End all be all...Russia's Status as a Super Power

Originally posted by centurion1211
Mods, please close this thread. All this guy (stellarx) is doing is posting lengthy rehashes of other threads

So are you the only difference being that you have never bothered investigating or properly supporting your views...

and personally insulting any members that disagree with him.

I occasionally insult ignorance and if you see many insults that could largely be prevented by employing more facts or for that matter anything related to reality.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Wow, Leevi. You really want to look upon the likes of stellarx as a mentor-type? Stellarx, who can't deal with dissenting opinions without resorting to personal attacks?

If you check my record over the last 20 or so months you will quickly note that i am the one responding to the general insult that follows when people disagree with what i present and can not think of any other way to defend their baseless views.. Dissenting views are just fine with me but they should be based on reality and i can not help but point out when they are not.

Who, as we've now seen simply cuts and pastes the same "information" over and over again and out of context to try and make his "points"?

Would you mind providing some instances so that i might help you better understand how what i post is related? If one does not know much about the world things tend to seem unrelated and i am sure i can help by educating you on the issues surrounding what i have presented.

That's the kind of posting you look up to and are proud of? If you ever wanted to engage in any kind of dialogue with me in the future, consider your last post a sign of your complete defeat.

Clever use of the emoticons i suppose....

Oh, you mentioned that you were learning English in one of your first posts. Here's a word you may not have heard of. Check it out.

And i suppose you do not find it striking that you are the one supporting the view most holds about these issues? If anyone displays such behaviour it's most certainly those who defend ideas and 'facts' they have never investigated for themselves.

Stellar

Originally posted by ape
i agree, russia is not even a superpower anymore

By what measure are they not?

and alot of the crap stellar posts is outdated information

Why does the date have anything to do with it? Are nuclear weapons outdated because they were first used in 1945?

russia does not have the money to fund such expensive projects anymore

They do have money and they are spending it on strategic forces and elsewhere even if it's almost always in other places than those pointed out by those trying to paint Russia as 'weak'. Where did they get the money to upgrade their vast air defense networks, nuclear forces and other strategic forces in your opinion? Is it not more logical to presume that they no longer consider their conventional military forces that important in winning the conflicts the envision for the future?

and if they did they would be projecting development and working with other countries like the USA does with its DEW technology.

They have been deploying DEW's since the 70's just like the USA has.

whats sad is stellar believes one can actually win a nuclear war, that alone is an admission of insanity.

Actually it's what the old power brokers in the USSR believed and also what powerful military men in the US believed before their political overseers told them to stop planning to win such and just pretend that it could not. The US had it's own ABM defenses in the 60's as well as relatively extensive civil defenses and a generally prepared and aware nation. The only thing that has changed is that the USSR and Russia kept up it's efforts for four decades while the US abandoned it's own in the late 60's.

Stellar

Originally posted by Hiphar
Why do you have to defend him? His posts have been answered over and over again to be proven wrong by the opposing view,

Sure many have tried to undermine my central ideas but i don't recall any coming close so you will have to remind me with links how you got that impression from reading the hundreds of posts i have made on this general issue.

and all he can do is to repost them over and over again.

I respond to what others type and if they keep repeating lies and general misinformation despite having been corrected in the past i will just repeat the general sentiment with as much new material as i found by that time. The basis of education is after all repetition and if people refuse to learn from their mistakes i will just keep pointing them out.

His sources are junk.

Which one's considering the hundreds i have employed from defense and intelligence journals?

Giving him any more attention than that would be a waste of time

Then stop reading what i have to say; you do not have to believe in reality for it to be so.

So why do I think I am answering Stellar in your post? Multiple posting personalities by the same person on this forum, I believe, are against the rules. If you are Stellar, you should be banned for that reason alone, which I believe you are, and should. So are you going to insult me now?

Talk about paranoid and delusional. For saying something as patently stupid and generally ludicrous you should get laughed at or worse but around here one gets away with such things as long as you defend convention or disrupt those who do not.

Stellar

I however would not doubt that the US would bring it's share of "suprise" to any major conflict. It did hide an entire wing of F-117s for a decade before they were unveiled. Several bases in the Rockies are much more remote and easily hidden than Area-51 has been. Much has been said of the hole digging within the boarders of the US as well. Weapon development within the US outpaces the rest of the world combined, including Russia, whose best engineers are now working for Rockwell and Boeing, just as the former Soviet Bio warfare Kenneth Alibek, M.D., Ph.D is now working for the CDC in Atlanta after the end of the Cold War.

Alot of russian scientist and their familys fled to the US after the fall of the USSR for protection and to get a good high paying job here. So im sure whatever the former russians scientist were working on back in the USSR days is well known by the Americans now.. Let us not forget about the american espionage, which ran especially rampant right after the fall of the USSR. Not to mention that the US had and has been outspending russia pretty much ever since the start of the coldwar. And how about the poor russian soldiers who are selling out russia to make ends meat?.
I read somewhere that before the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia’s military technology was 10 years behind that of the United States; today, it is estimated to be about 25 years behind. These days we spend more on military R&D ($72B) then russia spends on all of its defense industry COMBINED. So you can bet your ass we have some pretty sweet toys. I find it funny how certain russian sites say they have all this stuff that stellarX boasts about as well as the other ruskies here. You would think that if russia did infact have all the above mentioned stuff that they would try to put a tighter lid on it to curb all the speculation. Basically the sites that the likes of stellarX and others post are what we americans would equate to UFO websites that affiliate themselves with the US military. In other words, they are not to be trusted.

