JSF and British/American Ties

I would rather Waynos take this up, but I have one point:

The Typhoon's G limit isn't known, but F-35Bs is: 9G. It's not know if the EF-2000 can "survive" even 7G.

Now, i was under the impression the g-limit for most modern aircraft is usually way above that the pilots can sustain. So doing 9g's or 15G's doesn't matter as the pilot will be out for the count, if not dead.

I have already proven it will be. Read my previous messages.

How have you 'proven' anything? all I have seen is you saying it will be better, that is not proof, it is an opinion.

Wrong. The Harrier could serve the AF as an attack plane only because it is a specialised-role-plane. The F-35B is a multirole plane, meaning it will be able to eliminate flying as well as ground targets. Thus, the Squadron that has so far operated the Harriers will now be operating the multirole F-35Bs.

You are quick to proclaim me wrong, and yet you do not even address the question. Strange tactic. Also, the Harrier serves with several squadrons, not just one. The rest of your point in that quote is what I am asking, have you any answers or is it just better because someone you have read on the internet says so?

Why do you think it won't?

I don't know whether it will or not, that was why I asked the question. Do you know the answer? You seem very sure in the rest of your posts.

The producer is still developing it (the F-35B).

And yet you are utterly convinced that it *will* be a superior fighter to the Typhoon. Why? I myself feel it will be a superior close support aircraft that is much better able to look after itself than that Harrier is, but it does not necessarily follow that this will also make it a better fighter than the Typhoon, what are the systems specs?

The Typhoon's G limit isn't known, but F-35Bs is: 9G. It's not know if the EF-2000 can "survive" even 7G.

This is not true, the Typhoons g limits are +9 and -3. If the Lightnings limit truly is 9 then that is already less than Typhoon (but by an unspecified margin). g limits also do not dictate instantaneous turn rate which will be far highter in the Typhoon (unstable design with canards plus, possibly, tvc) than the Lightning ('semi-stable' design with neither feature). The Typhoon pilot also enjoys a unique flying suit that actually allows him to pull 9g without conking out. The Lightning pilot will probably enjoy the same suit but, being a decade later, you would expect that wouldn't you?

Almost X billion pounds has been wasted on the Eurofighter, a European fighter plane that is obsolete. A better and cheaper plane could be bought from the USA.

There are plenty of opinions swilling around, there is nothing to prove that this one is correct. If you remember it was once thought that the F-111 was a better buy than the TSR-2 and look where that got us. I even recall reading that at one time the air ministry was vehemently against buying the Spitfire because it was too complicated, whoops!

[edit on 26-12-2006 by waynos]

merry christmas zibi

Originally posted by waynos
This deserves further investigation as I am not actually aware what A2A systems the Lightning will include. The function of the Lightning in the RAF will be to replace the Harrier, this suggests to me that it will be loaded with bombs, so where will the missiles go? If they are under the wings it isnow no more stealthy than the Typhoon, no?

In the US the function of the F-35 will be to replace the F-16, F/A-18 and Harrier, all of those systems, the latter of course to a lesser degree, are multi role platforms. Which means they have been known to do a bit more than just drop bombs on target. When loaded with A2G munitions the F-35 has room for two internal A2A missiles (AMRAAM, Meteor, ASRAAM, Sidewinder etc...). Currently however in the A2A role it is only configured to carry four AAM's, but it does have room for six. It's just that the issue (for the US) is not pressing enough to peruse that configuration. So while it's persistence may not that big it should not be overlooked either

Originally posted by waynos
Will the Lightning be equipped with CAESAR or PIRATE in RAF service? If not then it is already at a severe disadvantage against the Typhoon in A2A ops, is it not?

The F-35 will be equipped with the AN/APG-81 AESA radar, which in some respects is more advanced than the first generation APG-77 which equipped the Raptor. The F-35 will also be equipped with an EOTS an DAS system, among other things. The links below describe the capabilities and features of these and other F-35 systems better than I could so if you will, have a read.

F-35 Sensors
F-35 Overview (Page 22+) PDF
F-35 (3)
F-35 Design

Originally posted by waynos
Will it have the ability to launch the Meteor BVRAAM at all? What sort of detection system will be installed?

Yes it will. See above.

Originally posted by waynos
I see no reason to suppose a high degree of agility on the type.

Me neither, I suspect it's maneuverability will be slightly better than that of an F-16. However that's not to say that the F-35 wont have some advantages in the WVR arena. Even though this filed is in my opinion less important and will/should be avoided, but I digress.

