"The Whole Silly Flood Story"

Originally posted by infolurker
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

There were many Arcs and those who were told to flee to the mountains and survived on mountaintops. The Bible speaks of one of many.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Which makes sense because building a boat (or using them to escape), or seeking shelter higher up makes perfect sense!! Of course that's what people did to survive floods

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Vicky32

The whole point is that the man you mention, who gunned down the abortion doctor, was not defending any Christian position.

Dream On.

The Christian Right promotes extremism - - - - when one of their own acts on it - - - - then want to deny he is one of their own?????????

Not a chance.

I couldn't care less what the American Christian right does. I am not a part of it, and people like you love to call it Christian, when from what I can see, a good half of the American Right is Jewish, agnostic or heaven knows!
Christians have a right to say who is or is not 'one of their own' and why. Christianity forbids killing. No ifs, buts or maybes. (Some Americans make exceptions for wars of conquest, and capital punishment, but they're wrong, which is why Catholics oppose capital punishment and ought to oppose war.
You don't get to say what counts as a Christian action, as you are manifestly not one.
V.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
[

You might wanna read up on that murder case

Roeder had considered themselves members of the Army of God

LINK

He even co-authored stuff for the Army of God manual condemning abortion!! So saying he wasn't defending a Christian position is WRONG.

I have read about it of course, and I continue to reiterate that the actual Christian position has nothing to say about abortion. It simply condemns killing.
I couldn't care less whether he was a member of some American hate group that calls itself Christian. I could form a group to rob peoples' houses and call it "the Christian Property Liberation Group', but that wouldn't make it Christian any more than if I called it the 'Marshmallow Army' it would actually be a sweet!
But I can't convince you of the truth if you won't listen, and there's ample evidence that you won't. You'd seriously rather die than ever admit to being wrong. I feel sorry for you.

reply to post by Vicky32


I just want to point out something.

Christians are specifically told that they must not kill

It is so strange how this slides by....they all stand against killing...but yet their whole faith and religion is based on just that....a 'killing/death'.

I guess Christians should be thankful for those that 'killed' Jesus...for someone had to do it according to the whole belief system.

You cant get any more ironic that that.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Vicky32

 

I just want to point out something.

Christians are specifically told that they must not kill

It is so strange how this slides by....they all stand against killing...but yet their whole faith and religion is based on just that....a 'killing/death'.

I guess Christians should be thankful for those that 'killed' Jesus...for someone had to do it according to the whole belief system.

You cant get any more ironic that that.

It's not ironic. You are missing the point. We Christians are supposed to be better than those who killed Christ. In my view, God didn't plan it, he simply knew it would happen, and as he usually does, turned bad into good...
V.

reply to post by Vicky32


Just like he knew that after the flood that was brought by him...that there would still be giants in the lands?

And just like he knew that Eve would eat the apple so then its not a error that we are here but it was Gods plan all along that we go through this 'fallen state'?

And just like he knew, that humans would not do as were told, so he knew that he would then have to make a blood covenant before it all ever even was offered to us...there for he knew he would make us kill animals for blood offerings and knew that there would have to be a killing for the final blood sacrifice for all of our sins that he knew would come about>?

Strange one he is. Sadly...he also knew that alot of humans use only their bodily senses to 'know' things and that many, since they could not touch, see, smell, or hear god...that they would have no faith in him...and so he knowing that they would all 'not be saved' by him.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

And just like he knew that Eve would eat the apple so then its not a error that we are here but it was Gods plan all along that we go through this 'fallen state'?

And just like he knew, that humans would not do as were told, so he knew that he would then have to make a blood covenant before it all ever even was offered to us...there for he knew he would make us kill animals for blood offerings and knew that there would have to be a killing for the final blood sacrifice for all of our sins that he knew would come about>?

Strange one he is. Sadly...he also knew that a lot of humans use only their bodily senses to 'know' things and that many, since they could not touch, see, smell, or hear god...that they would have no faith in him...and so he knowing that they would all 'not be saved' by him.

