Probe Into Beating of Man by Cops Begins

Originally posted by Colonel
Look, you Kentuckians or Louisvillians or whatever you call yourselves aren't even for real. It's not a real city, Observer! Hell, you don't even have a football team! You have to borrow someone else's.

Aren't even real.. huh.. wha..

So you are claiming that the Redskins are a "football" team. Spurrier ball blows. The end is near. You already left RFK stadium.. give up, you'll never be the Cowboys.
(that should drive him up a wall LOL)

Besides who needs football when we have college basketball and 2 top notch teams to choose from to boot.
When is the last time Georgetown Bball was even an afterthought in the NIT by the way? Maybe in Ewing's days?

Originally posted by observer
So you are claiming that the Redskins are a "football" team. Spurrier ball blows. The end is near. You already left RFK stadium.. give up, you'll never be the Cowboys.
(that should drive him up a wall LOL)

Look, don't talk about the Redskins. Spurrier is an ass and I NEVER liked him. We got Pro Bowl players on the team. Its just that the coaching sucks and so does Snyder. We're about to run Spurrier outta town anyway.

DON'T GET ME STARTED.....LOOK WHAT I FOUND

Jones was carrying coc aine and three hand-rolled cigarettes that had been dipped in methanol, an ingredient in embalming fluid that gets people high, authorities said.

Where Found

Antifreeze
Paint remover or thinner
Shellac
Varnish
Canned heating sources
Windshield wiper fluid
De-icing fluid
Glass cleaners
Note: This list may not be all inclusive.

Symptoms

Weakness
Leg cramps
Convulsions
Breathing difficulty
No breathing
Blurred vision
Blindness
Dilation of the pupils
Bluish-colored lips and fingernails
Nausea, vomiting
Drop in blood pressure
Coma
Fatigue
Headache
Dizziness
Home Treatment

Methanol is highly toxic, and you must seek medical care at your nearest emergency room for any ingestion.

so let me get this right... just because a city doesn't have a football team, it's not a real city..

that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard !!


by the way... I AM FROM KENTUCKY TOO !!!!!!!!

Having worked in Cincinnati and seeing it first hand.. yes
racism is thriving.. alive and well there !

OOOPS....SORRY....I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE

Originally posted by elevatedone
so let me get this right... just because a city doesn't have a football team, it's not a real city..

that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard !!


by the way... I AM FROM KENTUCKY TOO !!!!!!!!

Having worked in Cincinnati and seeing it first hand.. yes
racism is thriving.. alive and well there !

So you come from that lame-ass state too with no football team. Guess that's why you had to leave. I'll make sure I bring my banjo and dip next time I visit.

Originally posted by Venus
DON'T GET ME STARTED.....LOOK WHAT I FOUND

Jones was carrying coc aine and three hand-rolled cigarettes that had been dipped in methanol, an ingredient in embalming fluid that gets people high, authorities said.

Where Found

Antifreeze
Paint remover or thinner
Shellac
Varnish
Canned heating sources
Windshield wiper fluid
De-icing fluid
Glass cleaners
Note: This list may not be all inclusive.

Symptoms

Weakness
Leg cramps
Convulsions
Breathing difficulty
No breathing
Blurred vision
Blindness
Dilation of the pupils
Bluish-colored lips and fingernails
Nausea, vomiting
Drop in blood pressure
Coma
Fatigue
Headache
Dizziness
Home Treatment

Methanol is highly toxic, and you must seek medical care at your nearest emergency room for any ingestion.

Does it lead to violence? No. Should someone be killed for using? No.

As far as mace or pepper spray, I suspect the reason they didn't use that as there was a cop struggling with this guy, it wouldn't be possible to hit the guy without hitting the top as well.

If it was a big fat white guy doing the same thing, I would expect he'd get the same response.

Originally posted by Kano
As far as mace or pepper spray, I suspect the reason they didn't use that as there was a cop struggling with this guy, it wouldn't be possible to hit the guy without hitting the top as well.

If it was a big fat white guy doing the same thing, I would expect he'd get the same response.

Expectations and reality are two different things.

As far as should he be killed for any of that, clearly no. However, also clear is that he was not beaten to death, he died as a result of being beaten. In the tapes I've seen as soon as they have him under control the beating stops. He died partly due to bad luck, partly due to stupidity, and I'd say partly due to bad health. Not helped by the fact he had whatever drugs in him at the time.

