Devil in the details

I'm a little surprised that anyone who has examined the evidence could believe that these buildings collapsed down to the ground in the manner they did after having been damaged on the upper floors.

Let's discount the numerous eyewitness accounts of mutiple explosions heard or even felt at close range inside the buildings. Let's discount the seismic data referred to in the official 911 investigation report that indicates (on a logarithmic scale) a seismic disturbance for the north tower collapse which is almost twice as strong as that for it's twin sister. Let's discount Steven Jones' evidence for thermate induced severing of beams within the building, video of the "squibs", analysis of the pyroclastic flows of hot , repeat, hot dust, and the red hot fires that burned for months at the bottom of the rubble. And finally let's throw away the most compelling evidence of all for an "explosively assisted" collapse, i.e. the time for the collapses which is very close to free fall speed. Let's throw all of that out and put the argument in terms that an eight year old at the circus can understand.

If you have a strong man, symbolizing the bottom of one of the towers, supporting a stack of acrobats on his shoulders in a feat of strength, and the acrobats start to jump off the stack one by one banana peel style (as at the WTC, neither building fell neatly into it's own footprint), each acrobat that jumps off makes it that much easier for the strong man to support the rest of the stack. If all of the acrobats jump off one by one and the finally unencumbered strongman himself collapses, then an eight year old at the circus giggles because he gets the joke. This is substantially what happened on 9/11. The pancake theory, in W's words (in another context) is "an absurd suggestion."

However I really would like to hear about unexplained anomalies that happened on that day. These kind of details are often places where the paper mache covering the edifice is very thin.

You should discount just about everything you posted, because most of it is wrong or a gross exaggeration of what people said

I have no answeres i can offer. but I've always had troble with the CD theory.

The trouble stems from this:

How would anyone drill the columns and place the hundreds if not thousands of pounds of shaped charges into them, AND wire them all into sequence, without anyone hearing the work being done? Or seeing the wiring?

All the vids ive seen of CD's show hundreds of feet of electrical contact wiring...I just dont see it as possible...

Just a question that is in my mind.

If as suggested there were no or just only small fires, then why lots of people decided to jump?

If you were in such situation why would you jump?

I dunno if there are any good pictures of some of the people that jumped
but if there are it might be interesting to find out if their clothes were burned or showed any signs of it.

Sorry I am on dial up here so cannot do much research here.

Kind regards,

Alex

The people that were jumping, were jumping because they'd rather die quickly and painlessly rather than burning to death rather slowly, or suffocating in the smoke.

When people talk about how comparatively minor the fires were, this is in comparison to many other historical high-rise fires, and in the context of how resistant steel is to deformation from heat.

It takes a lot of heat over a long time to make a relatively small column deform enough for significant structural damage, such as the exterior "columns" of the Windsor Tower that burned much more severely than either WTC for almost an entire day. They were more like pipes than the much larger box columns used in the WTC Towers. And the WTC fires were less severe, and burned for only a fraction of the time. You can say the structures were different, but that still doesn't explain how those fires could have compromised those massive steel columns.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
I have no answeres i can offer. but I've always had troble with the CD theory.

The trouble stems from this:

How would anyone drill the columns and place the hundreds if not thousands of pounds of shaped charges into them, AND wire them all into sequence, without anyone hearing the work being done? Or seeing the wiring?

All the vids ive seen of CD's show hundreds of feet of electrical contact wiring...I just dont see it as possible...

What makes me really mad, is having to explain several details and facts about 9/11 over and over and over to the disbelievers.

It is FACT that the elevator shafts were close for several days before 9/11. "For maintenance". Please do your homework.

Also, with todays wireless technology, wiring explosives could be done with a simple cell phone, laptop, or even just a hobbiest RC controller from a hobby shop.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
How would anyone drill the columns and place the hundreds if not thousands of pounds of shaped charges into them, AND wire them all into sequence, without anyone hearing the work being done? Or seeing the wiring?

I seriously doubt it was carried out anything like that. Towers 1 & 2 were far from conventional demolitions. There are similarities, but over all, totally alien collapses to anything else, CD or "natural" or what have you. WTC7's collapse was more conventional and an implosion, but even it likely involved unconventional explosives.

Commercial demolition services, to my knowledge, use only explosives that have been around for decades, if not a century or more. TNT, C4, PETN, etc., and just recently have they started employing thermite-based charges, called "thermate", which is itself very old technology.

The forces we're dealing with here, though, wouldn't even have to touch that stuff. We're likely talking about advanced US military explosives, or some other high-tech weaponry brought in through an agency such as the CIA or Mossad (Israel's military is far from something to shake a stick at, too). What would be more likely would be planting a single device per floor that simply ripped out from the core outwards, or maybe a few per floor, or every other floor, or whatever was needed, and these devices were probably very small.

If you look up "red mercury" as one example of rumors the public is getting about what's going on behind the scenes with our weapons development, you'll see how easily this could be done. Fusion weapons, for example, could have been used without the need of fission, whereas in earlier decades fission was needed and created very messy and extremely powerful nuclear explosions. Now if they have a way of generating the heat and pressure without fission, then they have a bomb that can be the size of a baseball (according to at least one source, a Russian scientist if I'm not mistaken), and for which the energy yield can be set for a magnitude that would be impossible otherwise (this is what the "red mercury" thing was about, coming from the Russians, and subsequently mocked and then investigated by Los Alamos for some years -- not to say this is the only means of producing a pure fusion device, or that any number of other high-tech explosives could have also been used).