America no longer respects russia. We dont take them seriously anymore. (if we ever did to begin with) And for good reason. The russian army is an incompetent force. Just look at the tough time they had against the chechen rebels. (recall afghanistan as well.) There was 100,000 russian soldiers and a few thousand chechen rebels that were COMPLETELY SURROUNDED. they had been bombarded etc, and oddly enough, the poor russian soldiers who were trying to make ends meat were selling the chechen rebles weapons and various other supplys during the whole campaign, which the rebels in turn used to fight the overestimated russian military! Talk about corruption. The russian military proved that they are to be taken as nothing more then a paper tiger. (which in itself, might be a disservice to the actual paper tiger)

The below link is from yours truly, pravada.ru
Russia Has Lost its Army
english.pravda.ru...

The point of the above link is to show some of the ruskies on here that the US is in a league of its own by using one of their own favorite sources, Russia simply does not compare.

America has outclassed you russia. (yet again) Your irrelevant to the world today, thus making your irrelevant to our current situations. We dont respect you. In other words, your not worth our time anymore. Your not in the same league. Get over yourselfs. Enough of the "russia is great" talk. We owned you in the cold war now take your beating like a man and get over it, just so we can get over this stupid thread.

What the hell happened to the original poster? He must have fallen off the face of the earth. Anyways do us all a favor and stop living in the yester-years.



[edit on 032828p://3302am by semperfoo]

[edit on 032828p://3502am by semperfoo]

[edit on 032828p://3702am by semperfoo]

quote]Originally posted by aaaaa
Russian strategists are indeed a cunning lot.

Supposedly a nation of chess players ....

They make it appear as if the country is ruled by a thugocracy of former KGB types,

It is and that can/has been proven with not so much trouble...

www.thenewamerican.com...

www.thenewamerican.com...

www.thenewamerican.com...

www.thenewamerican.com...

reformed-theology.org...

www.sierratimes.com...

www.thefinalphase.com...

No you can't say you were not aware when the %#%# eventually hits American fans.

antagonize every neighbor and country in the world exept paraih states like Iran,

I think the majority of the world hates the US regime more so than the Russian as international poles seems to make quite clear... When last did you even hear about the Russians threatening to invade someone?

let strategic weapons and platform rust away or be deactivated by foriegners,

Some of their strategic weapons have been dismantled but close inspection shows that it's older equipment or platforms that are no longer required to maintain their strategic edge... What does it matter if foreigners comes to dismantle your weapons ( and then only selected one's with secrecy still largely being in place ; just research the issue) and pays for it?

fail to demonstrate successful follow-on systems,

Where have you been the last decade? Which country have deployed entirely new strategic weapon systems?

dismantle conventional forces to the point that a domestic insurgency in Chechnya can not be crushed,

Like the US politicians did not manage the same for the supposedly superior US armed forces? You will be surprised to find what politicians can manage given intent and their wide ranging powers... Imo Chechnya is a sideshow the Russian government does not really want to 'win' quickly the same way the US government has no intent of a quick victory in Iraq.

let public health officials allow an AIDS epidemic to sweep the country,

What AIDS pandemic and what you do know about AIDS anyways?

make life so miserable that population declines due to alcohol abuse and abortion,

The French population was in decline in the late 80's or early 90's and they still seem to be going. The Russian population is most certainly not declining because of alcohol and abortion....

confiscate investment capitol they invited in less than 5 years ago, assassinate dissidents, need I go on?

So why are they called friends by the US government of all governments? Should the US and allies not have learn what happens in Russia and why do they keep investing and giving aid when they know it goes into private pockets or into the military industrial complex?

That anyone could see strength beyond oil reserves here is delusional.

I think the opposite is far more accurate....

Anyone that needs proof from sources can read the Economist, instead of quoting some kook internet site that have been predicting the imminent collapse of the U.S. and western economies since they were first posted.

What 'kook' Internet sites have i in your opinion employed and what gives you the idea that i do not read the economist? The US economy should have collapsed back in the 70's and since then the pyramid scheme it's based on has just expanded to include ever larger parts of the worlds population. As with all such schemes it can not last and American military power is just not expanding fast enough to guarantee the effectiveness of the scam for much longer.

Russia is still the Potemkin village of Catherine's time, in the 21st century.

With nuclear weaponry and the capacity to apparently extort endless supplies and currency from the west.

Originally posted by aaaaa
Bluff and bluster have always been the two greatest weapons of Russia.

Not always but back in the 50's and 60's it certainly helped as US politicians made sure that all the lies were believed when it served to strengthen the USSR.

To the extent thier alliance with Iran has produced anything, it's the familiar "we have this fantastic weapon that does everything" B.S.

There really are no fantastic weapons and some people are just paranoid crazies like for instance the American secretary of defence Cohen.

"Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.

A: Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important.

DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen

The fact that these weapons are logically large and can not be deployed by terrorist is not mentioned and i guess we should all just assume that OBL built it in one of his many caves while sending the plans to the Iranians mullahs he loves ( not at all as i understand) so much. Which nation on Earth has the conventional and nuclear weaponry generally equal to the US so that it may deploy such weapons without the US being able to annihilate it for such overt attacks?

the mullahs are trying to tell western press sources they are deploying, same as the fearsome missile defence the Russians claim to have.

They are both weak and the weak love to boast.

The Russians do deploy massive numbers of ABM defenses ( both missile and DEW and probably radar/interferometry) and it's not surprising that they may lend some of the lesser systems to the Iranians with which they have a mutual defense treaty.

Stellar

Originally posted by Iblis
If you have claims to question the validity of the lyrics, and are such a linguist, than post your own translation. I have a [limited] ability to translate Russian, and they are relatively close.
And a good pun on the old Beatle's song.

Talk about off-topic!

In other news, the annual report of economic freedom was recently released, and can be viewed either online, or in table-format in this month's The Economist. Russia is, if I recall, in the last twenty of roughly one-hundred fourty nations listed.

Not surprising as the country and industry is still mostly being run by former KGB/FSB or 'communist' ( not that they really were but anyways) stalwarts.

--Again, please remain on-topic. The economic status of either nation, unless you directly tie this to a program relating to Super Power status, is entirely without argument or reason for being.

