If I'm the president of united states,I could make it more rich

what you're doing now is being ignorant, I have made my points very clear and am not ignoring anything, you have hardly made any points at all and are just posturing, take a minute and read my posts please, you are in no position to debate fair tax, i suggest you go to a fair tax blog and post, and debate it with more intellectuals as they would prolly dedicate more time than I actually have to inform you, because obviously you're misinformed.

i took one of youe 'example solutions' and pointed out the horrible flaws, i edited my postst so please reread as every sentence i typed was making a significant point rather than irrelenat posturing.

Originally posted by apei took one of youe 'example solutions' and pointed out the horrible flaws

You probably believe that, which is exactly why I will only continue this debate in a judged forum. We have a disagreement as to what constitutes a relevant point and a rebuttal, therefore feedback is necessary to make this discussion productive.

You have so far had no problem investing time in this discussion, so I believe you could represent yourself ably enough in the debate forum if you so chose, but you are under no obligation to.

Since you choose not to though, our discussion is concluded. I will not invest the considerable efforts which I make my standard into making a point that you are not able to understand, only to be criticized by someone who doesn't even have enough of a grip on the subject to know that he's being refuted.

My invitation to debate remains open should you care to stand by your assessment of my posting. Apart from that, there is no sense in continuing this discussion, as any further belittlement would lack credibility, coming from a man who turns the other cheek to a white glove.

posted by vagabond
The logical solution is to tax our under-burdened upper class while maintaining the presence of their business by using those taxes to build infrastructure that make America fertile ground for industries in which other nations are not prepared to compete with us.

posted by ape
that would only do the opposite. first of all this tells me you dont understand our current tax system, the average/poverty level american pays only 4% of income taxes while the rich and mega wealthy pay the rest of the percentage, and yet you posture up on me like this?

are you suggesting the rich which is a broad base and would include corporate taxes because taxing corporate profits is taxing wealth ( see above ) pay a higher federal income tax and then have the feds loan it back ( with of course interest )? because that is the only way it would work in your little world of simplified taxation is if the people that run these companies and the companies with their profits get hit hard and then have the money loaned back to them for infrastructure development oh and also debt and submission to government demands, that doesn't make any sense at all what the heck are you talking about? you would rather tax the hell out of the people and companies that provide the current low wage jobs and even good paying jobs even more? also raising taxes on small business which is what your proposal would cause and having them suffer and forced to lay off employees? considering they are the sole reason of our low unemployment this would cause layoff's and economic recession? causing more outsourcing by big corp so they can make whatever profits they can achieve just by getting away form the draconian system that they currently support? thats a horrible example, the middle class and povtery level would only hurt from that and it would cause more government reliance for section 8, welfare and unemplyment because since the job makers are getting the living snot taxed out of them it is going to hamper their business decisions and that means cut backs. HAHAH come on man, this is exactly why you're not at greenspan level and indeed the 'vagabond'


[edit on 27-12-2006 by ape]

I think the above quotes ended the debate, have a great day and good luck in the future!

I have spent enough time and effort into spreading the word about fair tax, it will come eventually and people with common sense realise the benefits, the socialist and liberals and neo cons will hate this but it will eventually pass, I suggest doing some deeper research as even a simple old ATS poster easily destroyed your argument vagabond, ' the ape ' does this kind of stuff though. honestly if you're going to want a future in politics i suggest understanding how the current tax code works and our current system before you decide to embark on liberal policies, unless of course you have a liberal socialist outsourcing agenda, because in the end thats all your 'solution' would end up doing, income taxes are a horrible unstable source of income and only discourage business and economic growth.

taxing income is not what our founding fathers proposed for us, we keep what we work hard and earn, This will bring us back to our founding father’s original tax plan with its checks and balances controlling the reckless spending and borrowing of Congress.

Here are a few very real things that I could do, if I was the President of the United States, to make this country richer. First thing is to breakup the Federal Reserve because it has nothing to do with the Federal Government itself. After the breakup, have the Department of the Treasury oversee all the money and print the money that is in the system here in the states. To ensure that the 'Federal Reserve' is broken up, have the Secret Service investigate to see if there had been any money laundering in it's existance.

