Deepcut Barracks deaths

Here's a refresher :-

BBC Link

People from the UK may remember the various deaths of young soldiers that had happened over time at the Princess Royal Barracks, Deepcut or commonly known as 'Deepcut Barracks' in Surrey, England. There has been four deaths in total dating from 1995 to 2002.

I found this article which sheds more light on the situation :-

Scotland on Sunday

In all the deaths the Army stated that they were all suicides even though the coroner had recorded an open verdict in at least two of the deaths. Plus there seems to be conflicting evidence; such as one instance involving a ballistic test which showed one soldier had been fired at from a distance numerous times and once at close range. Another where the soldier had two gunshot wounds to the head, yet the Army still said it was a suicide?! With the soldier just mentioned (Geoff Gray), his uniform along with his body had been incinerated. His log book of some sort had pages missing when it was returned to his family. Also there may have been important forensic evidence on the badge of his beret, which could have another person's blood and hence conclusively rule out suicide.

Watching 'Psychic Private Eyes' on the 'Zone Reality' channel came up with some interesting information. Even though I have an open mind concerning psychics and mediums I am not claiming what they said is proof. But going along with the assumption that what they 'received' was genuine and not made up then it is frightening what went on. Including stories of some secret odd ritual/rite being performed by certain members of the Army. A psychotic and seemingly deranged sergeant or senior officer (served in the Falklands) who was overly heavy handed, viewed 'fear' as an intolerable weakness and seemed to have a low opinion of women in the army, hence the alleged reported sexual abuse. In the programme they tried to uncover the mysterious death of Geoff Gray who received two bullet wounds. The psychics claimed that he stood up for a fellow female soldier who was being bullied and preyed upon. That he didn't like the way she was treated and tried to stand up to the 'oppressors', hence a possible motive for killing him.

Again I do stress that while I'm inclined to believe the psychics, I do not claim what they say is fact. Although with the numerous stories coming out about going ons at Deepcut plus the ceasing of strange deaths there (indicative of a reaction by the Army), it seems that it is very plausible what the psychics described. Not to mention that in this case it is much easier for the Army to cover up an incident and get away with things when in other instiutions/organisations this would not be the case.

Does anyone have an opinion on the matter?

Perhaps there are forum members who served in the Army and have had bad experiences at Deepcut? Maybe you know someone who did?

Any contribution is welcome.

Cheers

P.s Here's a link to a website ran by the parents of Geoff Gray who are still campaigning for what they believe is the unjust killing of their son.

www.justice4ptegeoffgray.co.uk...

In case someone can contact them with information.

[edit on 26/2/07 by Flyboy211]

i remember this there is more to this than meets the eye .
to many inconsistances

good post well done.

my cousin was there for a number of years (00-03).

he once told me that he spent 80% repremanding the nco's under his command for bully and being overly aggresive to new recruits.

so on that i'm inclined to belive that they are suicides.

but how a person can shoot themselves three times in the head with an sa80 brings me to belive that somthing else matbe going on.

Originally posted by antuk
good post well done.

my cousin was there for a number of years (00-03).

he once told me that he spent 80% repremanding the nco's under his command for bully and being overly aggresive to new recruits.

so on that i'm inclined to belive that they are suicides.

but how a person can shoot themselves three times in the head with an sa80 brings me to belive that somthing else matbe going on.

Cheers mate

Privates Cheryl James (June 1995) and James Collinson (March 2002) were both killed with a single bullet; the former through the forehead the latter through the chin. Which of course could be attributed to suicide. However this is an interesting segment concerning seemingly reliable ballistics expert Frank Swann (1*) regarding the death of Pvt. Cheryl James:-

Ballistics expert Frank Swann said it was "highly unlikely" Miss James shot herself

He believes she was probably trying to push the gun barrel away from her face when she was shot, accidentally or deliberately. (2*)

The same reference also says:-

Her parents Doreen and Des believe their daughter suffered sexual harassment and violence at Deepcut.

One of Cheryl's friends said the young recruit had been forced to have sex with a corporal there.

Of course because a 'friend' or anyone 'says' something doesn't mean it's true of course, but it may shed some light on a possible reason why Pvt. Cheryl James may have felt compelled to take her own life.