It's quite obviously related considering that one must have some form of economy and production/technological capability to exercise the type of control they seem to be.

Further, either material would do. Weapons-Grade Uranium is none-too-harmful by itself, especially if all-ready wearing the weather-clothing many Russians regularly adorn. Unless you have a quantity currently going critical, or supercritical: Glass, clothing, and most fabrics are sufficient protection against the radiation emitted.

Very much so and if you keep small quantities around for longer durations you will probably be healthier for the experience

And I would ask that we drop the issue of Anti-Ballistic Missle Systems, and leave that to the seemingly-defunct 'Nuclear Preparation' topic.

Why should i not talk about what is so critically important wherever people want to deny the reality of it?

As it is, Russia does have the only current, functional or semi-functional shield, though America has many test-beds, small-scale sites, and Research-Development programs

Russia not only operates the limited system around Moscow but a national system with thousands of missiles and infrastructure giving them the capacity to blunt, if not completely prevent, limited American strikes or even largely negate a land based ICBM strike ( which would not be fired first but their firing would indicate the start of a full scale nuclear war) by the US.

The US did operate a large scale ABM system in the 60's but it was dismantled for political reasons thus ensuring the added deaths of tens of millions of Americans.

Further, and please, again, bring this to the other thread -- If you detonate, let us pretend, twenty-megatons above Moscow -- Most likely more in a full engagements, won't the populace be fairly irradiated?

I think i will do it here as those who are disagree with what i present( but rarely with the evidence for lack of any substantial objections) generally seem to have very short , and limited to what they want to read, attention spans.

The vast Soviet network of shelters and command facilities, under construction for four decades, was recently described in detail by Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci.The shelters are designed to house the entire Politburo, the Central Committee, and the key leadership of the Ministryof Defense and the KGB. Some are located hundreds of yards beneath the surface, and are connected by secret subway lines,tunnels, and sophisticated communications systems. "These facilities contradict in steel and concrete Soviet protestations that they share President Reagan's view that nuclear war can never be won and must never be fought,"Carlucci said (Ariwna Republic, April 3, 1988). These facilities reveal that they are preparing themselves for just the opposite." The shelters are also protected against chemical warfare agents, and stocked with sufficient supplies to allow the leadership to survive and wage war for months.In contrast, the limited US shelter system begun in the 1950s has mostly been abandoned."To have something comparable, we'd have to have facilities where we could put every governor, mayor, every Cabinet official, and our whole command structure underground with subways running here and there," Carlucci said. "There's just no comparison between the two."

www.oism.org...

Peter Pry, a former CIA analyst and author of a new book on Russian nuclear operations, said the continued construction of the Russian strategic defense sites is ominous and cannot be dismissed by U.S. officials as "inertia" from Cold War-era strategic policies. "It shows they take the threat of nuclear war so seriously that they're willing to spend scarce resources on it," Mr. Pry said, adding that he was not familiar with the CIA report. "These things are tying down billions of dollars in rubles that could go into other enterprises the Russians need - for example, providing housing for Russian military officers." Mr. Pry said Russian press reports say the underground facility at Yamantau Mountain covers an area as large as the Capital Beltway.

www.globalsecurity.org...

This dispersal plan had a huge impact on city planning in the Soviet Union. When new cities were built, they were planned as dispersed cities with suburban populations instead of centralized towns (see above).
Changes to existing cities included constructing wide streets, artificial reservoirs, and a network of highways around the city, as well as reducing building density to reduce the possibility of blast and fire damage.
The Soviets, therefore, assumed that they would have enough advance warning of an American attack to implement the aforementioned evacuation and dispersal exercises. Through the use of these removals, pre-attack warning systems, and improved city planning, Soviet military leaders hoped to reduce the number of civilian and economic (industrial) losses.

here

The survival of the Russian leaders neither guarentees survival of the Russian state, nor of its government.

But they certainly seemed to have a better change of survival...

This is not a topic discussing United States military and economic conditions. Absolutely no-one here has provided comparative evidence anyway -- So the discussion is moot. It neither belongs, nor has been properly debated.

I have provided comparisons on a number of issues in the past and have even provided links to those threads ...

Let us bring this back on-topic, as UK Wizard has politely requested.

Funny when topics are considered, at least by some moderators, off-topic and when not.

Stellar

[edit on 9-2-2007 by StellarX]

[edit on 9-2-2007 by StellarX]

Originally posted by Hiphar
Just ignore the nostalgic communists.

Agreed as i think communist or any form of institutional state organised socialism is a very bad idea indeed.

Encourage them to go back to RU forums and leave the intellectuals free from their ignorant input.

Intellectuals? Here?

Their world has collapsed around them and illusions of their former strength are all they have.

I can assure you those were not illusions of strength and that it never really collapsed in any meaningful sense.

Like a fish flopping around in the bottom of your boat, they are now harmless and out of their element, and out of power.

So the fact that Russia and it's former republics are still firmly in KGB/FSB hands completely escaped you like it has most other lay people? Maybe reading the following articles might help you see what i have.

www.thenewamerican.com...

www.thenewamerican.com...

www.thenewamerican.com...

www.thenewamerican.com...

reformed-theology.org...

www.sierratimes.com...

www.thefinalphase.com...

I have added leevi to stellar on my ignore list.

Thank you.

There is no new information or ideas being presented, just rehashed old material and blind patriotic rage at the loss of power and prestige.

Im wondering how well you read if those were your conclusions as i almost always present new information even if i use some of what i have before. Patriotic rage?

Besides, if you argue with a moron there is a chance that others might not be able to tell the difference.

It's something i battle with daily but what can you do when you notice so much ignorance being spread by people who have had the opportunity to accept reality and distance themselves from their prior vapid propaganda inspired delusions?

Originally posted by Hiphar
I however would not doubt that the US would bring it's share of "suprise" to any major conflict.