Second thing, any business that illegaly sends American jobs overseas shall be taxed to the full extent as to what the law will allow. If these corporations still send the jobs overseas, they shall recieve fines in the tens of millions of dollars a day until they comply. If they do not comply on the third, and final, warning. The heads of that company from the CEO all the way down to the Public Relations director will be jailed for a period of twenty five years.

As for the companies who bring in illegals to work here in the states without getting a permit for those workers will be punished also to the full extent of the law also. I might add that there will be no third warning for that offense. It will be you get rid of those workers or the government will takeover the company. Along with the takeover, the heads of the corporation will be jailed for a period of twenty five to thirty years and will be fined in the tens of millions as a person, and the company will fined hundreds of millions of dollars before takeover.

Third thing, I would do is tax the wealthiest of persons in the country based on one condition. That is if the weathy donate ten percent of what they make to any charity, they will only be taxed for ten percent of what they make in a year. If a wealthy person is shown not to have donated money to a given charity, then they will be taxed thirty to fourty percent on the dollar. When those taxes are collected, the money that is collect will go into larger tax refunds for the middle and upper middle class. Not only that, some of the money collected will also go into the treasury to relieve some of the deficit that has collected over the past six years due to the Bush Administration.

The biggest thing I would do is tax the oil companies millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars, if they do not comply with find a cheap and efficient way to make biofuels that will help clean the air and water.

[edit on 12/27/2006 by gimmefootball400]

Ape You just got a 'way above vote' from me. People need to learn about Fairtax. The benefits are epic!

Hopefully our polticians wont find some way to muck it up. But here you go.

For those who still dont know the benefits of a fairTax and what it will do for america...

How would you like to keep one hundred percent of everything you earn? That is one hundred percent of your paycheck, your savings interest, your inheritance, your winnings and any money given to you from a benefactor. How much would you like never to have to worry about tax laws, deadlines, audits, penalties and punishments? Imagine a world where April 15 is just another day of the year… won’t that be wonderful?

It will soon come to pass. Some day in the not so distant future we will all benefit from the passage of the FairTax Plan (HR 25/S 25). Once this piece of legislation becomes law the United States will experience an economic escalation that is unprecedented in history. Imagine the cost of living actually moving downward! Envision fuel prices falling and the prices for everyday consumables lowering back down to sixties proportions. How about being able to have mortgage companies actually compete with low prices against each other?

With the FairTax in place we will see incredible job growth. There will be hundreds even thousands of jobs that foreign companies will be bringing back to America. It will be poetic justice when Asian companies start building “call centers” all over the USA. We’ll see Japanese, German, Chinese and even Mexican manufacturers moving into the USA to save huge sums of money while providing Americans with jobs-a-plenty.

Our farmers will actually be able to cultivate their lands knowing full well that their family business will stay in the family and not be sucked dry by the banks. There won’t be any need for tracking thousands of expenses just for tax purposes. When the patriarch passes away his family will be able to keep the farm because there won’t be anymore inheritance taxes. In fact, farming will become highly profitable again.

The FairTax will equally lessen crime and make criminals pay taxes from their illegal income for the first time ever. Because when crooks buy with their ill gotten gains they’ll be paying taxes on their purchases. For the first time ever, illegal aliens will also pay taxes despite their “under the table” cash income. Most of the lobbyists on Capital Hill will have their power brokerage decreased because tax “favors” will no longer be used to garner corporate political clout.

I have just touched the surface on all the inconceivable benefits that are going to be reaped once we make our political leaders realize that we want and need the Fairtax. The United States was always the world’s model for economic prosperity…that was up until the mid to late 1990’s. Then somewhere in that decade we fell behind several other nations. With the FairTax enacted, we will once again become the world’s economic trend setter and employment magnet.

It deffinatly has a nice ring to it. Fair tax

[edit on 033131p://333 by semperfoo]

thanks semper, seeing as we both are americans this would benefit us both greatly especially our familys and kids ( if you have any kids ) fair tax will save this country and simplify our tax code with 146 pages instead of over 60,000 !! unleash the beast which is the american investor and worker. people who disput fairtax have not looked at everything or they have a globalist outsourcing socialist liberal agenda, all of the actual smart people who have debated fairtax have gotten their ass handed to them on a silver platter and im not talking about blogs or forums im talking about public figure heads, this subject is being debated as we speak, with more people coing on the side of fair tax.