IMO, that God knows something doesn't mean that God planned it! (I know that tomorrow will be hot and sunny. I didn't plan it that way, in fact if I had a choice in the matter, I'd choose cool and cloudy - I am well fed up with this heat wave!)
I know I will not be going to work tomorrow. I would rather go, but no, I don't make the rules. Get my point yet?
V.

Christian Group Behind Attempt to Have Gays Murdered in Uganda

Latest Developments Jan 2011 Murders have Started!


An American, right wing, fundamentalist Christian group is behind the attempt by the government to impose the death penalty for homosexual acts in Uganda, East Africa. This, dear Premier friends, is what Christians are doing to homosexuals in Africa. Christian ministers have already been behind the murder of gay men and women in Jamaica, when are you going to speak out about this obscenity? What more do you need? Archbishop Sentamu has condemned them, Archbishop Tutu has condemned them...now it’s your turn.

A United States fundamentalist group is at the heart of Uganda's anti-gay law. Originally known as The Fellowship, an international organization founded in 1935, today it is known as 'The Family', described by Jeff Sharlet in his book The Family: Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, who investigates the political power of 'The Family', a secretive fundamentalist Christian association. 'The Family', under the reclusive leadership of Douglas Coe, is described by prominent evangelical Christians as one of the most, or the most, politically well-connected fundamentalist organizations in the United States.

Ugandan lawmaker and alleged member of the 'The Family', David Bahati sponsored Uganda's Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009, also known as the "Bahati Bill".
....
Sharlet detailed The Family's connections with Capitol Hill powers-that-be, including Nevada senator John Ensign ... and Kansas senator Sam Brownback. “Sen. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma boasts of traveling around the world, doing The Family's political business, he said. "[Oklahoma] Senator Tom Coburn has done the same thing. [Iowa] Senator Chuck Grassley has been very involved in African affairs on behalf of The Family. Sen. Mike Enzi of Wyoming is a part of it.”

Though gay sex is already criminalized in Uganda, the proposed legislation currently before parliament would add a specific clause called “aggravated homosexuality,” which would impose the death penalty on so-called repeat offenders as well as those who have HIV and engage in sex. Even failure to report a gay person to authorities could result in a lengthy prison sentence.

2010-11-25
For fundamentalist Christian group there is No Greater Joy than biblically beating kids into religious submission
CBS News Crimesider - March 1, 2010

Is Conservative Christian Group, No Greater Joy Ministries, Pushing Parents to Beat Kids to Death?


Paradise, Calif. (CBS/AP) Prosecutors say that earlier this month Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, Calif., beat their 7-year-old daughter to death with quarter-inch plastic tubing because she mispronounced a word. They say the girl's parents held her down and whipped her for hours causing massive tissue damage that resulted in her death.

"It was torture," says Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey. The girl's sister was also allegedly beaten with tubing. She survived.

On February 26, 2006, 4-year-old Sean Paddock died in Raleigh, N.C. He had been beaten with plastic tubing as a punishment. When that didn't work, his mother Lynn wrapped him in blankets so tightly that he suffocated. She was found guilty of murder.

These two families don't seem to have come up with their notions of discipline on their own. Both say they were inspired by a Christian group with nonprofit tax status, No Greater Joy Ministries.

No Greater Joy Ministries takes the Bible's notion that "He that spareth his rod hateth his son" as an edict for child-raising, or, as the ministry's website phrases it, "child training" via "biblical chastisement."

... Actor Slays Mom, a 9/11 Survivor, with Sword, in Jesus Rage

Yannick Brea, a 55-year old New Yorker who survived the 9/11 terror attack on the World Trade Center where she worked, was unable to survive her sword-wielding, Jesus-crazed son. She was slain early this morning by Michael Brea, known for his role on the popular TV show “Ugly Betty.” According to CBS News, Brea (the son) flew into a religious rage and attacked his mother with a samurai sword. He repeatedly commanded her to “repent” and screamed that she “never accepted Jesus.”

More at:


Of course, In Blue_Jay's eyes, the fact that these people killed means they are not true Christians, thus proving that TRUE Christians don't kill.

Obviously killing in an undeclared war does not count, or there would be no Christian troops fighting.

No True Scotsman

No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing.

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by iterationzero
You mean like the one in Oklahoma that walked into a church to gun down an abortion doctor who was attending Sunday services? Like that one?

