Apartheid in Iran?

First off Iran simply is not a threat to us, they are made out to be a threat to us and that is not the same thing. By all accounts they are a decade away from nuclear weapons. If I were the team Bush I would be far more worried about the fact that Pakistan DOES have nuclear weapons and they are just one coup away from fanatics controlling them.

Is Iran involved in Iraq? Of course they are. They would be fools not to want to affect the outcome of the unraveling of a neighbor. And it is not like we don't meddle in the affairs of other countries when we want to either. But , that really is not grounds for starting another war. Besides, if we do start a preemptive war, WE will be widely viewed (and accurately in my opinion) as the aggressor and will be seen by many as one more proof that are waging a war against Islam and will be one more feather in Bin Laden's hat; whether it is, or not.

As for Israel, their treatment of the west bank and Gaza is, I am certain what is being referred to when Israel is called an aparthied state... I know that is how I mean it.

Originally posted by Nygdan
If they are a threat, destroy them.

Am I the only person that finds your attitude disturbing?

I hope not.

Originally posted by grover
First off Iran simply is not a threat to us

I disagree. They are relatively weak, but they do give funding to international terrorist organizations. They are building nuclear weapons, and that on its own is enough of a threat. They also beleive that the United States if 'the great satan'. This is not mere rhetorical hyperbole. In shia islam, the devil is a very real force, and he work through human agents and agencies, he is allways in the world, opposing the people that represent God and the good. When they are saying that we are satan, they are serious. They aren't going to tolerate satan.

They have the motive. They have the ability. They have the means. And they are part of a global situation in which international terrorism was able to launch the 911 attacks on us (though I agree, Iran didn't 'do' 911 or anything like that).

If I were the team Bush I would be far more worried about the fact that Pakistan DOES have nuclear weapons and they are just one coup away from fanatics controlling them.

Indeed. If you are saying that Bush is a fraud, I agree. You can't say that there are '3 absolutely evil nations in the world' and not destroy them.

Is Iran involved in Iraq? Of course they are.

And that means helping kill american soldiers, and opposing american strategic interests in iraq, and the middle east in general.
IOW, they are a threat.
I don't beleive that the Iranian government is 'evil', I personally don't care if they are evil anyway. And I think that its disgusting that the american and iranian people can't get along, we'd both accomplish so much if we worked together.
But at the same time, its clear that the government of Iran stands in violent opposition to the US, and that means that they should be destroyed.

Besides, if we do start a preemptive war, WE will be widely viewed (and accurately in my opinion) as the aggressor and will be seen by many as one more proof that are waging a war against Islam and will be one more feather in Bin Laden's hat; whether it is, or not.

It doesn't matter at this point what we do, there is a big populations of jihadis that think we are evil and need to be attacked. Why should we permit iran to aid them in doing that???

As for Israel, their treatment of the west bank and Gaza is, I am certain what is being referred to when Israel is called an aparthied state
I could care less how the yehudis treat the people in the occupied territories, short of actual genocide. They are not israeli citizens, they are not inside of the israeli state, they are a "foreign" people that was defeated and occupied in a war. Thats not apartheid, thats occupation. If they don't like it, they can sue the yehudis for peace.


As many on both sides note, the US and Israel are in similar situations, there is an enemy out there that is working to attack us, they have their goals, we have ours, and they conflict. Thus, war is the natural state between us. I admire their relatively successful efforts at waging propaganda wars against the US and Israel, making themselves out to be victims, but I certainly don't beleive it.

And, again, as far as Iran, they need to make a decision, is it worth ending up like iraq to oppose the US? Iran is a relatively advanced and modern state, and most people there enjoy a stable, civilized, life with a good standard of living. Do they want to loose that over nuke weapons and supporting shia militias in iraq? If they do, fair enough, its really up to them.

Originally posted by Nygdan

In islam, there is a figure called the Mahdi, he will come at the end of the world to reform islam, before the final end of the world. The Bahai religion started when someone claimed to be the communicant of the Mahdi, called 'the door' (as in the door to the invisible, near supernatural Mahdi), in arabic (or persian? I don't recall) the "Babi" (door). The Babi said that the Mahdi is comming. The persian, during the colonial era mind you, not in the distant past, then executed the Babi.
Then a man named Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí claimed to be the one the Babi had prophesised, and called himself Bahá'u'lláh, claiming that the mahdi is himself a manifestation of god.
This is what the Bah'ai religion is about. The muslims in Iran, from before the Islamic Revolution and to today, have suppressed them, often violently, destroying their communities and cemetaries, etc.