Originally posted by Colonel
Expectations and reality are two different things.

Well if I attacked a couple of cops I'd expect to get wailed on and then arrested. If I continued to ignore their requests and kept fighting, I'd expect to keep getting bashed. What would you expect?

[Edited on 3-12-2003 by Kano]

What I expect is to find out what happened to the 97 seconds of missing (erased) tape that came beofre the beating.

Furthermore, you're twisting words---like Clinton. "as a result of" and "because of" and "due to" or however you want to twist is means HE DIED FROM BEING BEATEN.

Yes but he was not beaten to death. That would infer the beating continued until he was dead, not the beating continued until he was overpowered, and later died.

Why ignore the question, what would you expect if you attacked cops this way and continued to resist?

I am going to quote BT for your answer:


"These are "Peace Officer". That should mean that they contain folks who are using non-leathal means of resistence. that means having "smother techniques" applied. Not "concussive techniques". Repeated blows, and specifically the jab penetrations with full body weight behind them to the victims body cavity, thus injuring internal organs and possibly damaging the heart, are not "peace keeper" moves.
I've always said that cops need more training, particularly fight training. I see no reason a "peace officer" should not be an expert in grappling and joint lock techniques."

Right ignore the question again then.

Did it look like they had any chance in hell of grappling this guy down?

I think 6 guys could grapple this guy down. Its not like these cops weighed a buck 20.

Read this link: I think this answers some questions and leaves some others unfullfilled.
Here is a sample:
Parrott said the death will be ruled a homicide, but that such a ruling "should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police."

link

Will we evr know what happend in the 97 seconds that was cut off from the video tape BEFORE the attack? That would answer a lot of questions.

I seriously doubt it Col. You know as well as I that that tape is gone forever.

Originally posted by Colonel
I am going to quote BT for your answer:


"These are "Peace Officer". That should mean that they contain folks who are using non-leathal means of resistence. that means having "smother techniques" applied. Not "concussive techniques". Repeated blows, and specifically the jab penetrations with full body weight behind them to the victims body cavity, thus injuring internal organs and possibly damaging the heart, are not "peace keeper" moves.
I've always said that cops need more training, particularly fight training. I see no reason a "peace officer" should not be an expert in grappling and joint lock techniques."

This is my last statement on this issue. I have Christmas cookies to bake, a website to update, and a visit to the gym.

1) On the "homicide" ruling:
Link

Hamilton County Coroner Carl Parrott said his autopsy showed that Jones suffered from an enlarged heart, obesity and had intoxicating levels of coc aine, PCP and methanol in his blood.
Parrott said the death will be ruled a homicide, but that such a ruling "should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police."
Jones' body had bruising on the lower half, but did not show signs of blows to the head or organ damage, Parrott said.
The coroner said he had to rule the death a homicide because it didn't fall under other categories of a death in Ohio: accident, suicide or natural.
Jones' death certificate will list a cause of death as an irregular heart beat because of a stress reaction from the violent struggle, Parrott said.

2) On police training in grappling & joint lock techniques:

Um.
Police are trained extensively in both CQC (close quarters combat) and joint lock techniques. Many officers also take individual training in martial arts (especially judo - my wrestling trainer is also a judo instructor, and provides training to several DC-area police departments) or self defense to supplement their departmental training.
The growing trend right now in law enforcement is training in the martial art Krav Maga. If you don't know what it is, do a little reading. It's quite interesting.

"Joint locks" on their own are a flawed means of control. Quite simply, they do not work on everyone.
Hell, many of them don't affect me, and I'm just a 180lb white girl.
Factors such as a person's pain tolerance, flexibility, connective tissue mobility, etc can completely nullify a joint lock that would put ten other people on the ground.
Here, let me give you a direct example. In my case, I have the first advantage of an extremely high pain tolerance. If I can keep punching with a dislocated shoulder (and I have...), a leglock won't faze me as much as Joe Average. I'm also hyper-mobile in most of my joints (aka "double jointed"). What good is a lock going to do if I can just bend right out of it? Not much! Believe me, I suprised my ex-hubby more than once doing that when we'd spar.
My point is, you can't guarantee that one technique will subdue everyone.

Now, since you're fuming that the cops in this instance should have at least tried grappling or something on Mr. Jones....
They did.
I saw it, but I also have some training in CQC. I understand that you guys don't, and therefore would miss it.
But what would I know?
I've only had fight training in various forms for 15 years now.

-B.