And don't call people nitwits. It's not nice.

I apologise for calling people nitwits, as you say, it's not nice.
The whole point is that the man you mention, who gunned down the abortion doctor, was not defending any Christian position. He was acting out his own mental health issues! So, I am still correct.
There's nothing Christian about killing. (That's why the abortion doctor himself doesn't count - he was merrily killing babies and that's not Christian. Before someone screams 'no true Scotsman' at me, it's true.
Christians are specifically told that they must not kill. Therefore, a Christian who does so, is going against Christian rules.
He may call himself a Christian, just as I can call myself Princess Di. Just as my insisting I am the late Diana Spencer doesn't make me her, it doesn't make the actions of a Christian murderer, Christian actions.

Your original statement was:

Originally posted by Vicky32
Prove it. No, really, prove your assertion that any Christian fundamentalist, any time, has ever killed for his/her position. (I know Jewish ones have, and possibly Muslims as well, but no Christian fundamentalist has ever killed for their 'position'. So don't be a paranoid nitwit!

As you see, you were not specifying originally that the person's position be Christian, or that the person's actions be Christian, only that the person be a Christian fundamentalist and the killing be done to support their position.

Originally posted by Vicky32
Christians have a right to say who is or is not 'one of their own' and why.

Really? You have the right to speak for Christ and and exclude the bulk of Christian fundamentalists from Christianity, as you try to do here:

Originally posted by Vicky32
I couldn't care less what the American Christian right does. I am not a part of it, and people like you love to call it Christian, when from what I can see, a good half of the American Right is Jewish, agnostic or heaven knows!

Sorry, Blue_Jay, but these folk are Christian fundamentalists. You did not specify "Christians" in your initial assertion, so whether or not Christian fundamentalists count as pure Christians is irrelevant. There is a Christian fundamentalist movement and many of the Christian right belong to it.

It's only because you kept your claims to a narrow category, rather than all Christians, that the inquisitions, the crusades, and the horrendous extermination of the Cathars have not been brought up.

Originally posted by Vicky32
Christianity forbids killing.

I don't know where you get that idea from. It certainly didn't come from the bible.

Exodus 32:26-29
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing."

Matthew 10:34
""Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword""

Luke 22:36
"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

More examples of the biblical god or his priests and leaders ordering murders:

Originally posted by Vicky32
Of course they're not real Christians! And the roar of "No True Scotsman" arises already, and I counter, as I did to the previous man, that as Christians are forbidden to kill, period as you Americans say, then these groups are not true Christians. It's obvious really...

It's only obvious to someone that doesn't want to be associated with them. And you're only declaring them to be non-Christians in hindsight. If they lived 99% of their lives in a way that you would call them Christians and their very last act is, as defined by you, an inherently non-Christian one, they're still Christians. It's obvious really... at least to everyone but you.

Originally posted by Kailassa


As you see, you were not specifying originally that the person's position be Christian, or that the person's actions be Christian, only that the person be a Christian fundamentalist and the killing be done to support their position.

You're a lawyer right? Probably you specialise in harassing women who want non-molestation orders... Killing is not a Christian or a fundamentalist position. I know what a Christian position is, and you don't.

Originally posted by KailassaChristians have a right to say who is or is not 'one of their own' and why.

Really? You have the right to speak for Christ and and exclude the bulk of Christian fundamentalists from Christianity, as you try to do here:
I am not doing the excluding. The Bible and Christianity is. Unrepentant murderers are not Christian. Right wing paramilitary groups, whether white supremacist or not, are not Christian.

Originally posted by KailassaSorry, Blue_Jay, but these folk are Christian fundamentalists. You did not specify "Christians" in your initial assertion, so whether or not Christian fundamentalists count as pure Christians is irrelevant. There is a Christian fundamentalist movement and many of the Christian right belong to it.

You're following someone else's mistake, and accusing Blue Jay of saying what I said. It's irrelevant. You have been told often enough, but you don't want to know...


Christianity forbids killing.
I don't know where you get that idea from. It certainly didn't come from the bible.