Here's some more information regarding the particular incident from a Lance Corporal Terri Lewis :-

She said: "There were many times she was crying on the block, talking to her friends. I was aware that a certain sergeant (not Sgt Gavaghan), who I know only too well, took an extremely strong liking to Cheryl and made her life hell."

"He made a sexual advance towards her. Obviously she did not respond to it...but it visibly and clearly shook the girl up. Not long after she took her life." (3*)

There's also :-

She was found dead just four months after Sean Benton, in November 1995. She had been left alone with an armed weapon - itself a breach of army regulations.

Onto the incident involving Pvt. Sean Benton (June 1995) who died from five bullets to the chest. I think it is important to note that he allegedly showed 'signs' of suicidal tendencies. Here's some interesting information :-

In 2002 a former friend of Mr Benton claimed vicious verbal attacks and humiliating abuse had caused the young man to take his own life.

Trevor Hunter said: "He was an easy target because he had a croaky voice, he spoke his mind and his kit was a mess."

He said Mr Benton suffered a campaign of victimisation because "his face didn't fit".

A BBC Panorama programme claimed that one night Mr Benton was attacked by a gang wearing gas masks as he slept.

On another occasion, it was said, he was thrown through a window after falling out of favour with a sergeant for answering back. (*2)

Some more :-

The bullying and beatings were rife - and Private Benton seemed to be singled out for special treatment. Colleagues in the camp remember seeing him battered and bruised.

Trevor Hunter added: "He was thrown out of a second floor window to land on the grass below. He never ever told me who it was but he did say that an NCO had done it."

One sergeant in particular seems to have had it in for Sean Benton. That man is Sergeant Andrew Gavaghan.

Lance Corporal Terri Lewis claims that Sean tried to report the incident, a serious assault, but she was told to "ignore it" by a sergeant as he probably "deserved it". (*3)

This probably explains why Pvt. Sean Benton committed suicide :-

She said: "He was the main...person behind the bullying, the mistreatment, that Sean received during his whole stay at Deepcut. I certainly 100 per cent believe that Sean was totally driven to committing suicide."

Here's also an interesting excerpt tying in with what you were saying antuk :-

She said: "The bullying at Deepcut was rife, the reason I say that is because straight away as soon as I was there it was evident that certain sergeants, certain corporals, were abusing their power."

Thanks antuk for your contribution. Is there anymore you can share with us? Perhaps there was a certain 'cabal' of officers that were responisble rather than a general culture there?

Btw here's a link to the Just4PteGeoffGray site that has the two witness statments. Which details a figure running away from the scene.

Also here's the link to Frank Swann's website that lists his credentials.

There's also four video links on the BBC Panorama (3) link page.

[edit on 28/2/07 by Flyboy211]

This thread on the ARRSE forum makes interesting reading.

90 pages, but worth a look.

Frank Swann doesnt come across as particularly convincing in it.

And before anyone says "You'd never get away with fooling a court", take a look at this news report.

26 years of court appearances based on dodgy qualifications

regards

beagle

pip pip !!

the AARSE (lol) thread is quite interesting,
now even though there has been four deaths at deepcut, there has been 23 at catterick the alleged suicide rate there is 8 times the national average...hmmmm.

Originally posted by antuk
the AARSE (lol) thread is quite interesting,

Yes, I followed it at the time it was posting and found it illuminating.

ARRSE, like any other forum, shouldn't be taken as gospel; but it does enable well informed discussions with contributions from people who know what they're talking about and call BS when they smell it.

Originally posted by antuk
now even though there has been four deaths at deepcut, there has been 23 at catterick the alleged suicide rate there is 8 times the national average...hmmmm.

I would suggest that comparison to a "national average" could be misleading. The age profile of military recruits is approx 18 to 26 Y.O. comparison to a similar age range would be more representative. Also for comparison, what about suicide rates after training ?

The other thing which I feel needs to be borne in mind is that the military is a "closed" male dominated culture. It's like a "club".

In ordinary society blokes don't, as a rule, talk about their feelings and problems to other blokes. This is even truer in the younger age groups.

Being a bloke with problems amongst other blokes can be a very isolating experience.

Do "closed" male dominated cultural groups have a higher suicide rate than the general population?

What about stress?

Could dealing with the stresses of the job in a "closed" male culture produce more problems than normal?

For example, marriage break up amongst police officers, alcoholism amongst doctors.

I'll stop now 'cos I'm just rambling on !

regards

beagle

pip pip !!