First off the Mahdi is a Shiia concept and not one shared by all Muslims (or all Shiia either limited primarily to the Twelvers of Persian... meaning they counted 12 Imams out from the Prophet) and for a long time was considered a mystical concept. At one point around 1,000 the 12th Imam went into hiding to protect his life and began communicating through an intermediary referred to as the Bab or gate. There were several bab's to the Imam over the years until all communications ceased between the Imam and his followers. Some said that he had died (or was killed) without an heir and others said he had gone into occultation and would not return until the last days. The mid 1800's was a time of much millennial expectation in Persia and many looked for the return of the Imam. Much as many in the west and specifically in America looked for the return of the Christ at the same time. BTW the Imam and the Christ cannot be seen in Islam as even vaguely related characters... they are not. It was into this one Syyid Ali Muhammad, a desendant of Muhammad announced that he was the Bab on May 23th 1844. Needless to say his announcement and his claim that one would follow whom he called "The One Whom God Shall Make Manifest" caused an uproar and eventually tens of thousands embraced his "new" faith even though he claimed that it was nothing more than a renewal of Islam. Eventually this movement became to be seen as a threat to the government, the Bab was imprisoned and several military actions were launched against strongholds of the Babi's. Eventually the Bab was executed and after a failed attempt on the Shah's life by several distraught Babi's a massive pogram was launched against the faith where upwards of 20,000 were tortured and killed. many more were imprisoned and exiled. One of those imprisoned was a young nobleman by the name of Mirza Husayn, whose family had been ministers of the court for several generations. He had been very active in the early Babi movement and while imprisoned had a vision not unlike Muhammad's in the cave. Because of his rank he was not executed but exiled to Baghdad where he eventually delclared his mission by dictating several letters to international heads of state including Queen Victoria, the Pope, the Czar, the Shah and the Turkish Sultan etc. urging them to renounce war and start using their influence for the betterment of all humanity. He took the name Baha'u'llah (Farsi for The Glory of God). Eventually he was exiled from Baghdad to Akka or Acre in Palestine, just across the bay from Hiafa. He died in 1890 after writing (or dictating) some 200 books on his theme of the oneness of mankind, the unity of religion and the oneness of God. He is entombed at the estate of Bahji outside Akka and at his direction the remains of the Bab were entombed on Mount Carmel overlooking the city in a gold domed tomb. To this day the gradens surrounding that shrine is the heart and administrative center of the Baha'i' world.

Islam in general accounts Baha'i's as heretics because the faith asserts what they call progressive revelation and that despite Islam calling Muhammad the seal of the prophets, he was not the last prophet but that Baha'u'llah is the prophet of God in this day and others will follow him.

The Baha'i faith has been and continues to be severely prosocuted in Iran and have been systematically excluded from civic life there which has led in recent decades to a dispora of Baha'is from that country.

Some of the principles of the Baha'i faith are:

• Unity of God
• Unity of religion
• Unity of mankind
• Gender Equality
• Elimination of all forms of prejudice
• World peace
• Harmony of religion and science
• Independent investigation of truth
• Universal compulsory education
• Universal auxiliary language
• Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics
• Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty

Actually Satan in Islam is something of a buffoon and nothing like Christianities version. So when they refer to America as the great satan, among other things they are calling us the great buffoon.

I'm not trying to pretend to be all that well versed in the theological and ritual differences of any religion, islam included, I am just trying to explain things as I understand them.

First off the Mahdi is a Shiia concept and not one shared by all Muslims

Do you mean to say that not all muslims beleive that Imam Mahdi Mohammed, the 12th Imam, is the Mahdi? THe SUnni, I know, don't beleive that the Mahdi was Imam Mohammed Mahdi, nor that the Mahdi was 'occulted', but rather that he will be a regular person who becomes a reformer.
The bahai are basically claming that that reformation has occured and is their faith. There faith then is a 'perfection' of the islamic faith, not unlike how christianity is a 'fufilment' of judaism.