The F-35 has an all aspect field of view due to sensors on the outside of the aircraft, a much more sophisticated HMDS, the AIM-9X to take advantage of all of this and last but not least, stealth. Due to superior SA the F-35 can position itself (within AIM-9 range) and switch form BVR to WVR without being noticed by the enemy.

[edit on 26-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
...
The F-35 has an all aspect field of view due to sensors on the outside of the aircraft, a much more sophisticated HMDS, the AIM-9X to take advantage of all of this and last but not least, stealth.

If you mean in comparison to the EF, then your quoted website shows no substantial improvement over what the STRIKER helmet for the Typhoon can do right now.

Can that system provide optical (video) as well as electronic coverage thru the airframe? Meaning, using external sensors to "see" thru the fuselage for targeting and tracking purposes.


[edit on 26-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

It can display video and sensoric feeds.

The Typhoon helmet-mounted display is a high-resolution, binocular system driven by powerful processor and graphics modules. Its helmet tracker is a high-speed, high-accuracy, low-latency optical system. The helmet displays "virtual head-up display" symbology and video imagery from the aircraft sensors and from a helmet-mounted, image-intensified night vision system.

www.na.baesystems.com...

What exactly these feeds depict is a question of the aircrafts´ sensors, not the helmet. It is however thinkable that the DASS may be upgraded with a comparable allround feed in the next years should the EO DAS of the F-35 prove tgo be a substantial increase in awareness - which, at this point, I am doubtful of.

Hi Westy,

In the US the function of the F-35 will be to replace the F-16, F/A-18 and Harrier, all of those systems, the latter of course to a lesser degree, are multi role platforms.

Yes, true, but the F-35B in particular is a direct replacement for the Harrier, the least multi role of all of those aircraft. I know the F-35A and C will have very significant BVR capabilities as they are central to the requirement and the planes it will replace have this too, the F-35B is different however, what I'd like to discover is 'how different?'

When loaded with A2G munitions the F-35 has room for two internal A2A missiles (AMRAAM, Meteor, ASRAAM, Sidewinder etc...)

which tends to point to self defence rather than anything else and I will be very surprised if Meteor is carried in these circumstances, ASRAAM or Sidewinder certainly, AMRAAM possibly/maybe.

The F-35 will be equipped with the AN/APG-81 AESA radar,

This is actually a main part of what I am asking, I am sure the F-35A and C will have this radar, but will the F-35B? Even if it does, can we be sure that RAF and RN Lightnings will also have it? I'm not talking about witholding technology, I just mean have we even asked for it or are we going in a different direction altogether? This is why I have my doubts over the UK version as a 'fighter', which almost everyone else seems to be supposing it will be.

Regarding WVR I thunk we are pretty much in accordance, as for the other sensor tech there is a brilliant reply above this one which I need not repeat. But I still don't think the UK is buying a fighter with this plane, in that respect the Typhoon will still be no1 among European air forces.

Originally posted by waynos
Yes, true, but the F-35B in particular is a direct replacement for the Harrier, the least multi role of all of those aircraft. I know the F-35A and C will have very significant BVR capabilities as they are central to the requirement and the planes it will replace have this too, the F-35B is different however, what I'd like to discover is 'how different?'

The only way in which the F-35B is different, apart from the obvious, is that the internal bays are smaller due to limitations since it is a STOVL aircraft. Instead of having two weapon bays rated for 2000 lb class weapons they can accommodate weapons only in the 1000 lb class. However as I said before all F-35's (A, B, C,) have, and will retain, the capability to carry two air to air missiles with any air to ground load. It can accommodate the AMRAAM, Sidewinder ASRAAM etc... again, with any air to ground configuration. Waynos, this isn't my opinion, it's straight out of LM (the F-35 was built around this idea) and it has been demonstrated. MBDA also made a decision to alter the Meteor slightly so that it could fit into the F-35B's air to air internal weapons station, fit checks have even been done.

The UK intends to buy the STOVL version so it makes no economical sense for it be equipped with a US made AIM-120.

The diagram compares the weapons stations on the CTOL and largely identical short takeoff and landing (STOVL) variants of the JSF versus the carrier-based (CV) model that has a larger wing. Note that the bays of the F-35B STOVL variant were redesigned in late 2004 and are now 14 inches shorter, and perhaps reduced in width, compared to the F-35A CTOL model. This decision was made to reduce the weight of the F-35B in order to meet more important performance goals. Otherwise, the following diagram remains accurate.

