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Guantonamo

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posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by Jakomo
Seeker: "Facts are that the US pisses alot of folks off.....and guess what? The world will eventually get over it, won't they?"

It's exactly that type of attitude that brought about 9-11.

The world won't "get over it". U.S. State Sponsored Terrorism has killed millions over the years. Yes, MILLIONS. Overthrowing democratic governments (Iran, Chile, etc) and then cawing that you are Defenders of Democracy makes people think that you're idiots, and dangerous idiots.

And based on your current Administration's actions, that's pretty dead-on.


j







as you all know i have to agree with jakomo, good to see someone share the same thoughts ... maybe its not to late to lett em wake up jako..



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 09:16 AM
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I just hope the next Administration is ready to go into serious damage control and try to fix all the things Dubya and his neocon 'tards have messed up.

When I hear anti-American sentiment, 99% of the time the government is directly to blame. Your average American is far more tolerant and liberal than they are given credit for.



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 09:29 AM
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Jak said:
"The world won't "get over it". U.S. State Sponsored Terrorism has killed millions over the years. Yes, MILLIONS. Overthrowing democratic governments (Iran, Chile, etc) and then cawing that you are Defenders of Democracy makes people think that you're idiots, and dangerous idiots."


Simple historical facts Jak....the world will get over it, just like the US and the issue of 9/11.

"State sponsored Terrorism" is NOT solely regulated to the US nor are the "millions" that have died from its causes and purposes Jak...or do they even admit that historical truth to you folks at Amnesty International?
You can point your crocked finger all day long at the US, as you have ever continued to do, and place the blame for 'everything'............
You, as well as many others, fail, and yes---FAIL--, to comprehend that terrorism and state terrorism has been around, used, and utilized by virtually every nation, including your very own. Your continued, as you so eloquently put it: "cawing".....your continued "cawing" is mis-placed and mis-guided, and has no historical relevence. It solely a biased opinion, coming from a biased source, coming from another biased source.
You simply took what I said and used it to your own ends, and that was to justify your reasonings for why the US got what it deserved......!
Well Jak.....lets hope for your sake and for the sake of many others, that such an occurence does not happen in beautiful, peace-loving Canada or in Germany or France.......
Imagine the amount of people who would speak as you....a member of a highly biased organization as Amnesty International.....and say that you only got what you nation deserved.


Also....provide the proof for your assertions: "Overthrowing democratic governments (Iran, Chile, etc)"

And then ask me of I have a problem with it or not before passing your condemnation and pre-dispositions around.....


Peace Jak.


regards
seekerof



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 09:55 AM
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Well Jak.....lets hope for your sake and for the sake of many others, that such an occurence does not happen in beautiful, peace-loving Canada or in Germany or France.......
Imagine the amount of people who would speak as you....a member of a highly biased organization as Amnesty International.....and say that you only got what you nation deserved.


regards
seekerof


HI Seekerof, i might sound stupid but maybe if u think about it u see why it doesnt happen to countrys like france or germany, or even russia till some time ago..as soon as people start thinking they are the worlds keepers, the wolrds police force and just apply laws and rules on people that have theyre own lifes and set of rules and dont harm anybody with it then it gets fokked up. Like i said b4, kill and be killed...so also, dont kill and dont be killed...



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 10:06 AM
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Originally posted by Dreamz
Good posts ECK, and I agree 100%.


Thanx, Dreamz.


As to fair trials for the detainees, I wouldn't hold my breath. I mean, look at the Zacharias Moussaui case. If the government loses, which they most likely will, they're just gonna cart him off to Gitmo and MAKE him guilty. He doesn't have much of a chance, either way.

After having been in the Army, I've never had much faith in the fairness of military courts. Actually, the thought of being tried for court-martial always scared me. I always felt the military was much more biased than civilian courts. Thankfully, I never got into any trouble with UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). The thought of being sent to Ft. Leavenworth to do time was all that I needed to keep on that straight and narrow. I'd say Leavenworth would be like Club Med compared to Gitmo.



