Is Israel Framing Russia/Putin?

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist

Its always Israel that is the "evil" little zionist nation trying to secure a nation for the jews! and to spice it up a bit lets add "ruining the world" too!!

uh huh.. and where in Melbourne militias' post did he say that.. can you quote it for me.

I never said that he said that, read carefully, I am talking about the general trend that these posts take.

Did you even read Melbourne Militias post or did you read the Thread Title and decide it must be anti-semetic.

Actually the General Trend these posts take is exactly what your turning this thread into. Once a criticism is made of Israel, that poster is labeled as anti-semetic and the thread ends up derailed arguing the point.

Israeli Government is fair game for criticism as far as I'm concerned, as is the Government of every other nation on earth.

Originally posted by IAF101
Why Israel of all nations ?

It may have something to do with a certain billionaire who is now cooling his heels in Siberia after trying to illegally sell a large percentage of the Russian nation's resource wealth to 'international' investors.

I think certain elements of the Israeli government have been sore about that ever since. There's also the matter of Russia's material support for Israel's regional adversaries...

You feel that Israel has been manipulation world affairs for a long time? Why is that? Because they are Jewish ???

All capable nations manipulate international affairs, through the use of their intelligence services. Only a fool would think otherwise. The Israelis have a very capable intelligence community, with loads of experience, everything from blackmail to murder, and a range of crimes in-between.

To deny that is foolish. The big boys play the sort of game where morality gets left at the door. There's no sense in pretending that's not the case, or in denying that Israel does, indeed, play with the big boys.

That is quite an anti-Semetic rant you have going there!

Hardly. On a slightly related subject, since when does 'semitic' refer only to the Jews? The semitic languages include Arabic, no? In that case, would you not be a self-described anti-semite?

You feel that Israel is to blame without any proof and just a gut feeling. Also insinuate that the are scheming and up to something! If that isnt the classic anti-semetic rant I dont know what is!! But dont worry about it, this board is sympathetic towards anti-semetics. You shouldnt have any problems here!

You're still here.

As far as I'm concerned, we're too tolerant of hate-mongerers. This community shouldn't have to support people who aren't interested in discussion.

This thread doesn't strike me as something nefarious though. It seems to me that he's questioning the motives of a STATE - not a RACE. Can you not understand the difference between those who take issue with the STATE of Israel, versus those who take issue with JEWS as a people?

I think the Nazis wouldnt find it offensive too and would support it. Maybe even pull out the 'Protocols of Zion' and "prove" their claims!!

What on earth are you talking about? The Nazis would have found what offensive? And what does that load of nonsense otherwise known as the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' have to do with anything?

While we're on the subject, I think the Nazis would fully support the state of Israel, if for no other reason that to get a whole lot of Jews in one place to make them easier to exterminate.

There exists substantial evidence that high-ranking Nazis were occasionally to be found of the Jewish persuasion, and some might even go so far as to assert that moneyed Jews had a hand in the atrocities - some because of horrific notions of racial purity, others out of more practical desires to remain in power behind the scenes.

But that is all normal in a place where it is okay to cast aspertions about a people simply for what they are.

This is so freakin' hilarious it defies description. You're one to talk...

Wasn't it just yesterday you filled page after page with anti-muslim slurs, describing the lot of them as savages, calling them animals, inferior, saying how they ought to be ashamed, how you would be ashamed if you were a muslim?

Now here you are, singing a very different tune. So typical, for people to hate most those things that exist in themselves.

:shk:

A majority( all most all the Jews in the world!) support the state of Israel. Who ever told you contrary has pulled a fast one on you!

Religious Jews have no reason to support the state of Israel. They consider it an affront against God if I'm not mistaken.

And compassionate people, of all faiths, see Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza for what they are - a tragedy.

The people of Israel support their nation and its struggle against the terrorists who bomb and kill its civilians.

Some do, yes, one could even say most. But don't pretend like Israel is a monolithic hive consciousness - the anti-settlement camp and the anti-Zionist Israeli Arabs would most definitely disagree.

You're such an expert on Israel, why don't you give us a breakdown of the Israeli political spectrum. My understanding of it is limited at best, but I know enough to know that the government has always struggled to unite diverse, and often divisive factions.

There are a great many Jews all over the world, and being that they are individuals, they don't often see things eye to eye.

