757 Plane Did Not Hit Pentagon - Hard Visible Proof!

Originally posted by johnlearThese 2 airline pilot suicides are a very well guarded 'inside' secret.

Well, they aren't any longer.

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Why do you think that the pilot "whoever he was" executed the descending right hand turn?

So he would hit the one fortified wall, obviously, behind which were the accountants who prepared the $2.3 trillion missing funds figure that Rummy announced the day before.

An opinion is fair enough, but when you tell people they are wrong its different, especially when you use numbers and so forth.

I don't think I really told anyone they were wrong - I pointed to some facts (DFDR data) that illustrate the turn was conducted at relatively low speed and terminated 4 miles from the pentagon. The aircraft was 4 miles away from the Pentagon at 2,000 feet when it began a straight accelerating run. This is laid out in the DFDR data, and illustrated in the simulation on the Pilotsfor 911Truth's site.

This is very different from a precise descending turn which terminated at the Pentagon which is what many have suggested.

dbs you said that the pilot had 70 seconds or so to select his target, make the turn and be greeted by Allah. That's not much time at all. I guess I'd qualify as having as much piloting skills as the supposed hijacker, and for the life of me I can't believe anyone who knows me would believe I was capable of executing that maneuver--or even able to think of it.

I'd drop it down into the middle of the building.

Ill repeat, the Pentagon has the largest footprint of any building in the world.

Anyone flying that plane would know that, and would have been told to crash from above to maximize his chances of hitting the building and doing most damage on impact.

As JL has pointed out, this was a real pro flying it--or a real pro guiding it by remote control, more likely IMO.

[edit on 13-4-2007 by gottago]

Originally posted by gottago

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Why do you think that the pilot "whoever he was" executed the descending right hand turn?

So he would hit the one fortified wall, obviously, behind which were the accountants who prepared the $2.3 trillion missing funds figure that Rummy announced the day before.

He hit the same wall after the turn that he would have hit if he hadn't executed the turn.

dbs you said that the pilot had 70 seconds or so to select his target, make the turn and be greeted by Allah. That's not much time at all.

Thats not quite what I said. He had 70 seconds if he had flown straight to the Pentagon from the position where he began the right hand turn. 70 seconds to execute a 6200 fpm decent of 7,000 ft and acclerate to 463 knots and hit a target 50-60 ft tall. Making the turn allowed him to descend at 680 fpm and allowed him to line up for a fairly level and straight run from 4 miles out.

Ill repeat, the Pentagon has the largest footprint of any building in the world.

You might want to double check that statistic.

Anyone flying that plane would know that, and would have been told to crash from above to maximize his chances of hitting the building and doing most damage on impact.

Seems to me more damage would be done by passing through 3 rings from the outside and causing the collapse of the floors above than punching one hole through the roof and going straight down.

As JL has pointed out, this was a real pro flying it--or a real pro guiding it by remote control, more likely IMO.
[edit on 13-4-2007 by gottago]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Originally posted by Johnlear
Why did he pick the side of the Pentagon where nobody was?

Originally posted by gottago
So he would hit the one fortified wall, obviously, behind which were the accountants who prepared the $2.3 trillion missing funds figure that Rummy announced the day before.

Of course, you are both assuming that he hit what he was actually aiming at. That would, indeed, be some kind of a feat but who the heck ever said he was aiming at that particular wall? It's far more likely that he was aiming at the middle of the building and ended up hitting the very bottom of an outside wall instead. He was plain lucky to hit anything at all.

Just because you hit a double top on a darts board doesn't mean that's what you were trying to hit.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
[Because as I said several times in another thread, setting off a WTMD is NOT a criteria for not being allowed to board. Security screeners don't have access to any kind of no fly list, and they don't check a passengers identity, except to match it to the boarding pass.

Problem is some of the terrorist were flagged and still aloud to get on the plane.

And that's not the first OR last time it's happened. Even POST 9/11 people on the watch list have gotten on planes. How many times in the last few years have we heard about planes diverting because there was a passenger on the watch list, but they didn't catch it until after the plane departed.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And that's not the first OR last time it's happened. Even POST 9/11 people on the watch list have gotten on planes. How many times in the last few years have we heard about planes diverting because there was a passenger on the watch list, but they didn't catch it until after the plane departed.