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Well its apparent that I need to re-post this information again:

"The ultimate reason to have legal rules defining combatant status is not simply to ensure that the right of combatants to employ vicarious violence is respected, but simultaneously to ensure, as far as possible, that such violence is not directed against civilians. The essence of combatant status is to be liable, at any time, to deliberate attack. The essence of civilian status is to be immune from deliberate attack. Any legal norm that expands the rights of civilians to function as combatants is certain to erode that basic immunity. In legal terms, what is good for the guerilla must inevitably be bad for the civil society within which he hides. To suppose otherwise is to imagine the legal equivalent of a perpetual motion machine, which seeks to draw a circle that cannot be closed, but must inevitably spiral in upon itself. A terrorist or other "illegal combatant" who trades upon his adversary's respect for the law is, in effect, using the law as a weapon. He cannot simultaneously use it as a shield, and he may well deprive those around him of its aegis as well."
"Illegal Combatants" and the Law of Armed Conflict'
Link:
www.ccc.nps.navy.mil...


"In February of this year, President Bush determined the posi-tion of the United States concerning at least some of thesequestions. In essence, as announced by the White HousePress Secretary on February 7, 2002, he decided that(1) The 1949 Geneva Convention concerning the treatmentof prisoners of war, to which both Afghanistan and theUnited States are Parties, applies to the armed conflict inAfghanistan between the Taliban and the United States;(2) That same Convention does not apply to the armed con-flict in Afghanistan and elsewhere between al Qaeda and theUnited States;(3) Neither captured Taliban personnel nor captured alQaeda personnel are entitled to be POWs under that Conven-tion; and(4) Nevertheless, all captured Taliban and al Qaeda person-nel are to be treated humanely, consistent with the generalprinciples of the Convention, and delegates of the Interna-tional Committee of the Red Cross may visit privately each detainee."
"The Taliban, al Qaeda, and the Determination of Illegal Combatants"
Link:
216.239.39.104...:xGc5a3zM6FUJ:www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/0/C82A7582AE20DCD1C1256D34004AEA41/%24File/George%2BAldrich_3 _final.pdf%3FOpenElement+illegal+combatants&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


"Illegal Combatants
The Issue: Supreme Court agrees to examine Guantanamo jurisdiction. Our View: This could lead to further constitutional review."

Link:
www.myinky.com...


"Illegal combatant"
Link:
en.wikipedia.org...

"Guantanamo Bay"
Link:
en2.wikipedia.org...

Excerpt:
"The peculiar legal status of Guantanamo Bay aids in these uses. Because sovereignty of Guantanamo Bay ultimately resides with Cuba, persons detained at Guantanamo are legally outside of the United States and do not have the Constitutional rights that they would have if they were held on United States territory (see Cuban American Bar azz'n, Inc. v. Christopher, 43 F.3d 1412 (11th Cir. 1995)). The U.S. has classified the prisoners held at Camp X-Ray as illegal combatants rather than prisoners of war, which would also have given them protection through the Geneva Conventions."


Post number: 270440, from the thread: "War Crimes" at Gitmo"

The "key" to this whole thing is the situation of Gitmo and the classification of the "detainees".


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 3-12-2003 by Seekerof]


Great info., Seekerof.
It's very important to understand those differences in classification.



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 12:05 PM
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Seeker: "Also....provide the proof for your assertions: "Overthrowing democratic governments (Iran, Chile, etc)"

And then ask me of I have a problem with it or not before passing your condemnation and pre-dispositions around....."


Okay.

In 1953, the CIA toppled democratic president Mossadeq in Iran and installed the dictatorical Shah.

In 1973, the U.S. toppled democratic president Allende in Chile paving the way for dictator Pinochet.

The U.S. eliminated Patrice Lumumba in republic of Congo in 1960 and installed the criminal Mobutu.

The U.S. toppled democratic president Sukarno in Indonesia and installed mass murderer Suharto, who proceeded to rob the nation.

