Universe Ponder Thread - Chaos Inverse Theory

I have always taken an interest in ideas explaining why or how or universe exists. I have read about and have been taught many of the theories out there. I am creating this thread as a place to disscuse, share philosophies, share thoughts, and share knowledge on why and how our universe is the way it is. Also, to share any thoughts, ideas, or philosophies on what our universe is doing.

I would like to start it with a theory of my own. I am currently in grade 12 chemistry and physics. So, my ability to explain or create theories with great scientific detial is limitted. This theory then is more of a philosophical ponder then and actual theory. I call it the Chaos Inverse Theory.

My Chaos Inverse Theory is based on the idea that the universe as a whole is evolving and the idea that we humans were not always here. In school and in books about quantum mechanics, I came across entropy. Entropy is the idea that things(Objects, particles, ect.) move from order to disorder. I however disagree with this. I believe that they are actually moving to order. To we humans common day idea of order, it may appear that things are moving to disorder but, I believe that if you were to look at the whole universe at once; the universe is actually ordering its self.

I watched a special a few years ago about the origin of the universe. This was about six years ago so, my memory is a bit fuzzy. The special showcased seven main theories on the universes' origin. One, was a form of the Chaos Theory. It said that the our universe popped into existence like a bubble. At the start it was very chaotic, the very make up of the laws a physics were not stable. For a amount of time, nothing complex or ordered were able to exist, such as elementary particles ect. Then after time the universe calmed down and things came into existence, including elementary particles, then matter, stable laws and behaviors ect.

I base my theory on this growing order. At one point nothing stable existed. Then lets say very basic elementary particles or string orders came into existence (I don't know if these terms are accurate but, they idea should remain the same. Also note you can place any theories bases here.). As the universe became more stable, the more stable and complex things formed. After a while stars and planets. Then life.

In this theory I suggest that life is a bench mark. When matter, energy, solar systems and stars first existed, life couldn't. I think life or consciousness, is a really high form of order. Thus, if our universe was moving to disorder, life would not evolve. I also think that a star is non order, and a black hole is order. The reverse of the example of an entropy example I read, which stated that a star is order and a black hole is not.

Now, there is our technology. I believe that our computers and other complex tech may actually be living or, will eventually. In biology I learned that life needs to come from life. We humans creating childern I think maybe that same as us bulding a computer. We force our existance/order/image onto non living matter. We humans and other life are acting like very advanced and dilluted governing particles. Think about it, look at the internet. It is an universe all its own. Look at the games, news, videos people creat and interact with. If concousness forms in the web, won't it wonder were it came from, and how the webverse came to existance. Since the web beings don't know of us, our input into the webverse may seem like governing particles/laws. This is just far fetching but, still.

Our universe keeps building on its self, then there will be a point of another benchmark in order. Who knows, we may actaully end up creating the next level of the universe through ourselves evolving, or creating things through technology. After a while I also believe that higher orders of life may form, over our selves, possibly from our selves. Maybe even dieing, we create more on other levels of the universe. We in turn my be creating gods, ghosts, and aliens/ufos.

Well, this is just a jitter of my Chaos Inverse Theory. Please comment and post your own ideas, philosophies, theories and ponders about how our universe exists and where it's heading. Hope you enjoy.

(If this is in the wrong area of ATS, moderators please move it to a suitable location.)
(I am sorry if there is another thread like this, I just wanted a decent thread of my own.)

[edit on 13-1-2007 by halfmask]

No comments? No other theories? Anyone else out there pondering about the universe or is it just me?

im sorry but i dont know how to properly start my part of this discussion.

so ill just jump in (and plz excuse me if i hurt your views).

regarding the terms chaos and order they are perspectives, and can be used interchangeable in any situation at any point during that situation. one cannot have one without the other they are intrinsically connected. [my two cents]

the "second law of thermodynamics" is where entropy has its foothold in its explanation. now the point of this(entropy) is all matter and or systems fade or die out, in a attempt to reach equilibrium with the majority of variables. every atom in your body comes from a star that has died. every star born comes from a "star nursery"(correct terminology escapes me). these nurseries them selves have a limit of creation. the truth is when the atoms we(life) are made of die in this quadrant of space we exist in, there can be no more life.

the time frame we are looking at is very large, so large in fact its highly probable all life will die before such a point in time is reached.

to suggest that because life evolves is a direct violation of this law, isn't valid imo. i will not deny that positive progress is occurring through the development of life, but i cant say this progress is preventing the inevitable. life is on a journey, a journey that requires it to consume its self in order to exist. at the heart of life- entropy is taking hold and eventually prevails. life is unique in that it can multiply and give the appearance of survival(against time). but it is futile.

it must be stated that it is not impossible for this entropy to escaped(however there is no proof to support this). what i mean from this is within the history of the universe, when all creation reaches equilibrium, it is still possible for a single point to become the father/mother of a new universe(big-bang). but this notion of recreation is an optimistic myth, many hold this as truth(which is fine).

i must also state that our universe is not building upon itself, the expansion is due to the exhaustion of particles.


in a virtual sense, yes things like code/software are without entropy. but on the hardware aspect of it- entropy is occurring.


one thing that this circles around in my opinion is a fundamental and elusive concept. the philosophers stone or the great elixir, these two are of the same concept, and this concept has one purpose- to defy this understanding of entropy. its as old as time and the belief is strong. i personally believe it may be possible, however i do not bring this belief into my understandings of reality. the notion of a device that is able to defy all natural systems must be excluded from the studies that deal with all that is natural.

again i apologize if a threw a monkey wrench into your perspective. i know that this perspective can be ego destroying, and can even make someone feel very depressed, but all is not lost. (should you feel that way)


if you have a question ask ill be glad to answer it(try).