That does not excuse what happened on 911.

And I wasn't trying to. Simply pointing out that you can't point at that as a smoking gun of 9/11, because it's happened before that, and it's happened SINCE then. Now if it's happening now, with all the tightened security we have in place, then think how much easier it was to happen THEN. All that proves is that the airlines screwed up and let them board the plane when they shouldn't have.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And I wasn't trying to. Simply pointing out that you can't point at that as a smoking gun of 9/11, because it's happened before that, and it's happened SINCE then. Now if it's happening now, with all the tightened security we have in place, then think how much easier it was to happen THEN. All that proves is that the airlines screwed up and let them board the plane when they shouldn't have.

Just too many things went perfect for them. Getting through airport security, surprising and taking over cockpits when pilots had warnings, and knowing how to aviod radar.

Also knowing how to set the altmeters for change in airports altitude, knowing how to set the autopilot.

No matter how one is to look at this, whomever did this, the attacks on 9/11, the evidence clearly is that they *KNEW* they would hit their targets.

Who would ever plot to take a plane into the Pentagon? Most thinking people would think right away that you would be shot down.

To even have had made the plan itself, the attack on the Pentagon, someone knew the Plane was going to get there, I think that much is evident.

The fact that amateurs supposedly planned it, and then had it happen suggests they weren't amateurs.

What good reason could there be for the hijackers to assume that the Pentagon would be undefended?

Here is something else that really disturbs me about the whole Pentagon attack, they already knew that the WTC had been struck by a two planes 30 and 45 minutes prior and that some other flights transponders had been shut off and were unaccounted for in the area of the Pentagon or Washington.

Don't you all think that the Mighty Pentagon our United State Defense Intelligence Center would be on alert?

Do they not have any defense systems at the Pentagon itself?

And why in the hell wouldn't they evacuate the Pentagon immediately if they are the heart, soul and brains of our national defense?

This is really basic stuff here, but needs to be looked at. We are talking 45 minutes between the first WTC impact and the Pentagon.

Realtruth

Exactly. You and I would think this way, as would the majority of people. That by that time, the Pentagon should have been on high alert.

Here is where it gets damning. It is my contention and view that this evidence in of itself is very strong, that whomever did this, planned this because they knew the Pentagon wouldn't be defended.

Normal thinking people would assume that the Pentagon would be heavily defended after seeing Both Towers attacked and informed of other hijackings.

There is actually no reason for a hijacker to assume that his plane would make it to the Pentagon, it just goes against rational common sense.

But...There are good reasons to assume your plane *WON'T* make it.

So again, whomever did this absolutely knew they would be allowed to.

[edit on 13-4-2007 by talisman]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Just too many things went perfect for them. Getting through airport security, surprising and taking over cockpits when pilots had warnings, and knowing how to aviod radar.

1. Getting through airport security: Don't carry large amounts of metal or big weapons. Gee, that's an easy one. The no fly list was easy to miss names on, it still is easy to miss names, and it still happens today.

2. Taking over cockpits when pilots had warnings: The pilots had requested confirmation of said warning when the takeover occurred. They were probably still looking at each other and going "What the hell are they talking about?" when it happened, and hadn't taken any steps yet.

3. Knowing how to avoid radar: Again an easy one, but probably happened more by luck than any skill on their part. It was only THIS plane that avoided radar. It's easy to find out that there are major holes in radar coverage in the United States, and to find out where radar sites are located. I found it in less than an hour.

Originally posted by talisman
The fact that amateurs supposedly planned it, and then had it happen suggests they weren't amateurs.

What good reason could there be for the hijackers to assume that the Pentagon would be undefended?

What reason would they have to think it WAS defended? I have YET to see anyone that claims they have missiles all around it show me anything having ANYTHING to do with a SAM battery near the Pentagon. No radar sites (oh, right, they're underground because the radar certainly won't be blocked by being there), no missile launchers, nothing. A shoulder fired missile won't do much against a target that large, at that speed. The range is so low that it would keep heading towards the target. The only thing I've ever seen about defenses at the Pentagon are "Oh, I took the tour and he said they were there." Or "I know someone who knows someone who took the tour, and they said they have missiles there."