FYI, this isnt about merely disagreeing with Israel, for Israel has done none of what is being purpetrated here.

Have you any evidence to back up that assertion? We're having a discussion here, about possible Israeli involvement in the death of the former operative poisoned by Polonium. You come on here and rant and rave about how we're all anti-semitic, and how this board is anti-semitic, but you have yet to provide one iota of evidence backing up your claim that Israel had nothing to do with the assassination.

It seems to me that you're more interested in providing a distraction than anything else, more interested in derailing the thread and insulting folks than you are in engaging us, or the topic, directly. Why is that?

This is a clear and malicious attack. Recognize the difference.

Thanks to your potent illustration, I think I understand quite well what constitutes a malicious attack. Thanks.

FYI, the brazen slander being passed off here, with no qualification what so ever, employing clearly anti-semtic innuendo is a testement to the insouciant attitude that prevails here condoning such opprobrious attitude.

Slander doesn't apply here - in your eagerness to use big words you've left the right ones behind. Libel is the word you're looking for, and in order for a statement to qualify, it has to claim to be fact. The original poster did not claim his theory as fact, he simply threw a line in the water, questioning, and asked for input.

[edit on 9-12-2006 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 9-12-2006 by WyrdeOne]

Personally Melbourne_Militia, I think that is a crack pot idea (about Israel wanting to bring about WW3 for Christ to return).

And to the person saying China and Russia, bla bla, they may fight in a war with the West, etc. etc. No they won't. China gets most of its money from the West. And it is concerned about economic development first and foremost.

Tata

Quoted by RetinoidReceptor

"Personally Melbourne_Militia, I think that is a crack pot idea (about Israel wanting to bring about WW3 for Christ to return)."

Mate,

we here each have their own ideas and conspiracy theories, and this forum is here for us to express our opinions and facts if we have them, correct?

I have no problem at all with you stating my ideas as being "crack-pot", none at all, that is your opinion and I respect that. As I stating for others to read in my opening post on the topic, this is just a personal gut feeling and under the assumption that the Israeli government had something to dowith it. this is a personal conspiracy theory, not a conspiracy fact for those of you out there who wish to criticize me.

Call my ideas crack-pot, call them loony, call them agreeable if you agree with them, thats all cool, but dont call me anti-simetic for criticizing a theoretical action by a government. Thats just not on, i beleive.

Now back to the origins of this post, and hopefully we are not derailed by others personal agendas here, I'd like you to check out the following links -

www.guardian.co.uk...

The above link deals with the Israel training US assasination squads for Iraq,
thou not directly involved on the ground there I just thought it might be interesting in regards to this post, some may obviously disagree.

Here we go, the following article has hit the nail on the head - i hope IAF101 will find it of value, if he /she may keep an open mind when reading it and make personal ascertions later.

www.lewrockwell.com...

It is about International Assasination Squads. Here is a short opening quote from the document -

"A story surfaced this week regarding Ariel Sharon’s creation of assassination squads that will be sent into allied foreign countries in search of enemies of the State of Israel"

And here is an article about what was mentioned earlier on about jews not supporting but being against the Israeli government and their policies.

www.nimn.org...

Titled "Chicago Jews Condemn Israel's Assasination Policy"

The following might be slightly off topic but I thought it would be interesting here none the less - titled "Israeli Sying - the mother of all scandals"

In regards to high level mossad agents infiltrating US Government. Heres a quote -

"CBS sources say that last year the suspected spy, described as a trusted analyst at the Pentagon, turned over a presidential directive on U.S. policy toward Iran while it was, "in the draft phase when U.S. policy-makers were still debating the policy." This put the Israelis, according to one source, "inside the decision-making loop" so they could "try to influence the outcome." [CBS News] "

Now to conclude, here is a very related topic that may either shed some clues to the reasoning of the Litvinenko murder, and then again may even throw up a whole bunch of new questions concerning the matter.

www.endofempire.org...