Second thing, any business that illegaly sends American jobs overseas shall be taxed to the full extent as to what the law will allow. If these corporations still send the jobs overseas, they shall recieve fines in the tens of millions of dollars a day until they comply. If they do not comply on the third, and final, warning. The heads of that company from the CEO all the way down to the Public Relations director will be jailed for a period of twenty five years.

this is border line fascism, the reason american jobs are going overseas is because of the brutal tax system we currently have, what the hell do you thik companies setting up shop overseas is illegal? everyone has a right to make a profit whatd o you think capitalism is? fix the damn system dont make it worse by becoming a communist. fining them in the tens of millions of dollars wont do any good either because whatever they do have invested in the US ( usually involves jobs within the community and raised prices on goods ) would be cut back therefor hampering the economy. you see when they say tax the rich they are talking about corporations among others, when they tax the corportations they tax the profits and the individuals who run them only, and believe it or not the term 'wealthy' in regards to taxing income in this country is a very broad defenition.

you also dont jail people because they try to advance and make profits, you enable them to make profits to invest more into the nation and infrastrcuture because corporations are not exactly evil, if you take a look at alot of charities US companies and foreign donate alot and one would think if you enable them and the people who work for them to prosper they would only invest in bettering the community and the people who invest in them and with them without having to deal with all of the crap and the IRS. it would actually be profitable to produce in the US.

yo semper fair tax is the onyl solution I can see that would enable the US to continue dominating the 21st century which is slipping away from us, it would especially quell the EU growth as we would actually be taking away their industry along with chinas and everyone elses, the EU socialist and liberals and current form of government wouldnt allow such a thing like fair tax to pass, we should consider ourselves lucky. peace

[edit on 27-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 27-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 27-12-2006 by ape]

ape

I agree with you all the way my friend. This is for the betterment of our great and proud nation. It would seem to be the only logical way out of the current mess we find ourselves in in the world today. It sorta has that ''one shot to get it right''feel about it. Most world economist are jumping on the fairtax bandwagon for the US. I think they have a lil better insight on the subject especially when compared to all the neysayers who think they do.
Like I said, hopefully the powers that be dont mess this up for us.

[edit on 013131p://444 by semperfoo]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
So what you're saying Ape is that the fact that I'm on ATS somehow limits my intelligence to a certain level, right? Afterall, publication makes you smarter. A book or magazine article from a washed up old hack who has devoted years of research and education to selectively choosing the facts best suited to their ideological end is necessarily of greater qualification than what somebody expresses online, always, right?
You're letting the zeitgeist push you around, and I don't recommend that. Right now, it's easy to make the superficial decision- I must not know as much as John Linder and other propoents of the "fair tax" because I'm just some college student you heard from on the internet and they are congressmen, authors, self-appointed experts, academics, whatever. But 12 years from now, who's to say I'm not a Ph.D and/or a senator? Then all of a sudden this isn't just some contrary response from a dude online, but one of the early works of someone just as credible as your false authorites. So don't be superficial and you'll have less trouble adapting to changes that time brings.


I hate to burst your bubble, because I have observed that people have A LOT of fun assuming that I live in a cave, but you're not the first person to post this fair tax nonsense. Assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about around here is usually not a safe bet. I'm a very curious person and I hate going outside- this means that I do more reading than any three people you'll ever meet.

The "fair tax" proposes to link taxation directly to consumption, in theory progressively taxing the wealthy and providing the poor and middle class a greater degree of self-determination by making frugality a legal mechanism of tax reduction, thus empowering them better to save up to advance themselves by through ownership. By not taxing capital gains or corporate earnings it encourages investment and the creation of jobs. This sounds great for the common man.

There are hidden flaws.

First and foremost we must address the juvenile simplicity of the prebate idea. It hurts everyone who earns and consumes over 20,000 a year. If you make more than twice the poverty level, a prebate of the tax rate times the poverty line is always less than the tax rate times the amount of non-prebated consumption. The president's advisory committee projects that only people earning under 15,000 or over 200,000 would benefit. Greater wealth would be concentrated in the hands of those who could not possibly consume as much as they earned and more wealth would be taken away from those who have to consume what they earn to get by but are not in poverty. I find it laughable that the suggestion that we raise taxes on the middle class and give tax breaks to the extremely wealthy could be called progressive.