Matthew 10:34
""Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword""

Luke 22:36
"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

More examples of the biblical god or his priests and leaders ordering murders:




Oh you really are a lawyer aren't you? The chutzpah is almost funny...
First, the OT historical books are irrelevant to this discussion. I saidChristians not Jews.
As for the 3 quotes - for the first, Matt 10.34 talks about how things are/will be, not about how they ideally should be, As I have said, foreknowledge doesn't = will.
Luke 22.36 is simply commonsense advice.
The 3rd. Luke 19.27 is wrenched wildly out of context, and comes from a parable, it's a story, it's fiction to illustrate a point that has nothing to do with your wildly out of context quote. I could use a wildly out of context quote to prove that JK Rowling favours child abuse... but I won't - it would as justified as what you did. I hope you did it out of woeful ignorance, otherwise, you''ve seriously twisted the truth and more naive minds might be seriously warped..

Originally posted by iterationzero

It's only obvious to someone that doesn't want to be associated with them. And you're only declaring them to be non-Christians in hindsight. If they lived 99% of their lives in a way that you would call them Christians and their very last act is, as defined by you, an inherently non-Christian one, they're still Christians. It's obvious really... at least to everyone but you.

You're trying to use a fundamentalist position against me, and I am not an American fundamentalist, therefore I am not affected by what you fondly imagine to be a decisive blow.
I am an Anglo-Catholic (look it up). To us, what people do matters as much as what they claim they are.

reply to post by Vicky32

You really need to work on your formatting Vicky.
You've got things frightfully messed up.


I note you began this post with a lame and irrelevant attempt at character assassination. Whether or not I'm, "a lawyer who specialises in harassing women who want non-molestation orders," is irrelevant to the facts being discussed here.

People with a sound argument to present don't resort to such mud-slinging.


You say unrepentant murderers are not Christian. What does that have to do with your assertion that Fundamentalist Christians don't commit murder? No-one here is saying these Fundamentalist Christian murderers don't repent afterwards.


My apologies for addressing you as Blue_Jay. The similarity in posting style can be confusing.


What makes you believe the Old testament is not relevant to Christians?
Do you not believe in the trinity? Did Jesus ever say to ignore the old testament, upon which his messiah-ship was based? The old Testament in not included in the Christian bible just for fun. We'd have no need for discussions with literalists who believe the biblical accounts of creation and the flood if that were the case.


The context of Luke 19:27:
(But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.)
is Jesus telling a parable, and then making this statement. The parable, about, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom," is about himself as the son of God. After he tells the parable, he says, explaining the parable to his disciples and giving them a command:
"For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

What we have is a good example of the fruit not falling far from the tree. According to bible mythology, God demanded the massacres of those who didn't worship him, and his son wanted the same.

reply to post by Vicky32


Yay, no true Scotsman fallacy!

reply to post by infolurker


And yet none of that left any physical evidence? And I've seen that before, yet I've never seen dates for those various myths. I'm taking a stab here, but I'm guessing they don't all originate from the same time period.

I'm asking for some simple evidence:

1: Evidence that such a boat as described could be sea worthy and meet the goal that it was intended for.
2: Geologic evidence of this global cataclysm
3: Evidence that this was actually feasible given the amount of water involved.
4: Evidence of the genetic bottlenecking that would have occurred during such an event.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Yay, no true Scotsman fallacy!

It's always either that or the god of the gaps it seems

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

And just like he knew that Eve would eat the apple so then its not a error that we are here but it was Gods plan all along that we go through this 'fallen state'?

And just like he knew, that humans would not do as were told, so he knew that he would then have to make a blood covenant before it all ever even was offered to us...there for he knew he would make us kill animals for blood offerings and knew that there would have to be a killing for the final blood sacrifice for all of our sins that he knew would come about>?

Strange one he is. Sadly...he also knew that a lot of humans use only their bodily senses to 'know' things and that many, since they could not touch, see, smell, or hear god...that they would have no faith in him...and so he knowing that they would all 'not be saved' by him.

IMO, that God knows something doesn't mean that God planned it! (I know that tomorrow will be hot and sunny. I didn't plan it that way, in fact if I had a choice in the matter, I'd choose cool and cloudy - I am well fed up with this heat wave!)
I know I will not be going to work tomorrow. I would rather go, but no, I don't make the rules. Get my point yet?
V.