Titled - Wayne Madsen on Litvinenko case and heres an interesting exerpt -

" November 27, 2006 -- The poisoning death of former Russian KGB and Federal Security Service (FSB) colonel Alexander Litvinenko, a critic of the Russian government of Vladimir Putin, is being blamed on the Russian-Israeli Mafia by a number of Russian officials. The Russian officials point out that Litvinenko, described as a Russian-Israeli "double agent," was the perfect choice to set up for a false flag assassination just as Putin was attending a Russia-European Union summit in Helsinki. "

" One Russian official told The Sunday Times of London, "If you ask the question who had the most to gain from all this, the answer can only be Berezovsky, a man who by his own admission is out on a campaign to discredit Putin and the Kremlin."

who is the billionaire oil company owner that somebody mentioned previously who had Israeli government ties I beleive, (correct me if Im mistaken) and who Putin tried to silence aswell.

"The involvement of Litvinenko with Israeli organized crime bosses was reported at the same time the Washington Post reported on the counterfeiting of U.S. $100 bills by a South Ossetia-based organized crime ring operating with Russian-Israeli mobsters based in the Republic of Georgia and Israel."

In the end, this all becoming very complex, aswell as intriguing and all I acn gather from the above mentioned articles is that this all threatenes to expose a very large scale of corruption and scandal on a variety of fronts.

Anybody care to comment on the above? I appreciate all your opinions both for and against





[edit on 10/12/06 by Melbourne_Militia]

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Personally Melbourne_Militia, I think that is a crack pot idea (about Israel wanting to bring about WW3 for Christ to return).

It is not for the christ to return but the anti-christ. The masons, Illuminati, and generally the world's elites are anxiously awaiting the anti-christ kingdom to start.

I think it's an interesting, and one that I see as possible,
however, that said, I'm not going to say I think it's what's
happening, but I think it's very possible.

If Israel was hell bent on starting ww3, it would of happened by now.
Iran have been refusing for some time.
Lebnanon and hezbollah occured a while ago..

I think israel have smartened up a bit.. they realise the surrounding nations arent that inferior anymore.

you dont need super technology to make difference any more.
world opinion means a hell of a lot..

I mean jee's, hezbolah fired missles at israel AFTER the cease fire and israel still stood down.

Israel,have finally realised they are in a very bad situation.

lke america.

wow, who'd of thuk it..
joined at the hip in more ways than one.

It's always possible Israel or another nation did this as a false flag operation, but so far all the signs really point to KGB/SVR style. Cryptome has a (slightly old) article alleging the Russian government was behind the Moscow terrorist bombings of 1999, leading to Putin's rise to power.

The four bombs together killed more than 300 people in less than two weeks.

There was a fifth bomb. This one didn’t go off. But the fifth bomb - proved by photographs of its detonator shown above - provides hard evidence that challenges the official ‘Chechen version’ of the Moscow bomb outrages. The fifth bomb points the other way: that the KGB-FSB bombed Moscow deliberately to blacken the name of the Chechens as a pretext for the second Chechen war.

The photographs of a detonator, taken by a Russian bomb squad, and other fresh evidence point to a plot carried out by the FSB working to assist their old spymaster, Vladimir Putin, in his rise to control the world’s number two superpower and its nuclear arsenal.

Source

The entire article is very interesting and seems to show that Putin isn't above killing his own countrymen for more power. There's also evidence he may have been involved in the Beslan hostage situation. Then there is the poisoning of Ukranian President Viktor Yushchenko, the murder of the journalist critical of Putin—who, if I recall correctly, was working on connections between Putin and Beslan when she was murdered—and now Litvenko. Plus a number of others in between over the past few years.

Although Israel has a long history of black ops, false flags and external terror outrages so does Russia.

I can't see that this is Israel's interests - the benefits you cite do seem very remote for Israel to go to all this trouble.

I don't think your post is antisemitic (pathetic defence ) but I think you're reaching a lot! Why not the CIA?, why not China?

The finger points most at Russia - the most to gain, part of a recent campaign and reflects their fetish for esoteric materials / methods.

Applying the classic MMO questions it seems Russia (or Russian groups) are the most likely perps.

[edit on 10/12/2006 by Strangerous]

What would China have to gain?

I think elements of the Israeli and Russian security/intelligence services have the most to gain. Technically speaking, any capable nation could have done it, but it's not probable.

Also, one point that needs to be made, just because 'Russia' may have had a hand in it doesn't automatically implicate Putin. It could have been other criminal elements.

I don't have any illusions about Putin, he's always struck me as a nationalist thug willing to do all that is necessary to restore his country to a position of power.

But it's not like he's the only thug in the region.