Then there's the supposed guarantee of revenue neutrality.
By encouraging saving, the tax necessarily reduces both consumption and prices in America, making current numbers invalid for computation of a revenue-neutral national sales tax. It is also worth noting that because the numbers used by Americans for Fair Taxation count taxes paid by the government on purchases, in essence suggesting that you make money when you pay yourself, they have artificially lowered the number. Then of course there is legal and illegal evasion to consider. The preference for buying used or going DIY would further shrink the tax base even before the very real possibility of smuggling is factored in, and that IS a very real possibility given the state of our borders. For that matter, what is to stop a Mexican retailer from buying goods made in America, unpackaging them, bringing them back under the protection of NAFTA, and selling them as used at a swapmeet or second hand store? That would basically be legal. The Report (pdf) from the president's advisory panel on tax reform does not document any accounting either for changes in demand or the essentially legal smuggling loophole I just explained and therefore even its dire assessment is probably light.
The only way to square things then is a rate increase, but each rate increase triggers new drops, and we only stabilize when people are down to the bare necessities that they can't afford not to consume.

Now let us consider the kind of economy we build with a tax policy like this one.
It creates an incentive to export by offering the ability to sell tax free abroad and by encouraging savings, thus depressing demand and forcing domestic prices down. To sell in America, you have to be willing to reduce your price to accomodate the price raise created by the tax, and to convince the consumer that he can afford your product and still pursue things such as home ownership which have been newly opened up to him. The American market's ability to remain lucrative enough to attract all of the products we want at the quality to which we are accustomed becomes almost entirely dependent on other markets not having the purchasing power to "outbid" us as it were.

In the worst case scenario, we would be dependent on the willingness of investors to take risks for lower rewards to expand business enough to meet American demand as well, otherwise we would necessarily be limited to the wares of companies that couldn't gain enough of a foothold in other markets. This creates a supply-side price increase on whatever of the best stuff does make it to America and the days when a working stiff could aspire to put in enough overtime or earn enough promotions to afford a corvette or other such thing will be over. In other words it force the average American into subsistence very much the way socialism would, allowing him a decent home and the necessities but robbing him of grander aspirations and thereby reducing the incentive to work harder, pursue higher education, etc. This in turn disadvantages American industry of course by ensuring that the incentive to build oneself to the best and brightest is greater overseas. The spreadsheets will look great because we'll be producing but we won't be the innovators, or the hard workers and we won't be setting the pace anymore.

In short, the "fair tax" combines the worst aspects of communism and capitalism- it creates a widely egalitarian society where the bottom 90% of wage earners live essentially the same regardless of income and get the things they really need, if little else, while the wealthy get richer than ever and are free to take that money overseas for business or pleasure, where they need not be concerned with the wretchedness of the common man.


So, as I said, your "fair tax" proposal implicitly reduces our infrastructure and the motivation of our labor force, with the goal of fighting with poorer nations for production jobs whose output simply isn't valuable enough to be worthwhile to us. What we need to do is streamline the existing income tax system, make it truly progressive, and put our money into the infrastructure of innovation and higher technology to create the jobs worthy of American labor.


Incidentally, although I have been through your links, it doesn't pay to throw links around without an argument in your own words. It begs the question, did you read the friggin thing?

The mere mention of Hamilton, the rat of whom Patrick Henry spoke when declining to attend the constitutional convention, in the beyond the basics section should be a dead giveaway if you know your nation's history.
The man was an elitist thug who apparently saw democracy as an expedient front for plutocracy, and I am highly suspicious of any economic policy for which his words can be invoked.

Pleasure meeting you ape, see you around.
signed, Aaron Burr.

so much misinformation in 1 post i could even comment instead had to make another post, I cant believe I didnt adress this.

first of all your posting outdated information that has already been debunked

here have a good read

www.fairtax.org...

the presidents tax panel has already been adress accordingly and they made up their own version of bill HR25, please dont act like you know what you're talking about.

with the prebate the people are getting back the money that was originally theirs to begin with, hence not getting taxed on necessitites, it's hardly communist or socialist as they are not taking away from one and giving to another, they are giving back to one that was originally theirs to begin with while the government still gets funded.

and if you think for 1 minute people would rely on the government for a 'check' then you're insane and you obviously overlooked the links me and semper have provided that would bring massive industry and jobs to the US, all high paying jobs. also the jobs we have here right now will not onyl pay more they will give the poverty level opportunities to invest for an education and advanced their career. you have alot to learn about the benefits of a fairtax, it literally lifts the lower class into strong consumers with strong purchasing power.

come correct or dont come at all please.


so here are some rules of thumb considering your a college kid:

1. dont assume and never spread misinformation

2. dont lecture one who has done his homework and thrives in this economy.

