Welsh nod for English Parliament

news.bbc.co.uk...

I strongly believe that if the English get their own parliament, it will be highly likely that the calls for the break up for the UK will end. Suppport has probably increased because the English feel they are being ignored and Labour could gain more support in England if they create an English Parliament.

Numerous historic buildings can be used throughout England, especially London, to house an English Parliament. There really is no need to build a new one either.

This can be a campaign winner for any party.


[edit on 20-12-2006 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite
I strongly believe that if the English get their own parliament, it will be highly likely that the calls for the break up for the UK will end. Suppport has probably increased because the English feel they are being ignored and Labour could gain more support in England if they create an English Parliament.

I think you hit one of the nails on the head with "English feel they are being ignored", people wonder if the Scots and the Welsh can have their own national Parliament/Assembly can we also have one, and when they ask they're told "no, you not allowed one".

I think an English parliament would be a great idea, a London based UK Parliament that would deal with issues that affect all of the UK and a transfer of powers to the individual national Parliaments, plus we can do away with the silly idea of regional assemblies.

Originally posted by infinite
Numerous historic buildings can be used throughout England, especially London, to house an English Parliament. There really is no need to build a new one either.

Oh God no, not an English Parliament in London, lets have it somewhere else such as York, somewhere just north of the centre of England.

Originally posted by infinite
This can be a campaign winner for any party.

In agreement with you there.


[edit on 20-12-2006 by UK Wizard]

I think it's pretty crazy that other parts of the UK have their own parliaments, but England doesn't.

You guys should adopt a U.S.-style federal system where you have a central government and state governments with a constitution as the contract specifying the powers and duties of each level.

And while you're at it you can give the Queen the boot!

we should have a federal system like the States and Germany

UK Wizard, we do currently have unelected assembly's throughout the UK, i found mine (South East) on the net, but they have no powers to make laws. London is the only elected assembly in the UK.

And while you're at it you can give the Queen the boot!

we should indeed djohnsto77, UK is old enough and mature enough to elect all leaders now. we do not need an out dated system.

[edit on 20-12-2006 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite
UK Wizard, we do currently have unelected assembly's throughout the UK, i found mine (South East) on the net, but they have no powers to make laws. London is the only elected assembly in the UK.

Yep, they exist in a semi-dormant state, waiting for the time a democratic vote will grant them stronger powers, but while in this dormant state they still consume money and resources, wasteful and not needed.

I can see why large cities would require an assembly but to regionalise England into coldly cut regional zones is unneeded and wasteful.

Originally posted by infinite
we should indeed djohnsto77, UK is old enough and mature enough to elect all leaders now. we do not need an out dated system.

I'm glad you think I'm old and mature enough to elect all the leaders, I'll do my best

Welsh nod for English Parliament

England should have its own parliament, the presiding officer of the Welsh Assembly, Lord Elis-Thomas, has said.

- That's nice.......like it was ever down to him!

Originally posted by infinite
I strongly believe that if the English get their own parliament, it will be highly likely that the calls for the break up for the UK will end.

- I agree.

A loosening of the ties and a degree of flexibility will do nothing but good.

If we do not then I think the reverse is also true, too inflexible an approach risks fracturing and seriously damaging to the union.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
"English feel they are being ignored", people wonder if the Scots and the Welsh can have their own national Parliament/Assembly can we also have one, and when they ask they're told "no, you not allowed one".

- That is a complete misrepresentation of what has been said on this matter by the Gov.

English people are perfectly entitled to an English Assembly or an English Parliament if they want one, this has been the preferred and stated Gov policy for 9yrs and at 3 general elections.

Ditto for city Mayors and elected regional Assemblies.

What they cannot have (and must not ever be allowed to have) - if you truly value the concept of the 'UK' - is Westminster (the UK Parliament) acting as an English Parliament.

It is this proviso that has been held up as if that 'proves' England can't have it's own Parliament or Assembly but that is nothing like the same thing.
Those claims are a deliberate and total manipulation of the truth......so much so that the claims that this Gov has said "no England you may not have an English Parliament/Assembly" are a total fabrication and an outright lie.

we can do away with the silly idea of regional assemblies.

- What is your problem with devolving power closer to those that power effects?
Surely that is the more democratic path to take?

.....and as far as 'waste' is concerned surely the whole point is that by devolving decision making powers to those effected waste is reduced, compared to remote and badly informed 'Government by remote-control' (sometimes as much as 400mls away)?

If the people want regional assemblies why can't they have them?

Originally posted by infinite
This can be a campaign winner for any party.

In agreement with you there.

- ..........and here is the 'problem' that has existed with this matter ever since Labour came into office promising devolution if the people wanted it.

Cos every time the matter is raised few in England, outside those claiming to believe it so vital and to be so motivated, seem to be that bothered when it comes to it.



[edit on 21-12-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
What is your problem with devolving power closer to those that power effects?
Surely that is the more democratic path to take?

True enough, but is more democracy always a good thing? Ultimately an over democtratised system becomes unwieldly, (a la Switzerland and the one referendum a fortnight system) and what worries me particularly is that it dilutes the quality of governmental representatives - Lord alone knows there are few enough impressive ones to go around now.

and here is the 'problem'...

...Cos every time the matter is raised few in England, outside those claiming to believe it so vital and to be so motivated, seem to be that bothered when it comes to it.

You are bang on the mark Sir. The only reason anybody outside the political world wants an English Parliament is so that we don't feel the the Scots and the Welsh have got something that we haven't. Which is a damned silly reason to spend billions of pounds a year for worse government in my opinion.