Read this post by Hellmutt, it paints a picture of another party with motive and means.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There's also some really good information on this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The rumor going around the conspiracy streets these days is that Israel wants to discredit Putin because he isn't entirely open to capitalism in Russia and that this locks out Israeli interests to a degree. Even though Putin may be an Israeli shill to a degree he is still not firmly committed to free-market economics especially if it can be managed by a remote third party such as Israel or even the US.

The more I read about the Litvenenko death, and the random accusations surrounding it, the more I think there are groups in the UK and the West who know far more about this than Putin or his administration. Berezovsky (and several lesser oligarchs) is an obvious figure of interest, although I wouldn't necessarily tie him or his interests in any way to Israel.

It is no secret that Berezovsky was eyeing the presidency and control of Russia ever since he became a political figurehead in Yeltsin's administration. It is also widely believed that in the 90's he had strong ties with sources in the West (UK, US, possibly Israel), and was possibly being funded through them. He advocated liberalization and open market for Russia- and who else would benefit the most from this other than the US and Western Europe. He was also slowly working to give partial control of major industries in Russia to Western and pro-Western investors. His ingenious capitalist operation collapsed when he and Putin went head to head. Berezovsly basically buried himself because he bet everything he had at stake against Putin, and lost. Khodorkovski suffered a similar fate, with more severe consequences- losing most of his wealth and imprisoned. Unlike Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky didn't "cut his losses and bail", but decided to stay and fight- not a good idea.


So Berezovsky can credibly be seen as Putin's biggest opposition. If someone knows who killed Livtvenenko, it would be him- because he was closest to the guy and his contacts. However the problem with Israel Theory, is that Berezovsky has few ties to Israel. He does have far more ties to UK government, and European "sources" interested in getting rid of Putin's administration. Previously these sources have done what was in their power to discredit Putin and make him look bad at a critical time. The death of Litvenenko indeed coincided with such critical time- the summit in Finnland, where a key energy deal was to be discussed between Russia and Europe.


The success energy deal would have lended a great blow to Berezovsky and anti-Putin sources. Because Russia under Putin and Europe would become more interdependent, European governments and industrialists would have fewer incentives (or even a disincentive) to see Putin and his policies gone. And if you were following the news, the energy talks failed for the most part. That was a crucial time for Putin to remain on the "good side" PR-wise. And the assumed assassination put him on the "bad side".

Believe me- Putin could have Litvenenko killed at any point in time through nearly any means. Why do it at the time of the summit, and through such publicized and extravagant means as polonium.


Whoever killed him got the exact result they wanted- the question remain who gained the most from it? It wasn't Putin. It wasn't Litvenenko. It doesn't seem to be Israel or the US. UK government is more or less impartial. So could it be some obvious interest group within UK or Western Europe? The mock investigation going on right now is just a farce. It is obvious it will come back to exactly the same place where it started, because whoever carried out this trick wasn't an amateur.

Blaming Putin is as easy as it is obvious. But blaming anyone else makes you realize that it could be the very people you have been supporting all this time. People who are playing both you (the West and UK) and Russia (Putin) off against each other for a personal gain.


Why would Litvenenko be liquidated by his own support group? Because he was no longer needed? Because he had mental problems or acted out of his own interests? Litvenenko was waging his own campaign against Putin- a campaign that was a little outrageous (accusing Putin of being a pedophile), and had more to do with his own anger and egotism than with the actual orchestrated campaign to discredit Putin. He had high press coverage, and was known among the liberal media. So his murder would be well publicized.

[edit on 10-12-2006 by maloy]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
It may have something to do with a certain billionaire who is now cooling his heels in Siberia after trying to illegally sell a large percentage of the Russian nation's resource wealth to 'international' investors.

I think certain elements of the Israeli government have been sore about that ever since. There's also the matter of Russia's material support for Israel's regional adversaries...

I assume you are taking about Abramovich.

He did sign a "behind the curtains" deal with Putin's administration, which basically saved him and most of his assets from going the way of Khodorkovsky. But what makes you think that he worked or cooperated with Israel before that. I know he made some donations to Israeli causes, and is a firm supporter of Israel, but most of his business operations centered in Europe and Russia.

Furthermore why would Israel be sore about his deal with Putin. If he went against Putin's policies, he would have either been exiled or imprisoned, and would have lost his assets in Russia either way. Actually what he did was rather smart for him, and the best situation he could hope for. Although he is more or less cut off from possibility of presidency, he can live out his life as a billionaire and make all the donations to Israel he wants.