3. dont call fairtax nonsense if you dont pay income taxes in this country like I do, especially when you dont understand the bill.

Second thing, any business that illegaly sends American jobs overseas shall be taxed to the full extent as to what the law will allow. If these corporations still send the jobs overseas, they shall recieve fines in the tens of millions of dollars a day until they comply. If they do not comply on the third, and final, warning. The heads of that company from the CEO all the way down to the Public Relations director will be jailed for a period of twenty five years.

The logical solution is to tax our under-burdened upper class while maintaining the presence of their business by using those taxes to build infrastructure that make America fertile ground for industries in which other nations are not prepared to compete with us.

laugh, this is who said he 'handed me my butt in debate', yeah lets tax the hell out of small business !!!!!

[edit on 25-1-2007 by ape]

[edit on 25-1-2007 by ape]

Originally posted by supercoolferrari
If I'm the president of united states,I could make it more rich.

Here is my way.there are 300 million American citizen in USA.I ask everyone to donate 1 dollar per day.Thus,I could gather 300 million dollar a day.

300 million dollar=300x(one million dollar).I select 300 people everyday randomly,to give them each one a million dollar.Thus,I could make 300 millionaire per day.

300 people is a large number,maybe a town have 300 people.that's saying i could make a town everybody to become millionaire per day.Then,it will be soon all of the American citizen to become millionaire.

How smart i am.

Um there are something like 180,000 towns, cities, municipalities, and incorporated townships in the US. If a town is 300 people then some of those cities count as much as 50,000 towns.

In short your plan of wealth redistribution would take about let's say a VERY conservative estimate of 500,000 days or 1,369 years.

Which is longer than Rome lasted.

I enjoy reading ape's assessments of the US economy and improvements there-to, as opposed to Vagabond which no offense on one's intellectual capacity - is like reading MAD magazine.

Your problem Vagabond is your ideology obscures your insight almost to a level of hatred, I was deeply saddened when you referred to a man who went from a poor apprentice to one of the nation's wealthiest individuals through nothing more than business savy - as a "man you want nothing to do with" I of course refer to Alexander Hamilton.

His economic system was very good and perhaps if we kept it the United States today would not be monstrously in debt.

good point frei, vagabond is an interesting individual as he ignores the facts before him, he is also very arrogant and will talk down to one in a 'stellarX' type fashion ( another interesting individual ).

vagabond said
"Now let us consider the kind of economy we build with a tax policy like this one.
It creates an incentive to export by offering the ability to sell tax free abroad and by encouraging savings, thus depressing demand and forcing domestic prices down. To sell in America, you have to be willing to reduce your price to accomodate the price raise created by the tax, and to convince the consumer that he can afford your product and still pursue things such as home ownership which have been newly opened up to him. The American market's ability to remain lucrative enough to attract all of the products we want at the quality to which we are accustomed becomes almost entirely dependent on other markets not having the purchasing power to "outbid" us as it were. "

by vagabond
So, as I said, your "fair tax" proposal implicitly reduces our infrastructure and the motivation of our labor force, with the goal of fighting with poorer nations for production jobs whose output simply isn't valuable enough to be worthwhile to us

fairtax.org...

fairtax.org...

fairtax.org...

fairtax.org...

here have a good read, I find it funny how you disregard a whole decade and millions of dollars worth of studies and research and the nations top economists.

i really hope vagabond runs across this thread again to adress his advocation of the presidents tax panel.

I would also like to mention vagabond referenced the presidents tax panel report about the fairtax ( ignoring that the panel rewrote billHR25 ) as aummunition against the fairtax. well that only tells me one thing and thats he didnt read the information and links to fairtax.org that I provided for him earlier in this thread before he went on his posturing rampage. the rebuttale to the presidents tax panel was on the website and was released before vagabond used the tax panel as ammunition. this only means he has not done his research on the fairtax and he did not read the material, he does not know what he's talking about, and he is ignorant.

a suggestion, dont disregard fact.





[edit on 25-1-2007 by ape]