Yay! A coment. Thanks Gllyph. I see your point, and have already considered this. I know my idea is very out there without much to back it up but, I think you missed my point. You seem to be baseing your point on partical physics or the more tradional theories. I know about equilbrium. You see, when this form or level in the existance of the universe reaches equilibrium, it is sorting out to a non-chaotic form. Then when this equilibritized form is reached, the universe will build apon its self again to a new more complex form, that will then try to equilibritize, and so on. What the classical science sees as dissordering, I see as ordering. If you get my idea. Since it is just an idea I don't mind if you constructionally bash it, this is good; it helps to build upon the idea. Thanks again for the reply Gllyph.

You may found this intresting if you have no already seen this.

www.tenthdimension.com...

Click on the spiraling numbers on the right hand side.


All the best

Everyone please note that this thread is not just about my theory. My theory was just an example. Feel free to post any of your own theories that you don't mind sharing.

I guess, I should take this time to post the rules. Your theories must be your own or origional. Any main stream theories are better placed and discussed about on other threads. You may however base your thoery on a main stream theory, or use main stream theories to support it. This thread is for more sciency or sci-fi based ideas but, paranormal based philosophys and theories are welcome too. Theories based on religion are allowed also but, no non-constructive bashing based on religion is allowed.(ie. you can't say that the bible says this so that is wrong.) Actually no non-constructive bashing of any form is allowed. This thread is just for pondering and is not intended to accomplish actual truth. More so, it is a journy in the attempt to find truth. Have fun.

Originally posted by gtirlad
You may found this intresting if you have no already seen this.

www.tenthdimension.com...

Click on the spiraling numbers on the right hand side.


All the best

Thanks for the link. I have read a bit about the M-theory before. I will watch the link. Full animate versions of 10 dementions could be useful to look at.

I forgot some of the rules in my last post.
-You may constructivly bash/argue.
-You may post info/links about main stream theories. Just don't restate a whole main stream theory by its self with out a link to one of our own theories being disscused.

[edit on 15-1-2007 by halfmask]

[edit on 15-1-2007 by halfmask]

Originally posted by halfmask
You see, when this form or level in the existance of the universe reaches equilibrium, it is sorting out to a non-chaotic form. Then when this equilibritized form is reached, the universe will build apon its self again to a new more complex form, that will then try to equilibritize, and so on.

unfortunately this is a fantasy. i touched base on it in my original post. there is no evidence to support a "recreation type" scenario.

What the classical science sees as dissordering, I see as ordering.

the nature of chaos/order is the nature of a coin. heads or tails its still just a coin. my point is that arguing "this is chaos.." or "this is order..." isnt really worthy of getting into a debate over.

example> it could be argued that when the universe reaches equilibrium, this is chaos at its highest form, as apposed to being a form of order.

both are truth... its like yin/yang- they are as one

if you say your at odds of the labeling of chaos over order (or vice-versa). it goes no where with me, because i dont separate to two.

this is in a sense of what Einstein had grappled with "special theory of relativity" within the scientific community.



the top of this post is more important of a discussion than the latter imo.

if you want to believe that the universe goes through cycles of death and rebirth. thats fine, but thats more of a philosophy than science.

This theory then is more of a philosophical ponder then and actual theory.

from a philosophical point of view- we are but shadows and dust.

within the scope of life many things are possible(great and feeble).

Originally posted by Glyph_D
.....

unfortunately this is a fantasy. i touched base on it in my original post. there is no evidence to support a "recreation type" scenario.

Sorry, I did not mean a recreation; I meant more of a leveling up or new stage or new point. Not really a rebirth. Sorry for the confusion.

the nature of chaos/order is the nature of a coin. heads or tails its still just a coin. my point is that arguing "this is chaos.." or "this is order..." isnt really worthy of getting into a debate over.

Actually this is big to debate over. All of our current scientific theories are all based on the orderings found in nature. Defining the order of nauture is what science is doing. So, being able to tell what needs to be ordered here or there is big. Are electrons or protons moving in a electric current? This makes a big difference, maybe not on a practical scale but, for complete understanding it is. This is what I am getting at. I know I don't have any evidence to support the reverse look at order but, none the less, ignoring that the universe could be that way, could be prventing us form finding the true or unified theories.

this is in a sense of what Einstein had grappled with "special theory of relativity" within the scientific community.

Special relativity was proven wrong/incomplete by Einstein himself. I get the point, things are relative because, of no unified point to measure by but, all that means is that we need to look at ordering from all angles.

This actually supports my theory. In my theory I am suggesting that we try to look at the universe as a whole all at once, rather than one point to another. At this, relative perspective means nothing because, all of the perspectives then are ordered. Now the problem is in what way. I am suggesting that it is the reverse of what classical science suggests. This could be big.

Qouting my physics teacher "I wouldn't be suprissed if in a decade or so, some 14 year old kid will prove all our current teachings wrong. Our technology is beyond our own theory!" All the current theories we have, are just theories, no better then mine or anyone elses. The only reason these theories have the stream, is that they can be applied to certian conditions, certian conditions only.