I think Berezovsky has more do with what is going on now, and he too is Jewish I believe.

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
..................
correct me if Im wrong but I will not profess to know the exact details of it.
................

So tell us, what exactly is your point trying to blame Israel when you yourself say you don't know the facts?....

I can see why some members might see this as an anti-semitic post....

If you want to debate something, first know the facts and then post about it...

Why was it that after 1967 the Israelis took land from Arab countries?....

The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים, Milhemet Sheshet Ha‑Yamim; Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة, ħarb al‑ayyam as‑sitta), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, the Third Arab-Israeli War, Six Days' War, an‑Naksah (The Setback), or the June War, was fought between Israel and the Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. When Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai Peninsula, increased its military activity near the border, and blockaded the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce fearing an imminent attack by Egypt.[1] Jordan in turn attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya.[2][3] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.

en.wikipedia.org...

Arab nations made a blockade and would not allow Israeli ships to reach their ports, what do you think the Israeli govenrment would do stand by and do nothing?.....

Arab nations have attacked Israel several times, and every time Israel have won by themselves...and because such nations have used certain areas close to Israel the Israeli govenrment took over those lands, trying to stop the attacks on Israeli citizens.




[edit on 11-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Maloy
Actually, I was talking about Mikhail Khodorkovsky in my earlier post.

Anyway, I thought your post was excellent - very informative and level-headed. Just the sort of stuff we appreciate and try to encourage.



[edit on 11-12-2006 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 11-12-2006 by WyrdeOne]

Muadibb,

Why criticize me for not knowing a particular fact of Israeli history? That is why I stated that "I did not know", hoping that somebody, as yourself who does know could help fill in the blanks and inform not just myself but others reading this post.

Why must people criticize others here for not being 100% on every single thing they write? we are all here to discuss and debate, and to inform more than anything else. With all our combined minds put together, we not only debate each other in a genuine way, but also teach each other.


do you understand where I'm getting at?

Im sick of being continually criticized for what I write.

Originally posted by Muaddib


Arab nations made a blockade and would not allow Israeli ships to reach their ports, what do you think the Israeli govenrment would do stand by and do nothing?.....

Arab nations have attacked Israel several times, and every time Israel have won by themselves...and because such nations have used certain areas close to Israel the Israeli govenrment took over those lands, trying to stop the attacks on Israeli citizens.




[edit on 11-12-2006 by Muaddib]

ok look, you and your little American propaganda filled head need a little more real teaching, and there are a few points i want to teach you:

1. let me ask you a question. The holocaust happens, 6mil jews dead, now how does that give the jews a right to the palestinian lands, i guess if we went by how many people died in WWII and gave them lands relatively, i guess the russians should have had double there lands by now, after all they sacrificed 25mil people to win that war, so give me one way that the death of 6mil jews gives the jews or the british to take away lands fromt eh palestinians who have been living there for CENTURIES!?

2.ISRAEL if you actually look at facts instead of being spoon-fed American Propaganda, is the biggest terrorist in the region, biggest example, the Lebanese war a few months back, Hezbollah took away a few soldiers, damaged a few buildings, killled a few hundred israelies with rockets, how did the israelis doa so called "retaliation", ok i'll tell ya killed a few THOUSAND'S of lebanese civilians, destroyed the lebanese Economy completely, restarted Lebanons clock 25 years earlier, and ultimately is now responsible for the termoil happening in Lebanon right now, which can later lead on to another civil war. that is exactly what your defending right now, the unlawful killing of 1000's of civilians, and the unlawful destruction of other countries economies....

3. the Arabs have took back some lands(the sinai penninsula and the suez canal and others) in the Yom kippur war. the 1967 war was lost because of major corruption and back stabbing, not because of Israeli strategies or technique, read the story of that war carefullly and you'll see it....

4.last point, WHATEVER ARABS ever did to Israaelies, the Israelies have done it to the arabs TEN TIMES OVER SO PLEASE STOP THE BS

now listen i am not saying that Arabs are shameless and are not to blame for anything, but all i'm saying is that israel is not the little angel being picked on the neighbouring countries, israel is to be blamed majorly for the termoil in the area....