[edit on 21-12-2006 by timeless test]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
English people are perfectly entitled to an English Assembly or an English Parliament if they want one, this has been the preferred and stated Gov policy for 9yrs and at 3 general elections.

But people do want one, I got an email just last month from the CEP (Campaign for an English Parliament) thanking me for contributing to an online petition which will be added to other petitions and sent to Downing Street.

Why does the Government not present the issue with a nation vote?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
If the people want regional assemblies why can't they have them?

They can, but didn't want them by a margin of 78% to 22%.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
What they cannot have (and must not ever be allowed to have) - if you truly value the concept of the 'UK' - is Westminster (the UK Parliament) acting as an English Parliament.

As I've said, I wouldn't want any English Parliament to be even located in London, York possibly?

Originally posted by djohnsto77
You guys should adopt a U.S.-style federal system where you have a central government and state governments with a constitution as the contract specifying the powers and duties of each level.

And while you're at it you can give the Queen the boot!

The UK is a bit too small to implement a decent US-style system... and besides, I don't really mind the UK's system anyway

As for a written constitution... I'm neutral on this. I've yet to come to a firm decision because our system has worked pretty well so far, but whether it will continue to is a matter for debate.

In the English parliament debate, there are two possible options:

1) Give England its own parliament (hold a referendum on the issue) and allow it to have the same powers as the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies with appropriate funding.

2) Dissolve the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish parliaments and administer it all from London as it was pre-devolution.

The UK Parliament could continue making laws, foreign affairs, defence, the economy, the budget and so on (issues which affect the whole of the UK) whilst the 'local' parliaments looking into things like education, transport, local government and so forth.

Again, I don't mind either way. I would suggest that the first option is more democratic, and the second option cuts out a lot of bureaucracy and might be cheaper (and possibly more efficient?). It depends what the public wants, I suppose.

And your last comment... I have to say I disagree with that completely. The monarchy is part of our traditions and heritage and there are numerous roles it does and can play in the governance of the United Kingdom.

Trying to get us to do what you did in the late eighteenth century, eh?

Originally posted by Ste2652
Give England its own parliament (hold a referendum on the issue) and allow it to have the same powers as the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies with appropriate funding.

Only trouble is that under the damn fool system we have managed to introduce they all have different powers. To be perfectly honest it is difficult to imagine how we could have made a more comprehensive Horlicks of the whole affair so far.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
But people do want one, I got an email just last month from the CEP (Campaign for an English Parliament)

- Well I agree Wizard, some people do indeed want one.

Whether that adds up to that many people across the whole country is another matter.

Why does the Government not present the issue with a nation vote?

- Perhaps because the feed-back they are getting is that, besides those involved in the issue, it leaves most people cold.

They can, but didn't want them by a margin of 78% to 22%.

- ......which I think is part of the reasoning that says England isn't really that ar*ed about it all.

'Business' lined up with the Labour party (the party of Government no less), 'Business' loved the idea but none of them could persuade the people to vote for it.

I wouldn't want any English Parliament to be even located in London, York possibly?

- Well I reckon the sooner those using this for political capital stop using that point then the closer England might be to getting the institution some claim 'she' wants.

Frankly I'm not too sure.
I think a lot of English people accept the Scots, Welsh and Irish institutions as a bit of reasonable balance because they understand just how 'English-centric' the UK in an overall sense is.

Some on the British right think the Scots, Welsh and Irish are getting something they are not and can even point to the occasional minor difference in law or provision to make that claim but the truth is that England enjoys far more than they.

On the British left others see this as a democratising step that would be healthy for the country.
I have sympathy with this view.

The trouble is that - as is so often the case in the world of politics - once you go 'outside of the political village' and beyond those making the fuss about this, very few of the rest of 'our country folk' seem quite so consumed.

Originally posted by timeless test
Only trouble is that under the damn fool system we have managed to introduce they all have different powers. To be perfectly honest it is difficult to imagine how we could have made a more comprehensive Horlicks of the whole affair so far.

It's partly due to the circumstances into which these parliaments were born. They've got different powers because the people in Northern Ireland were openly fighting one another, so something had to be done. Scotland perhaps has the largest base of nationalist support (or at least Scottish nationalists can shout the loudest ) and the Welsh were a bit quieter over pretty much everything.

If an English parliament is ever created then the powers of all 'local' parliaments needs to be made uniform and the powers of the central UK Government also needs to be set out. I suppose this is where a written constitution could come in... though I see no reason why it couldn't be done via statute as everything else is.

I doubt this decision would fall within the remit of the UK Govt any more

England has been carved up into bite sized chunks already by Brussells (the regional assemblies have been advertising in national newspapers!! just google "north east regional assembly" if you want to find them) Wales was left off the map - not sure whether that is an omen

This has all been done on the sly and are not really "assemblies" as they are unelected. We used to call them Quangos and Wales was over-run with them until the senedd made it all a tiny bit more democratic

I cant help but think that this is Englands chickens coming home to roost. Now you know what it feels like to be bullied by a larger more powerful neighbour (EU) and have all your institutions run by unelected quangos from "abroad"

We have had centuries to get used to it in Wales - so if you need any survival tips we will gladly give the English the benefit of our experience

We should have 4 constituent parts (rebranded "States") to Britain,

Scottish, Welsh and English (in York) Assemblies, each with a 1st Minister, and the London Mayorship.

These would be overseen by the PM in the British Parliament in Westminster which would retain absolute sovereignty as the Government of the Kingdom of Great Britain. The devolved powers should be set in stone to avoid constant squabbling/demands for new powers etc.

We should get rid off N. Ireland and rotate the crown between Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Britain.

Done - a modernised Nation for the 21st century.