli experience with the F-4 against MIG 21's shows that the F-4 was a vastly more capable aircraft than its Soviet designed counterpart when employed properly. And that goes for any comparison of combat aircraft.

LEE.

Yeah I gotta blame the Vietnam F-4 mishaps primarily on the policies involved in not completely allowing the F4's capabilities to be used. And the newness to many pilots of the platform.
But IMO it owns most others for years of service(40 yrs),upgrades,variants,frontline service,etc...
But it is all subjective. When I was a young man I was at El Toro for a while in the early 80's and the F4's were always something to behold and their paint schemes over the years have covered the spectrum easily.
Hell I think just about every major western block nation has used them and quite distinctly.

Originally posted by lazer1
The F-4 certainly isn't the greatest military aircraft.

So the F-4 was now put up against the Mighty Mig in dog fights. The vietnamese were absolutely owning the American pilots in these dog fights.

I guess i'd have to vote for the Migs.

The only reason the F-4 couldnot hold its own against the MIGS was that the F-4 was usually taking on 4 or 5 MIGs at once.

Check out the stories of Randy Cunningham. He was in 1 of the longest jet dogfights on camera against a top ace, also on a mission and had 32 SAMs shot at him.

Hello all...

1. No Mig "owned" F-4's during the Vietnam Conflict. No way.
The Kill Ration was still something like 2-1?!? The "Wolfpacks" had some tough fights, but the F-4 was handling very well against those Migs.

2. I vote for the Viper as the Greatest Military Aircraft.
Originally designed as a pure Air-Air Combat Aircraft, the F-16 Fighting Falcon became a real formidable Multi-Purpose Plane, the Air-Air Kill Ratio is now what? something like 71:0 ?!?
The "Wild Weasel" SEAD Role was given to the Viper for it's performance in the "Hunter-Killer Teams" with the F-4. The "Harm Shooters" are a very important aspect in every operation for air supremacy and ground suppression.

I personally think the F-16 is the Greatest Military Aircraft ever.

Greetz

maddawg