And neither do i even if i will probably be far less 'surprised' considering that i actually do some research and don't just 'hope' that 'my side' has secret weapons with which to defend my liberties they stole. It's good to be hopeful but rather odd to appeal to secrecy and secrete agenda's only when it's suits your bias.

It did hide an entire wing of F-117s for a decade before they were unveiled.

And at that cost the USAF would have been better off with investment in active countermeasures; the Russians abandoned passive stealth for a reason.

Several bases in the Rockies are much more remote and easily hidden than Area-51 has been.

And Russia has no mountain ranges?

Much has been said of the hole digging within the boarders of the US as well. Weapon development within the US outpaces the rest of the world combined,

Evidence other than the normal media hype?

including Russia, whose best engineers are now working for Rockwell and Boeing,

Lets see the list then mister know-it-all.

just as the former Soviet Bio warfare Kenneth Alibek, M.D., Ph.D is now working for the CDC in Atlanta after the end of the Cold War.

That's one name and I'm waiting for the names of the tens of thousands of others that would now have to be working in the US, and disclosing state secrets, to make any difference to the balance of power. Why is it assumed that because someone now works for a new paymaster they will disclose , or for that matter that what they claim will be acted upon if it's simply not believed, state secrets that could get them a fatal dose of plutonium or the like?

Why don't we for instance assume that many if not most are working and spying for their masters under threat of death? Why automatically assume that these private institutions will use Russian scientist and or engineering talent to act in America's interest when the work of great American scientist and engineers were sold or given to America's enemies while their implementation were prevented at home?

Stellar

Originally posted by semperfoo
Alot of russian scientist and their familys fled to the US after the fall of the USSR for protection and to get a good high paying job here.

Protection? Fled? Evidence?

So im sure whatever the former russians scientist were working on back in the USSR days is well known by the Americans now..

Logic involved or any facts at all? Why assume they were not aware before or do you assume that American scientist and engineers/defense intelligence specialist are such complete idiots? I have NEVER said that these things were not known or understood by at least very many specialist in their respective fields and only maintain that the public and most of the establishment flunkies are apparently not.

Let us not forget about the american espionage, which ran especially rampant right after the fall of the USSR.

The US intelligence agencies were penetrated at almost every level but such was never true for US intelligence in the USSR then or Russia now. That is at least what the historic declassified records shows us and all i have to go by.

Not to mention that the US had and has been outspending russia pretty much ever since the start of the coldwar.

Spending more money and resources are now suddenly a measure of effectiveness? I thought human wave ( i suppose throwing money is somehow considered different; without much merit i would add) attacks were not something the US aspired to? Please show me where there is the slightest evidence that the USSR employed it's base resources less efficiently than the US did.

And how about the poor russian soldiers who are selling out russia to make ends meat?.

Based on what?

I read somewhere that before the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia’s military technology was 10 years behind that of the United States;

In which fields as they had a apparent massive lead in direct energy weapon and general energy related fields?

today, it is estimated to be about 25 years behind.

By who?

These days we spend more on military R&D ($72B) then russia spends on all of its defense industry COMBINED.

Which is evidence of what and how on Earth can that be called a fact when their defense spending is classified? What is the exact math employed that proves that spending 'more' ( dollars i suppose) is somehow evidence of getting more return on investment than in those countries who can spend only a tenth for instance?

So you can bet your ass we have some pretty sweet toys.

I think you do but i am not dull witted enough to assume that that is not the case for Russia or China as well...

I find it funny how certain russian sites say they have all this stuff that stellarX boasts about as well as the other ruskies here.

I do not boast as i site defense and intelligence sources that suggests these weapons to be real and deployed.

You would think that if russia did infact have all the above mentioned stuff that they would try to put a tighter lid on it to curb all the speculation.

How? Send KGB assassins to people who use open source material as support for their ideas/theories about the world? Just don't bother calling me paranoid as it's evident to me who's having the real problems....

Basically the sites that the likes of stellarX and others post are what we americans would equate to UFO websites that affiliate themselves with the US military. In other words, they are not to be trusted.

Bah!

"Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.

A: Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important.

DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen

Clearly a conspiracy website with just another ranting nut!

America no longer respects russia.

Well Bush seems to like Putin just fine and says that "he has looked into his eyes" and saw that he could 'trust him' or something like that. I find it funny that people like you so loudly proclaim to understand international affairs when you do not even have a grasp of factual material one should base such speculation on.

We dont take them seriously anymore.

"we", even? I suppose that national missile defense and upgrades to American ICBM forces are directed at China? The only thing not taken seriously here is reality and you really should investigate it before making any more grand claims about the supposed state of the world.

(if we ever did to begin with) And for good reason.

You will find few intelligence/defense specialist that thought the US armed forces were going to last much past six weeks in Europe and even less that thought the US could or would win a nuclear war.

The russian army is an incompetent force.
Just look at the tough time they had against the chechen rebels. (recall afghanistan as well.)

The American army is a incompetent force. Just look at the tough time they have against Iraqi rebels. (recall Vietnam as well.)

I don't believe that but it's obviously true by the standards you seem to employ.

There was 100,000 russian soldiers and a few thousand chechen rebels that were COMPLETELY SURROUNDED.

Oh really! Pray tell us in which fantasy reality this all took place as i recall it going quite differently...

they had been bombarded etc, and oddly enough, the poor russian soldiers who were trying to make ends meat were selling the chechen rebles weapons and various other supplys during the whole campaign, which the rebels in turn used to fight the overestimated russian military!

Sounds interesting so lets see what source material you base this all on.

Talk about corruption.

New aircraft carriers and stealth attack submarines to fight 'terrorism' sounds more corrupt to me but then my view is probably biased in some way. Selling weapons for money is not something US personal/intelligence/armed forces have ever done either...

The russian military proved that they are to be taken as nothing more then a paper tiger. (which in itself, might be a disservice to the actual paper tiger)

There is not much soldiers on the ground can do when they are set up to never be able to quite win the wars they are forced to fight....