The U.S. intervened to crush freedom movements or popular leaders in El Salvador, Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala, and other South American countries.

The U.S. backed dictator Ferdinand Marcos of Phillippines.

The U.S. was instrumental in bringing mass murderer Pol Pot to power in Cambodia.

Just because you have no clue what kind of negative impact your country's foreign policy has had around the world doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Do you have a problem with these?


jako



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 05:54 PM
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The worlds reaction to Guantanemo can be summed in another act of inumanity...Daniel Pearl.

The men who cut off his head, said they were doing it in retaliation to the treatment of the men in Cuba. The killers of Pearl, said they did not have the means to do what the US was doing ( sensory deprivation, mind torture, flying 23 hours kneeling and handcuffed with no toilets, etc etc ), so done the next best thing in their opinion.

Good article

~Messiah~



posted on Dec, 4 2003 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by wwviews
The worlds reaction to Guantanemo can be summed in another act of inumanity...Daniel Pearl.

The men who cut off his head, said they were doing it in retaliation to the treatment of the men in Cuba. The killers of Pearl, said they did not have the means to do what the US was doing ( sensory deprivation, mind torture, flying 23 hours kneeling and handcuffed with no toilets, etc etc ), so done the next best thing in their opinion.

Good article

~Messiah~


Oh man, there are MANY ways to torture someone without even laying a hand on them. It's freaky.



posted on Dec, 5 2003 @ 12:24 AM
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Now that might be an interesting thread eastcoast. You got any info on torture methods?

Anyway, my question about all these detainees is, do all of those being held have a connection to the taliban/al Qaida? It is amazing that the US was able to swoop in and capture all of these individuals that are supporters, yet can still not find bin laden or sadaam. I think a lot of individuals there are being held without any reason. Maybe to put pressure on family members to snitch any information they have. I dunno?



posted on Dec, 5 2003 @ 03:03 AM
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from seekerof
A terrorist or other "illegal combatant" who trades upon his adversary's respect for the law is, in effect, using the law as a weapon. He cannot simultaneously use it as a shield, and he may well deprive those around him of its aegis as well."


One observation on this statement. Isn't this what lawyers spend their lives doing? Exploiting the law for their own means, while protecting themselves, with those same laws, from others attempting to do the same to them.


What I don't understand is, Why is it not possible to use drugs to quickly and more easily extract information from the so-called "enemy combatants"? There is such thing as truth serum, is there not? Why is there a need to imprison people for such long periods of time, without charging them and without allowing anyone to know who is there and for what? Are these prisoners all impervious to truth serum? I find that very hard to believe.



posted on Dec, 5 2003 @ 04:17 AM
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Just imagine if the government decides "you" are a risk to the big plan and scoops you up with out notifying your family. Sounds very much like something I heard before, hmmmm, what was it, ahhh the Patriot Act. In theory this could also happen to US citizens that have no ties to terrorist activity.



posted on Dec, 6 2003 @ 11:15 AM
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jezebel commented:
"What I don't understand is, Why is it not possible to use drugs to quickly and more easily extract information from the so-called "enemy combatants"? There is such thing as truth serum, is there not? Why is there a need to imprison people for such long periods of time, without charging them and without allowing anyone to know who is there and for what? Are these prisoners all impervious to truth serum? I find that very hard to believe."

Jez, that is a very good question and with such a question, I cannot knowingly give a satisfactory answer for what you ask.
The process of using a "truth serum" would undoubtedly be the prudent thing to use and probably more of a humane one. The humane and inhumane issues, in my honest opinion, are valid and yet are invalid. This is due to the nature of any internment camp or facility worldwide...past and present and will be so in the future. War or conflicts are not humane. The reasons for 'a' war or conflict may be based on humane arguments, etc. but will not excuse the fact that war and conflict itself is inherently inhumane.

Your question is a very valid one Jez, and one that will probably never be satisfactorily answered, at least not by me.

*edit*
I found this rather informative article:
"International Law and POWs"
Link:
www.cfr.org...



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by Seekerof]




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