Each bay contains two weapons stations, as shown above. Air-to-ground stores like JSOW and JDAM are carried on the outboard station. Air-to-air weapons can also be carried in this position but are carried primarily on the inboard station that is specifically dedicated to that purpose. One of the unique features of the design is that the air-to-air station swings out on a hinged rail as the inboard bay door opens.

F-35 JSF Weapon Carriage Capacity

F-35 Weapons Bay Picture



F-35 To Accommodate Meteor Missile

This PDF Document that I liked to earlier shows (near the bottom ) all the current weapons that are planed for integration into each specific version.

Originally posted by waynos
which tends to point to self defence rather than anything else and I will be very surprised if Meteor is carried in these circumstances, ASRAAM or Sidewinder certainly, AMRAAM possibly/maybe.

See above. The F-35 (any version), will always carry at least two air to air missiles as those launches were designed for only AAM's, and not for bombs. And no offense but at least for the AMRAAM it's not 'possibly', but definitely.

Originally posted by waynos
This is actually a main part of what I am asking, I am sure the F-35A and C will have this radar, but will the F-35B? Even if it does, can we be sure that RAF and RN Lightnings will also have it?

Yes, and yes, it is standard on all production models. And no (as far as I'm aware) the UK will not change it, cannot find even a single mention of them doing such a thing.

Originally posted by waynos
Regarding WVR I thunk we are pretty much in accordance, as for the other sensor tech there is a brilliant reply above this one which I need not repeat. But I still don't think the UK is buying a fighter with this plane, in that respect the Typhoon will still be no1 among European air forces.

That I agree with, if the UK wants to use the F-35B as a largely air to ground platform that's their prerogative. And yes the Eurofighter will remain No 1 in Europe seeing as how only the UK is buying the Lightning. All I'm sayings is that F-35 has certain "better" A2A and A2G capabilties than the Typhoon.

Also, speaking of WVR, it's interesting that the F-35B in the only version that has a built in TVC system. Ahould anyone decide to reconfigure the system so that it can be usednormal flight that is.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

Thanks for that reply, high quality as usual westy Of course I have a few points to raise with you, but you will be expecting that

The UK intends to buy the STOVL version so it makes no economical sense for it be equipped with a US made AIM-120.

The AIM-120B and C are already standard weapons with the RAF, which holds fairly big stockpiles of both types. If the RAF chooses to equip its Lightnings with this class of missile instead of IR short range ones then there is no economic reason not to fit them.

The F-35 (any version), will always carry at least two air to air missiles as those launches were designed for only AAM's, and not for bombs. And no offense but at least for the AMRAAM it's not 'possibly', but definitely.

goes with;

However as I said before all F-35's (A, B, C,) have, and will retain, the capability to carry two air to air missiles with any air to ground load. It can accommodate the AMRAAM, Sidewinder ASRAAM etc... again, with any air to ground configuration.

Yes, maybe you didn't quite get what I am driving at. All I mean is that whenever two AAMs are carried with an offensive load (which would appear to be the standard RAF configuration too) then this fact points to these missiles being for self defence only, just as RAF Jaguars, Harriers, Tornadoes and even Nimrods have also carried two sidewinder AAM's (four in the case of the Nimrod) alongside their normal A2G loads ever since the Falklands war.
I can envisage no situation where a Lightning would be sent on an A2A mission with only two AAM's and a hold full of bombs. It was in this respect that I said 'possibly' the AMRAAM as it may not be the most suitable weapon for the task and certainly not the Meteor.

MBDA also made a decision to alter the Meteor slightly so that it could fit into the F-35B's air to air internal weapons station, fit checks have even been done.

But this move wasn't made with the RAF in mind, as we both know the A2A mission will be catered for fully in other models of the F-35 and MBDA is simply making sure its weapon is available for selection for those countries who choose to buy the F-35A on the export market.

Yes, and yes, it is standard on all production models. And no (as far as I'm aware) the UK will not change it, cannot find even a single mention of them doing such a thing.

Thanks for that, I have seen no mention either way and though the RN models will have to retain a good A2A capability in order to carry out the fleet air defence mission, I wondered if the RAF plans to make any use of this ability.

And yes the Eurofighter will remain No 1 in Europe seeing as how only the UK is buying the Lightning. All I'm sayings is that F-35 has certain "better" A2A and A2G capabilties than the Typhoon.

As far as I am aware Italy too will definitely be buying the Lightning and it is still the preferred option at the moment for Norway and Holland, not to mention Turkey.
Regarding capabilities I would say yes absolutely better for the A2G role but as far as A2A is concerned I think it only has superior LO (which can be crucial of course) as far as the currently known models go.