Zaphod58

What reason would they have to think it WAS defended? I have YET to see anyone that claims they have missiles all around it show me anything having ANYTHING to do with a SAM battery near the Pentagon. No radar sites (oh, right, they're underground because the radar certainly won't be blocked by being there), no missile launchers, nothing. A shoulder fired missile won't do much against a target that large, at that speed. The range is so low that it would keep heading towards the target. The only thing I've ever seen about defenses at the Pentagon are "Oh, I took the tour and he said they were there." Or "I know someone who knows someone who took the tour, and they said they have missiles there."

Your not serious are you? Anyone would assume a Military complex would be defended. Its just an assumption most people would make.

Look at the following from from CNN regarding a meeting in July 2001.
Look carefully at what it says.

archives.cnn.com...

About 15,000 police are on duty as part of the $110 million security operation. Surface-to-air missiles, fighter jets and naval ships form part of the security operation, which is also responsible for defending the summit from attacks by terrorists.

Why do you have surface to air missiles for a HIJACKED PLANE??

I think it is ludicrous to argue that the Pentagon wouldn't have been so defended.

The above leads to other questions, such as why wasn't The South Tower evacuated, since in July they had surface to air missiles ready for "TERRORISTS".

So again, there is NO good reason for a hijacker to think his plane would make it, especially it being a passenger plane.

[edit on 13-4-2007 by talisman]

No visible defenses around the Pentagon. The Alert Force has been dropped significantly in numbers over the last 15 years, which means chances of an airborne interception drop. The nearest armed fighters were in Virginia or Cape Cod.

John,

How long does it take to scramble F-16's into the air? And isn't there an airport anywhere near DC?

I have been to Selfridge many times for construction. I would hope that wasn't the closest F-16 base around.

It really doesn't make much sense at all they had 45 minutes, does it take that long to get them in the air?

Originally posted by Realtruth
Here is something else that really disturbs me about the whole Pentagon attack, they already knew that the WTC had been struck by a two planes 30 and 45 minutes prior and that some other flights transponders had been shut off and were unaccounted for in the area of the Pentagon or Washington.

Don't you all think that the Mighty Pentagon our United State Defense Intelligence Center would be on alert?

Do they not have any defense systems at the Pentagon itself?

And why in the hell wouldn't they evacuate the Pentagon immediately if they are the heart, soul and brains of our national defense?

This is really basic stuff here, but needs to be looked at. We are talking 45 minutes between the first WTC impact and the Pentagon.

Zaphod58


See my above, why would there have been surface to air missiles for terrorists in JULY 2001??

That isn't a good reason at all, to assume they don't have guns because we can't see them? The could very well be hidden.

I don't think there is any logic in assuming the Pentagon would be undefended.

[edit on 13-4-2007 by talisman]

Originally posted by Zaphod58

2. Taking over cockpits when pilots had warnings: The pilots had requested confirmation of said warning when the takeover occurred. They were probably still looking at each other and going "What the hell are they talking about?" when it happened, and hadn't taken any steps yet.

Yeah, I can see it now:


Knock knock.

Who's there.

Hijackers.

Hijackers who?

No we are real hijackers we want in.

Ok just a sec. Don't hurt us though.

Open the door then.

OK, its open what do you want.

We want you to get out of the pilots chairs, both of you and go to the back of the airplane.

OK. But you won't hurt us of will you?

No, just get out.

Do you know how to fly?

Yes, I have 3 and a half hours of dual in a 172 and microsoft flilght simulator.

OK, well I will put it on autopilot just in case. There you go. Where do you want me to sit?

In the aft cabin and don't try anything funny

No sir.

Both pilots go back into the aft cabin and take their seat..

Hijacker shuts door. He reaches in his pocket and pull out sheet of paper which says, "Sites Not Covered By Radar In The U.S". He looks out window. "Hmmmm" he says to himself. "this may not be as easy as I thought".

It doesn't take long to scramble a fighter, however on 9/11 there were no ARMED fighters in the area. Many bases have fighters, but only 7 had armed fighters waiting to launch on that day. There were between 14 and 21 fighters defending the entire US. One of the NY bases said they could have fighters launched with just bullets in 30-45 minutes, heat seekers in 1 hour, and fully loaded in 1-2 hours.