The below link is from yours truly, pravada.ru

Russia Has Lost its Army
english.pravda.ru...

Since when do i like pravda as a source?

The point of the above link is to show some of the ruskies on here that the US is in a league of its own by using one of their own favorite sources, Russia simply does not compare.

Compare to the US army that is losing a war against a enemy that is so badly organized that it has not been able to engage larger American formations? If you for one moment think the Iraqi resistance is on par with the Chechen one you are sadly mistaken and have not done the reading you should have.

America has outclassed you russia. (yet again)

By what measure exactly as it's economy is based entirely on terrorizing third world nations? What could Russia manage if it decided to employ similar methods?

Your irrelevant to the world today, thus making your irrelevant to our current situations.

Tell that to Europeans who are so depedent on Russian strategic resources...

We dont respect you. In other words, your not worth our time anymore.

One does not have to respect the enemy to lose the war as has been well established in the historical records of the world...

Your not in the same league. Get over yourselfs. Enough of the "russia is great" talk. We owned you in the cold war now take your beating like a man and get over it, just so we can get over this stupid thread.

Well all i will point out is that US policies played no part in the change of form in the USSR in the late 80's as is admitted by the American officials who were actually supposed to be in charge of such programs.

Stella

[edit on 10-2-2007 by StellarX]

Originally posted by semperfoo
Heres an interesting read. The professors from Notre Dame and UPenn claim the US has enough nuclear superiority over Russia and China to destroy their nukes in a first strike, leaving no nukes to Russia or China for retaliation. Check it out.
www.foreignaffairs.org...

Since no mention is made of the Russian national ABM system and quite simplistic assumptions is made about the state of the nuclear arsenal itself i can not take this article very seriously as the authors clearly went to great lengths to assume whatever would be required to paint the picture they had in mind. The movement of Russian mobile ICBMs is classified and the authors simply makes no mention of the sources or the reasons they employ towards the statement that they 'hardly ever patrol' and will not be deployed in times of heightened world tensions. In fact i don't see what qualifies them to make most of the assumptions they have but i guess being political scientist gives them every right to assume whatever they want independent of observed reality. For them the US economic decline is probably somehow completely unrelated to this whole 'nuclear primacy' ( the worlds strongest power apparent lacks the means to ensure it's economic future?) thing with which i can terrorize anyone it wants without apparently suffering serious retaliation...

If you want to defend specific statements they made please present a few as i have read the article numerous times in the past as it is constantly presented by those who don't even know what the authors have chosen to misrepresent. Before you do i suggest you read the following article

www.issuelab.com...

and try discover if any actual defense specialist believes that the US could achieve such first strike success.

Originally posted by semperfoo
I have a question for stellar and his anti American views. And please, if you can respond in a short time frame.

Anti-American EMPIRE views but i have no real problems with the freedoms Americans enjoy or are likely to personally defend when the time comes.

What if an Asteroid were on a collision course with the Earth (never mind which country's instruments detected the asteroid), which country would be expected to take the lead in an effort to destroy or deflect the asteroid?

Well i suppose whoever is mining the moon at this time could use their DEW's emplaced there to steer it away or destroy it? It's the best answer i have for such a silly question so don't get mad.

And which country do you feel has done more for humanity than the US?

It's to broad a question for any certainty but considering how much freedom of choice the US and allies destroyed around the world i don't think any of them qualifies any more than the USSR did.

In terms of what country did most for humanity i suppose Vietnam ranks up there proving that the humanity and it's quest for freedom from oppression is hard to suppress by mere bombs and bullets. Few others nations have suffered so much and deserved it less imo.

That being said i don't see how a objective or 'correct' answer is possible for such a complex question.

Originally posted by semperfoo
Correct-amundo centurion.

Great points.
Russia just isnt much of a threat to america these days.

The are not greater threats and this one is pretty extensive if one does some research...

Some ppl need to get off there soap box and realise it.

I am not creating threads to 'spread the word' and if you do not lie and misrepresent reality i will have nothing to object to and thus no reason to be typing.

Russia has all the toys of a superpower. But lacks the funding to keep that 'superpower' status. Russia is a third world power dressed in a rotting cloth of what once was superpower clothing.

So the toys of a superpower is now no longer enough? Since the American economy is in tatters ( if a true accounting is done Americans should be in the same boat as Russians) can i now call their nuclear and strategic forces 'toys' as well?

Literally!.. Not only is russias space program pretty much irrelevant,

How so?

but how about the russian navy?

As many operational strategic ballistic missile submarines as the US which they most certainly do not require considering their land based fully re-loadable mobile systems. There is nothing 'wrong' with the Russian navy that can not be fixed ( by re mobilization ) if such was required to affect the world Russia's way. What they have operational now is more than enough to ensure that transatlantic traffic can be halted if so required.

Its just one example of the many in which russia has declined rather quickly from superpower to thirdworld. Russias navy is something that has been neglected do to insufficient funding for many years (like much of russias military complex).

If they have money for building new ICBMs and missile defense systems while digging out vast underground shelters i think it's not far fetched to assume that they consider their navy functional in it's current form. They most certainly do not need more missile defense systems or ICBMs and building more of such in my opinion indicates that they do not require a navy to ensure the economic devastation of the US economy; the Chinese and Us government seems to have that well in hand.

With many of russias ships being too much of a hazard to take to the high seas. Thats one of the big problems with russia. The money just isnt there anymore.

Which is a classified matter into which we really do not have much if any insight. Fact is they do still spend large sums of money and if that does not go where you think it should it hardly changes the fact.

Also many former USSR russian scientist fleed to the US after the collapse of the USSR.

Fled? How do you 'flee' from the KGB and state security?

If that was the case dont you think that the americans would know just what the USSR had been working on in its inventory which was previously unbeknownst to the US government?