I think I have read somewhere also that as far as TVC goes it would be easier to incorporate this onto the CTOL models than the STOVL version because the mechanics of this variant make in flight TVC impossible, that is only a vague recollection though, I have no source.

Originally posted by waynos
The AIM-120B and C are already standard weapons with the RAF, which holds fairly big stockpiles of both types.

But these weapons will be dated when the Lightning enters service in the UK (~2014), surpassed in capability by the AIM-120D and Meteor. The Lighting will have a lifespan in the order of decades. If the UK goes that route they will have no choice but to keep upgrading the Lightning with long range US made AAM's.

Oh and I just though of something, having only one long range AAM in use is simpler and less expensive, in terms of facilities, support systems, integration, etc...

Originally posted by waynos
I can envisage no situation where a Lightning would be sent on an A2A mission with only two AAM's and a hold full of bombs. It was in this respect that I said 'possibly' the AMRAAM as it may not be the most suitable weapon for the task and certainly not the Meteor.

How about a situation where a Lightning will be sent into A2A missions with four internal AAM's? I mean it will at least be used in that role by the RN for fleet defense.

Originally posted by waynos
But this move wasn't made with the RAF in mind, as we both know the A2A mission will be catered for fully in other models of the F-35 and MBDA is simply making sure its weapon is available for selection for those countries who choose to buy the F-35A on the export market.

I agree with you on that but the UK is also part of that market, the RAF will fit the Meteor on the Typhoon, I'm sure MBDA has the F-35 in mind as well.

Originally posted by waynos
As far as I am aware Italy too will definitely be buying the Lightning and it is still the preferred option at the moment for Norway and Holland, not to mention Turkey.

Turkey - Europe? And in my rush I must admit I totally forgot bout Italy, Norway and the Dutch. Also Waynos, how about this, Greek Typhoons Vs. Turkish F-35A's, uh oh...

Originally posted by waynos
Regarding capabilities I would say yes absolutely better for the A2G role but as far as A2A is concerned I think it only has superior LO (which can be crucial of course) as far as the currently known models go.

I also think besides the LO features, the EOTS suite and radar on the F-35 among some other electrons systems are at the moment more capable than their Eurofighter equivalent.. But maybe thats just me.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

but these weapons will be dated when the Lightning enters service in the UK (~2014), surpassed in capability by the AIM-120D and Meteor. The Lighting will have a lifespan in the order of decades. If the UK goes that route they will have no choice but to keep upgrading the Lightning with long range US made AAM's.

Yes Westy, but none of these are economic reasons not to use missiles you already have. Thats why I said possibly/maybe. I don't see why it gives us no choice but to continue upgrading the Lightning with US missiles, I'm only talking about the possibility of using up old stock that is already integrated with the airframe.

How about a situation where a Lightning will be sent into A2A missions with four internal AAM's? I mean it will at least be used in that role by the RN for fleet defense.

Yes correct. But I was speaking specifically about when the plane was carrying bombs, in this situation the 2 internal missiles are for self defence and are more likely to be IR AAMS such as the ASRAAM.

agree with you on that but the UK is also part of that market, the RAF will fit the Meteor on the Typhoon, I'm sure MBDA has the F-35 in mind as well.

This is what I'm not so sure about. The RN will use it, but will the RAF? For what purpose If they are not using the plane as a fighter? I don't understand the last part of that quote as I'm sure MBDA had the F-35 in mind when they modified the missile to fit it ( )

Turkey - Europe? (yes - waynos) And in my rush I must admit I totally forgot bout Italy, Norway and the Dutch. Also Waynos, how about this, Greek Typhoons Vs. Turkish F-35A's, uh oh...

I'm sure that would be an encounter that we would all keep an interested eye on

I have to say that the full technical capabilities of the CAESAR and the DASS and sensor suites of the Typhoon are classified, as are those of the F-35 so we aren't ever going to settle that one matey

Originally posted by waynos
Yes correct. But I was speaking specifically about when the plane was carrying bombs, in this situation the 2 internal missiles are for self defence and are more likely to be IR AAMS such as the ASRAAM.

Wouldn't the F-35 be better off 'defending' itself with a long range (BVR) missile rather than with a missile like the ASRAAM?

Originally posted by waynos
I don't understand the last part of that quote as I'm sure MBDA had the F-35 in mind when they modified the missile to fit it (

)

I apologize, I meant MBDA had the F-35's in UK service in mind.

Originally posted by waynos
...so we aren't ever going to settle that one matey

Nope, but it's still good fun to reasonably speculate from time to time. As I said before though I'm sure the RN and RAF will try to settle that one in air exercises.