I suppose that there is something of a question of whether the Bahaulla or whatever is the Mahdi himself, or whether the Babi was in communication with the Mahdi, and the Mahdi told him that there will be a new 'character' in the theology, but either way, the Bahai faith is a fufilment/reformation of the islamic faith, and intended for all peoples.

deesell
Am I the only person that finds your attitude disturbing? I hope not.

Again, please explain why a threat should not be eliminated. I do not mean to say that any nation that has the physical ability to hurt us is a threat, by threat I mean a nation that has the motive, desire, means, ability, to attack us.
Why should we not attack such threats???

No not all Muslims believe in the Mahdi... the fundamental difference between Shiia and Sunni Islam is that after the death of Muhammad one of his companions was elected to lead the community of the faithful. A minority believed that leadership should have passed to Ali, Muhammad's nephew and through his bloodline. There are several versions of Shiia and I do not pretend to be an expert but the diffrences are rooted in how many of Ali's decendents are considered Imams. Up until the 16th century when one family contending for the peacock throne of Persia adopted Shiia as its official religion or sect, with the exception of the sixiers of Egypt, Shiia had pretty much been excluded from power and was pretty much a faith of the intellectual and mystic.

We cannot go about destroying everybody we dislike of disagree with us... to do so would make us no better, indeed far worse than those we condemn.

Just like whether Jesus was the Christ, Whether Baha'u'llah was the Mahdi is a matter of faith and as such beyond dispute.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
Just like whether Jesus was the Christ, Whether Baha'u'llah was the Mahdi is a matter of faith and as such beyond dispute.

Of course.
INfact, I am looking through some wiki entries, because I am confused about this relationship to the mahdi, and apparently, the Bab was thought to be the Mahdi by a follower of the previous mystic Siyyid Kázim, and the Bab himself started to say that he wasn't 'the bab to the mahdi', but rather he was the Mahdi/"Qaim"/Messiah himself. And then the messiah is saying that 'there is one that god will make manifest', and that is the Bahaullah, according to his followers.

We cannot go about destroying everybody we dislike of disagree with us

Nor should we. But we certainly should destroy those that want to attack us.

The thing is that there is not a single nation on earth that is a serious threat to the United States... they may swat at us but that is all. And that's all even China, or Russia (our only real... I don't want to say equals, but it is the word that comes close, competitors possibly but that is not right either) are really able to do compared at what we can do to them in return... that is why I believe that in 99.99% of the time we don't even have to use our military, just threaten to.

I fully believe that we should use our military rarely and sparingly but when we do use it, we should use overwhelming force, and even then as an absolute last resort. AND we are nowhere near the last resort with Iran, nor were we with Iraq... I will give bush minor Afghanistan since we had no choice but to respond... but in every other case facing us today the only thing we will be trying to save is bushes sorry ass.

I am a Baha'i' but I make no claims on being an expert about all things associated with it... much that happened in the earliest years are murky to say the least, though there are those who would disagree with me about that; odds are they are Persian though and have more through records and knowledge about those years than I do... even after 34 years.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by grover]

[edit on 28-1-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
The thing is that there is not a single nation on earth that is a serious threat to the United States

?
911.

No one can invade us, and no one can conquer us, and only the russians can destroy us, but it'd be a mutually assured destruction.

But just because a nation can't destroy us, doesn't mean that they can't be a serious threat.

I am a Baha'i' but I make no claims on being an expert about all things associated with i

Glad to see that I didn't make too many glaring errors in my basic understanding of it then.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by grover
The thing is that there is not a single nation on earth that is a serious threat to the United States

?
911.

No one can invade us, and no one can conquer us, and only the russians can destroy us, but it'd be a mutually assured destruction.

But just because a nation can't destroy us, doesn't mean that they can't be a serious threat.

I agree with you totally. I think one of the most dangerous threats we face today is from, for example, China. They are quickly buying all of our debt. That mortgage you have on your house was probably sold by your bank to a Chinese investor. If they were to decide to call back all of our debt, we'd be up a creek. So, yes, there are countries with the power--and the will--to be serious threats to us.

9/11 was not caused by a nation. And by using that you prove my point... Al Qeada is what 20 or 30,000 a few more or less... just strong enough to have an effect but in the long run no serious threat.... deadly yes but in the long run no national threat.... mind you I say national as in nationwide.