You are obviously not familiar with what the CIA and KGB are able to do to those that say things they are not allowed to....

Yet another sign of russian engineering at its best....

Or shall I say reverse engineering?!

Why anyone would design something new when others have a generally functional design they could steal is quite beyond me....

( and then from the last post )

What the hell happened to the original poster? He must have fallen off the face of the earth. Anyways do us all a favor and stop living in the yester-years.

He made his point and there is not much to be said if one actually read the material he sites as inspiration for this thread.

Stellar

[edit on 10-2-2007 by StellarX]

Originally posted by Hiphar
Another Russian Soviet Superweapon site, huh?

www.cheniere.org...

Well it's not just Russian super weapons even if they do seem to have built up some kind of comprehensive strategic edge by means of them ...

This is moronic. Either Russians have them or they don't and want us to think they do.

When you actually use these weapons enemy specialist will quickly find out even if you do not do the usual thing and warn them about your new capabilities. I don't see what purpose' secret' ( who said anything about them being a secret to any group but the general public and most lower level 'specialist') weapons serves in blackmail if the enemy is not aware of their potential...

If they do have them they either plan to use them in actual combat in a suprise attack, or they would want to make political gains by declaring they have them, which they have decidedly NOT done with any credibility.

They have not declared that they have weapons "more dangerous than the mind of man can conceive of" ?

Here's that friendly guy Khrushchev telling the world pretty much what i am now and while most apparently never heard it does that make it any less true?

"We have a new weapon, just within the portfolio of our scientists, so to speak, which is so powerful that, if unrestrainedly used, it could wipe out all life on earth. It is a fantastic weapon." Khrushchev, to the Presidium, Jan. 1960

"I'm not looking forward to this trip," Bush said as he toured Alabama and Mississippi and headed for Louisiana. "It's as if the entire Gulf Coast were obliterated by the worst kind of weapon you can imagine," he said.

www.weatherwars.info...

NEWS BRIEF: "Malaysia to Battle Smog With Cyclones"
by Chen May Yee,
Staff Reporter of the Wall Street Journal
Thursday, November 13, 1997, page A19.

"KULA LUMPUR -- Malaysia's war on smog is about to get a new twist. The government wants to create man-made cyclones to scrub away the haze that has plagued Malaysia since July. 'We will use special technology to create an artificial cyclone to clean the air', said Datuk Law Hieng Ding, minister for science, technology and the environment. The plan calls for the use of new Russian technology to create cyclones -- the giant storms also known as typhoons and hurricanes -- to cause torrential rains, washing the smoke out of the air. The Malaysian cabinet and the finance minister have approved the plan, Datuk Law said. A Malaysian company, BioCure Sdn. Bhd., will sign a memorandum of understanding soon with a government-owned Russian party to produce the cyclone."

"Datuk Law declined to disclose the size of the cyclone to be generated, or the mechanism. 'The details I don't have', he said. He did say, though, that the cyclone generated would be 'quite strong'. Datuk Law also declined to disclose the price of creating the cyclone. But, he said, Malaysia doesn't have to pay if the project doesn't work."

WSJ-Malaysia to Battle Smog With Cyclones

Malaysia is to use Russian rain-making equipment to clear the haze which has covered parts of south-east Asia for many months.

The rain machine is designed to produce high winds, creating the conditions which cause clouds and rain. The Russians say the winds will not damage property or the environment - and the Malaysian authorities will only have to pay if the rain machine works.

Russia has a long record of attempts to control climate. The latest, in September of this year, involved Moscow's mayor, Yuri Luzhkov. He paid the equivalent of £500,000 to stop rain falling during the day of the capital's 850th anniversary celebrations.

The rain held off, but scientists say it is impossible to assess if the mayor got value for money, or was just lucky, without detailed measurements.

BBC-Malaysia calls in Russian rainmakers

Those who doubt that Katrina, or any other hurricane, could be stopped—or created—can find substantiation in a long-forgotten article by Chen May Yee in the Nov. 13, 1997, issue of The Wall Street Journal.

The article recounts an offer by the Russians to aid Malaysia to create a typhoon to dissipate a pall of smoke that hung over the country—and still does—caused by the burning of large sections of the rain forests in Indonesia and Sumatra.

To quote from the article: Datuk Law Hieng Ding, Malaysia’s minister for science, technology and the environment at the time, said his country “would use special technology to create an artificial cyclone to clean the air.”

The article went on to say that a Malaysian company, BicCure Sdn. Bhd., would sign a memorandum of understanding with a government-owned Russian company to create a cyclone that would cause torrential rains and thus cleanse the air over Malaysia of the smoke and ash.

www.americanfreepress.net...

So it's not like defense and intelligence ( and even some journalist) specialist are not in fact aware of this reality...

Boiled down, that would mean they either are going to sucker puch us, or they are full of BS.

They have been for at least three decades now but since it's just changing weather that can be blamed on ' global warming' ( yeah right) by those that really know what's going on people like you are non the wiser and probably trying to save the environment instead of your own skins.

Given Tesla was in the US, and most of his notes consficated by the FBI on his death, if these weapons truely do exist it would be the US that has them,

The record seems to indicate that the types of technologies these weapons are based on were stolen from US scientist before Tesla's death.

and their secret was easiest to keep since the US has never been in a mortal combat situation as Russia has where such weapons would have been used.

In terms of conventional and nuclear strategic weapons the USSR have had a clear advantage since the mid seventies and a overwhelming one since the early mid 80's.

Anyway, I am tired of people trying to speculate what is behind the classified world curtain, because nobody will admit it if they knew anyway. Jail or death would be likely.

We are after all dealing with open source material here so why pretend that we can not at least adapt our world views to include what they do allow us to know or what gets past their 'guards'?

Originally posted by Hiphar
Now this is interesting.
Conspiricies within the former Soviet bloc are beyond any confirming given their levels of secrecy, so we have to expect the unexpected here.