The big difference here about you knowing it will be hot and sunny and God knowing it will be hot and sunny....is well....you are human and God is God (all mighty, all knowing, ect.). You dont have control over nature for your human and what you 'know' about tomorrows weather also has the ability to be changed via mother nature. There is a big difference then what a human knows and has control over and has the ability to plan then what God knows and has the ability to control over and can plan. So no...Im sorry, I dont see your point in such comparisons.

God could of 'made a way' for us however Thee chooses...and Thee's way was made (according to the christian faith that is and as well through the Judaic faith) through the demand of blood from a life (animal and then human). Blood sacrifice is a very dark practice and the only reason you dont see it as such is because you feel its ok as long as it was 'your god' that demanded it. Standing on the outside of such an idea and faith....its a dark practice that is very tied to Earthly things.

So be thankful...to those that killed Jesus...for it was Gods plan that you are saved...through the blood of another person. It was also this same God that repeatedly says to 'not kill' that ordered man to wipe out entire families, guilty and innocent. The whole Christian and Judaic faiths foundation stands on blood shed for salvation.

To think...God knows your heart and thoughts...and that your good will, honest heart, and humble mind....is not enough for Thee. Someone had to die....which involves someone doing the killing...which all had to be a part and knowing....of Gods plan.

Taking this all back to the topic of the flood...why do you think God (who I assume you believe brought a world flood) allowed the bad bloodline to remain on Earth being that they were still in the land in those days after the flood? Did Gods plan to wipe out the 'bad' not work? If God planned on leaving them on the Earth...then why bring the flood? To me....this whole story right here about a flood and then on down the line in the book we see that the bad bloodline was still in the land after the flood....shows that the flood was not 'gods work to wipe the earth clean'. What I see is during the times after that particular land having flood issues the people thought it had to be work of God and that they came up with their own reasoning of why such a huge catastrophe would of occurred which was to wipe the earth clean of bad seed. Only later we find out that surprisingly, more then those that were on the 'ark' survived the catastrophe and there was still later bad seed to be found on earth (because the flood was not world wide and was not brought to 'clean the earth').

IM sorry...for a almighty great holy one....I have to give more credit and the credit I give Thee is not about a life having to be shed or killed but that Thee would be against such a earthly practice that humans have practiced for ages and ages in every culture. The Spirit that I have grown with and learned through...seeks for honest hearts and humble minds. And Thee does not 'need' worship and Thee does not ever need everyone to even believe there is more to this world then what is beyond our senses. Thee knows that within the design of life itself, vibrates a deep core message and 'word' of harmony and for any true seeker....their soul will seek harmony with all life and try to live up to being a part of a harmonic design the best they can. And that harmonic design does not request or need anyone to be killed....for anothers wrongs. Even the great teacher, Jesus, said to pick up YOUR cross and follow him. Its a shame I feel that such a great humble man with spiritual wisdom to share with others...became tied to such a blood based faith.

So...when are we going to talk about that whole "flood'" thing that's the whole point of this thread? I mean, that is why I opened this thread, right?

Let me check the OP...

Yep, definitely about the global flood.

Without even considering the MANY other flood 'stories' predating the Noah 'story', doesnt anyone find it very SUSPECT that a SENOR-CITIZEN completely hand-built a HUGE SHIP by HIMSELF with primitive caveman tools if anything, and then loaded TONS and TONS of living creatures into it by himself?

Not to mention the aggravation, chaos, noise, and stink of the passengers aboard during such a lengthy amount of time which would be enough for any young healthy strong individual to want to hang themselves but yet this old decrepit senor citizen did all of this seemingly impossible feat with no problem!! YEA RIGHT!!!

What a bunch of nonsense...

reply to post by pplrnuts


Senior citizen? He was a few hundred years old, so that's actually a bit of an understatement. He might have had some help from his sons, but even they would have been over a hundred years old each at the end.

And then there's the issue of caring for the animals. How is a group of insanely old people who are living beyond any recorded age found in humanity going to take care of thousands and thousands of animals?