Explosives utilizing massive electrical forces, or great electrical potential (voltage) differences, creating a cloud of massive voltage in the same way an FAE disperses an air/gas cloud, have also been discussed. What is effectively created is an area (in the form of the cloud, whether aerosol or voltage or whatever anyone may come up with) in which the explosive blast can travel farther, faster, and do more damage along the way. There was an OKC survivor that said s/he felt significant static electricity, and had their hair stand on end, etc., just before the bomb went off, and others compared it to a clap of thunder. WTC7 coming down was also reported by at least one witness as starting with what sounded like a loud clap of thunder.

There were 2 or 3 devices removed from inside of the Murrah Federal Building that did not detonate. This was reported by FEMA and the Army, among other credible sources. One witness described a removed device as looking like a 5-gallon drum, and it was olive drab in color. Look at the damage at OKC and imagine two or three more devices going off, assuming the majority of the damage was from internal explosives anyway (of which there is also evidence). There are some similarities between the Murrah Federal Building and WTC7.

These are the kinds of devices I have to consider, because I'm not naive enough to believe that all of the US's military technology is in public domain. I'm not naive enough to believe they would never use these weapons as a part of a psy-op if they so had access. It's an unknown, sure, and probably can never be proven by science as we know it today, but I think the chances of high-tech devices like the above being used are pretty damned good, as I think the chances of them existing are pretty damned good, and the chances of the towers being demolished pretty damned good just from several basic physics issues. They wouldn't need or use C4, TNT, etc., which you would have to take a lot of time out to place.

And as someone else just pointed out, I think, you can do this all by remote control, no wires. Tesla invented remote control over 100 years ago. It's not new tech, either. Same way your remote control works, just with added security measures no doubt.

[edit on 22-1-2007 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by 1150111


It is FACT that the elevator shafts were close for several days before 9/11. "For maintenance". Please do your homework.

Also, with todays wireless technology, wiring explosives could be done with a simple cell phone, laptop, or even just a hobbiest RC controller from a hobby shop.

Ok to start off, sorry for the inconvience i seem to have caused you.
And can you give me a source for this fact? Im not doubting you, im just courious because if thats true it raises some questions. Such as, how did people get to their office if they worked on the 50th floor? or the 70th? our how about the top floors? did they walk?

Secondly, elevator shafts do have a tendancy to echo noise. IF charges were places INTO the columns, there would be a hell of a clatter as metal is being drilled.

The second question can be refuted if the charges were NOT places INSIDE the columns as the next guy pointed out, theres tonns of new tech out there and im sure they've got some high class explosives...


EDIT:

bsbray11
thanks for your reply. You are dead right, i never considered before this point the use of high grade "classified" explosives...You opened my eyes just a little bit more.


to clarify. I believe US leaders had preknowledge of 9/11. But im not sure if i believe they fully participated in it. But the possibility you raised certainly makes me lean one way more than the other...

[edit on 22-1-2007 by InSpiteOf]

The video 911 Mysteries is a well packaged rehash of many of the elements of the 911 story that have been explained by others but one thing it has which I haven't seen elsewhere is photos of "shaped charges" which use thermate in them. They appear to be very small and very portable. They appear to be the sort of thing you could attach in any number of ways to just about anything. They permit one to cut through steel beams like a hot knife through butter, literally.

If what I have seen is accurate, the only problem placing the charges would have been in relation to the core columns, where larger charges would have been needed and issues of concrete covering steel might have been more intractable. If you recall the collapse of the north tower there was a large section of core columns sticking up at the very final part of the collapse. That might have related to difficulty in being able to place charges (for whatever reason) on certain of those core columns.

The issue of the charges in the sub levels of the buildings is different altogether. Very powerful charges would have been required with the north tower needing a much bigger charge (remember the Richter scale reading) because the sub level core columns had been reinforced after the 1993 bombing. (I'm sorry to say it but I had a comical image pop into my mind of some patriotic civil engineer designing the beefed up reinforcements of the sub basement of the north tower and saying to himself, "Those ay-rabs ain' goin' ta blast thru this." Little did he know.)

I hadn't realized this issue is still such a bone of contention, epecially in 911 discussion forums. It's a bit of an eye-opener for me. I think the bottom lineis that if you have faith in rational logic carefully employed, you have to trust the wisdom that Conan-Doyle put into the mouth of Sherlock Holmes. Words to the effect that, when you have eliminated all other possibilities, what you have left is what happened, no matter how improbable.

You can almost look at this as a contest between the impossible and the improbable. The neocons are betting on the improbable. They think that ultimately they will get away with this because the general consensus will be that it is improbable that elements within the American government murdered their own citizens en masse for political and monetary ends. Unfortunately other alternatives are looking to be impossible. Any other cause for the total down to the ground destruction of the twin towers other than controlled demolition is impossible.

I really want to start probing what happened in Cleveland that morning, but you guys carry on with the towers. It's OK.

i was watching future weapons the otehr night and they showed these special shaped charges that were very small and pierced right through a large shell or unexploded bomb. It burns so hot that it burns the explosive up before it can blow up. I mean this was a very small device liek the size of a baseball maybe smaller and it was plastic and had a shaped charge put on it. Also I was thinking that going it and seting up the explosives wouldnt be too hard. I mean lets say that the people who supposedly rigged the towers with explosives posed as a phone company. They would have access to all the area of the building to run phone cord. Well lets say this cord was an explsive i think our gov has something like this. they could go in and set everything up for a perfect explosion and no one would think much because hey there just running new phone lines for the office.....idk what you guys think haha but jsut a theroy....