Really? Why then do we have people such as Anatoliy Golitsyn telling us what will happen in the USSR in such amazing detail? Why does the common man ignore such warnings even if it's pretty obvious that defense and intelligence specialist could not possibly be? I gave some links earlier and i think they speak for themselves in terms of who they were able to fool.

I would not doubt that there might be such a conpsiricy, within Yamantau Mountain complex perhaps where there are many mysteries to the west.

And imagine what they could hide considering their police state and what has apparently been hidden so well in relatively free societies in the west...

Yamantau
SENSE OF CONGRESS ON NEED FOR RUSSIAN OPENNESS ON THE YAMANTAU MOUNTAIN PROJECT.
A Huge Anthill?
The Cold War with Russia is not over.
Moscow builds bunkers against nuclear attack

So who said they do not have money to spend?

What did Churchill say, I think, about the Soviets? "a secret within an enigma within a mystery ..."
Or something close.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma" The former Soviet Unionwas a entirely artificial construct that was sponsored into being by Rockefeller interested at the behest ( i think) of their European sponsors... The USSR only managed what it did because it could almost always count on the west for the aid and resources that the vast construction project and industrialization projects required. Some have said that Russia could have been in much the same position today if kept building on the base it was establishing in the late 1800's but i personally don't think Russia under Soviet rule could have ever measured up to the US without the massive aid it receive from the western sponsors that built it up while undermining US economic and strategic security.

This is something far enough out there that I might believe given historical suprise and secrets and strategic advantages BEFORE the conflict.

Not sure what you mean by this...

Stellar

[edit on 10-2-2007 by StellarX]

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by Hiphar
Another Russian Soviet Superweapon site, huh?

www.cheniere.org...

Well it's not just Russian super weapons even if they do seem to have built up some kind of comprehensive strategic edge by means of them ...

stellar ,hiphar was talking about the soviet superweapon site of ivan krutov

thefinalphase.boom.ru


[edit on 11-2-2007 by vK_man]

First, on the Russian immigration: it is true that alot of Russians had went to US, but alot stayed as well, and many have the capability to go anywhere else but they choose to stay, furthermore, just by personal experience, I see big immigration to Russia from US, and that is just by my experience, alot of my co-workers' and friends' family members live in Russia now and enjoy it, I know many Americans, Indians, East Asians, Africans and even Mexicans who live in Russia...the diversity of Russia's population should say something. I see alot of blacks and asians and middle eastern people in Russia, and it is great, diversity is great, and it also shows that people immigrate to Russia, I mean, they didn't just pop up there magically, I see Russian TV programs on immigration and I see interviews with people who migrated to Russia, for instance, from Mali, Africa, I saw an interview with this black man from Mali, he said he likes Russia alot and enjoys living here. Half of my family lives in Russia, and enjoy living there very much, especially my grandfather who was an officer in the Russian army. I also see alot of Russians who visit US, and I ask them where do they like better, they say for them Russia is better. When I was working at the supermarket, I talked to a Russian couple who said they were going back to Russia, but they lived in US for a while but told me they liked it in Russia better.

While Russia is not at its best today and has alot of problems (and what country doesn't?) it is showing good signs of improvement and growing, which is excellent, I personally have witnessed how life has gotten better for people I know, and I think stuff that you personally see is more important then what anyone says, because anyone can predict, estimate, etc, but it is what you see that is most important.

Russia's military is growing, more soldiers have more modern weapons, old stuff is being trashed, newer stuff is being added, alot of exporting is happening, which is great and gets Russia more money that it needs.

Putin is making new plans for the military and hopefully this will happen soon. The Mig 1.44 has finally taken flight, the first S-400 has already been tested, more T-90s are being produced, soldiers are getting more training, and probably pilots, too, who could definetly use some extra air training, Russias navy has some new toys, and they are working on a new aircraft carrier, I don't know much about that......as time goes by Russia gets better and better,,,soon Russia will be in very good shape, I'm sure.

Stellar X, I too have read that Russia has more rich people then America, unfortunatley they also have more poor people the US, but hopefully that will change soon, and it may already be changing as life is getting better in Russia.

Hey Russian soldier, do you ever see Russia becoming a part of the west? Or will they continue down their own path? I'm interested because I studied Russian history in high school and would like to see Russia unite with the west. I can see Russia becoming a superpower again, mainly because of their wealth in natural resources, but really don't want to see another cold war with them. A US-EU-Russian alliance would be awesome, might even be able to take on the Chinese in 50 years.

Originally posted by ape
i think it's funny that before your last post you had zero clue the US helped russia and gorbachev to dismantle because OF RUSSIAS CONCERNS. now all of a sudden you 'know'?

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that i had ' no idea' as what i said certainly did not indicate as much; fact is i was aware and this is just another cheap shot.

you didnt know anything before you received an education on this forum in regards to the subject and then right after you go into condescending attack mode like usual.

Please indicate what exactly in my post's on that matter indicates that i was not in fact aware of the general circumstances surrounding US aid to dismantle Russian nuclear weapons..

i think it's funny how you have straight forward proof that the US helped russia with it's nuke issue in good faith yet you somehow still manage to take that bit of information and imply the US is idiotic.

It's strait forward proof that the US were knowingly giving the Russians money to help dismantle nuclear weapons while the Russians had money of their own which they employed towards the creation of other strategic nuclear weapons/ or weapons on general

actually it wasn't '(according to the west)' it was '(according to gorbachev)'.

"The Soviet Nuclear Threat Reduction Act of 1991" (Public Law 102-228, 12/12/91, Title II Soviet Weapons Destruction), which stemmed from Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev’s request for assistance in dismantling Soviet nuclear weapons

So he is asking for others to give Russia money to do something they could afford to do themselves had they wanted to?

your postst are the epitomy of ignorance, the US not only forked out cash they sent bodies over there to assist.

Ignorant i might very well be but to prove that you will first have to read what i am actually saying and then actually read the source material your attempting to use in defense of your opinions.

if you're going to try to debate please educate yourself on the subject matter before hand.

I think i am , educated on the subject matter, but since there is always room for improvement i will 'educate' myself some more if you promise to give it a try yourself.

Stellar

Originally posted by Cthulwho
Hey Russian soldier, do you ever see Russia becoming a part of the west? Or will they continue down their own path? I'm interested because I studied Russian history in high school and would like to see Russia unite with the west. I can see Russia becoming a superpower again, mainly because of their wealth in natural resources, but really don't want to see another cold war with them. A US-EU-Russian alliance would be awesome, might even be able to take on the Chinese in 50 years.

I would love to see Russian and US work together to solve common problems like poverty, hunger, etc , and help each other out and be great allies, but a union? I don't think that would be good, Russia is great on its own, and the 2 great powerful countries should work together, oh here is a great pic of Russian nd American soldiers:



Stellar, enjoy your WATS

Russia is a superpower because 1 they have the world's largest nuclear weapon arsenal which 10 times greater than the US, Russia's economy is stronger than the US, BBC news reported this recently. Third they are an energy super giant and their military has been continuing to update in all forces of the 21 century weapons compared to the US and they have every domain of power in ideological, diplomatic and technological fronts. Russia is a superpower because they have the economics, the wealth, the diplomatic power, ideological, technological advances than any other country besides the US, they have the cultural sector and lets not forget their military levels (supreme). The US is on the mist of a recession and several the US government agencies such as NASA are going bankrupt. Russia is on the raise and I main raise, the country is becoming super rich and now are being placed at the 5th fastest growing country in the world. This is many reasons, the US has announced this several times and new agencies such as CNN news, Russia is a Superpower but the USA is still the leader but no longer the sole superpower, it is now 2 Superpowers; Russia and the USA.

Washington Acknowledges Russia as Superpower
www.kommersant.com...

Also Russia is an energy super giant of the world as well.
Russia Super energy power
www.thefirstpost.co.uk...

edition.cnn.com...
www.russiaprofile.org...
www.strategypage.com...

www.warpeace.org...
72.14.253.104...:W9TVovUnRK8J:se2.isn.ch/serviceengine/FileContent%3FserviceID%3DESDP%26fileid%3D7BC1A58B-6D27-B7C1-9CAA-9E2793253D B2%26lng%3Den+Washington+Acknowledges+Russia+as+Superpower&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=25&gl=us
www.russophile.com...

Washington Acknowledges Russia as Superpower
www.kommersant.com...
bhtimes.blogspot.com...

www.spacewar.com...
www.spacewar.com...

Russia Dangerous Superpower (??)
www.cambridge.org...

A Former Superpower Rises Again
www.spiegel.de...

www.spiegel.de...

Russia as a Newborn Superpower
www.weltpolitik.net...:%20Putin %20as%20the%20Lord%20of%20Oil%20and%20Gas.html

Russia: A superpower rises again
POSTED: 1203 GMT (2003 HKT), December 13, 2006
Says Russia was always a Superpower
edition.cnn.com...


www.beliefnet.com...

Does Europe Need Protection?
Two superpowers between Russia and USA over missile shield to Iran
mnweekly.ru...

Russia on the march - again
By Con Coughlin
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 13/04/2007
www.telegraph.co.uk.../opinion/2007/04/13/do1303.xml

Russia - Economic Superpower
lightworker.com...

In the playground of the superpowers
By Harun Karcic
www.atimes.com...

Russia, an obstinate super power
www.martinfrost.ws...

Condoleezza Rice Worries About Russia’s “Assertive Military”
By: Nicole Belle on Monday, October 15th, 2007 at 9:46 AM - PDT
www.crooksandliars.com...

The Return of Russia as a Superpower
current event by VnutZ79 on 13 September 2007, tagged as worldaffairs, politics, and military
www.omninerd.com...

Russia: Rebranding The Nation
Russian flag planted at the South Pole symbolizes the restoration of Russia's superpower status
www.rferl.org...

Russian strategic bombers are resuming regular patrols (superpower confrontation)
www.america-russia.net...


If any of you heard the News on CoasttoCoast radio last night with George Noory, NASA is going bankrupt and does not have the funds to complete the International Space Station as Russia was suppose to complete 40% of the station as they are planning their moon space station for 2015 on top of that. They may either need to help the complete the station or the station will go into limbo without the Russian’s to fix the US contract to finish it. The US Space shuttle is an outdated program that even the X-43 program went bankrupt and the US shuttle is just too expensive. A shuttle that takes a crew of 5 people to operate where the Russia space shuttle can fly unmanned and also dismantle its wings in space and attaching into the space station as a counterpart to the station. The Russians have flow more manned space missions that the numbers are impossible to beat that even the current Soyuz rocket has an 95% prefect record (has flown more than 520 missions). I just find it interesting when Russia was in the down in the 90’s but they still preformed their space missions and building nuclear arsenals but now they regained their superpower status again officially when it is expensive to improve military capability and continue space flights, how did they do it?

Is the Space Station a Money Pit? Russia to for fill Space Station completion contract for US
www.time.com...

NASA a ticking collapse
www.coasttocoastam.com...

The US is on an economic plunge as many of us can admit this, not just housing, high gas prices and bad inflation rates but our country is falling where Russia is greatly improving. You see our problems with immigrations and corporations continuing to outsource for cheaper labor overseas because the US labor is too expensive, we can’t even afford to fix our immigration problems not just the borders but the internal problems. What is unique about Russia is they don’t have an immigration problem at all, everyone who is not a Russian citizen has to have an entry visa, everyone and anything. The US is broken in so many ways it is just a complete joke.

I also wanted to state Russia is completely debt free as they cleared all their past deficits
english.pravda.ru...