sharia law reaches britain

Originally posted by timeless test


That sounds an awful lot like a democracy to me.
[edit on 1-12-2006 by timeless test]

Well, if stoning and beheadings become common place, and that suits your definition opf democracy, then yes, I guess it is democracy.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Originally posted by timeless test


That sounds an awful lot like a democracy to me.
[edit on 1-12-2006 by timeless test]

Well, if stoning and beheadings become common place, and that suits your definition opf democracy, then yes, I guess it is democracy.

I think you know full well that I was referring to the process by which changes in the law may be effected by a change in the majority view, a process which I think most of us would generally approve of.

Stonings and beheadings are not going to become common place in the UK any time soon and any suggestion that they are is just plain foolish. Apart from anything else, the much derided Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights, (which certain UK political parties would like to repeal and withdraw from respectively), would prevent any such absurdity just as they prevent all forms of capital punshment in Europe.

The problem we have at the moment is this apparent determination to equate Muslims with barbarism which seems to be gaining currency in certain parts of the media and, therefore, some parts of the population at large. It is a form of propaganda which I had, perhaps naievely, hoped had been consigned to the dungeons of history in the West along with Nazi Germany but already on this thread we have had comments suggesting that a significant proportion of the population of the UK would be happy to take part in a genocide of Muslims.

Am I the only one outraged by such suggestions and is it even remotely surprising that immigrant communities prefer the company of people from their own cultures if they read comments of that kind?

Are Muslims the new Jews? How deliciously ironic.


[edit on 1-12-2006 by timeless test]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Thats only because the current majority wouldnt allow it. Dont you see? if the majority shifts, so does the law.

If you think that Muslims are going to become a majority any time soon, you're living in a fantasy world. Islam in the UK

According to the 2001 census 1,536,015 Muslims are living in England and Wales, where they form 2.7% of the population, in Scotland they represent 0.84% of the population

There might be isolated boroughs with high Muslim population, but the highest is

London Borough of Tower Hamlets 36.4% 71,389

Still quite some way short of a majority. The UK is moving towards a police state, it's hardly going to cede control to Muslims.

It amazes me the way people get worked up over all sorts of illusory problems... I suppose it saves them from concentrating on the ones immediately in front of them.

And I don't exclude myself from this admittedly trenchant observation

@ Timeless...

I think you are blind to what is going on in the UK

We are the new Jews. We are at constant loggerheads with Islam as one entity.

I don't hate someone because of the colour of their skin, or their religious beliefs.

I do however dislike someone if they insist on being 'different' and are constantly separating themselves from the majority of the population. These 'minority' groups have it easy - everything is given to them on a silver plate - because if it isn't, we're racists.

If someone wants to be a UK citizen, they should bloody well work hard to be a citizen, and to fit in to OUR CULTURE. I'll say it again, we are second class citizens. We can't speak against Islam for fear of being tagged a racist.

A mass genocide is not an answer (it is something only the uneducated would consider) so don't even assume I'm for that.

In an ideal world, we would be living side by side in a multicultural society - but it just can't happen. It hasn't worked in the past, and it NEVER will. Our cultures are just too different, which is why we have a dividing line between countries.


If a UK citizen wishes to emigrate, they have to fit in with culture the country of their choice.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by morgansolutions]

Originally posted by morgansolutions
@ Timeless...

I think you are blind to what is going on in the UK

We are the new Jews. We are at constant loggerheads with Islam as one entity.

Blind? Not at all, I am perfectly aware that Muslims account for a tiny proportion of the UK population and that whilst we, (rightly), have laws in this country which attempt to allow all ethnic and religious communities to coexist there are always some, (Muslim, Hindu, Christian and most others you may care to name), who appear to prefer conflict and confrontation to peace.

You say we are "at constant loggerheads with Islam as one entity". Are you sure? As I have just said, there are always problems with peaceful coexistence but that has nothing to do with Muslims per se, for heaven's sake the Scots and the English are still fighting 300 year old conflicts and arguments. But please explain in what way "Us", (whoever that may mean) are at constant loggerheads with the whole of Islam.

These 'minority' groups have it easy - everything is given to them on a silver plate.

I think a brief investigation into the relative wealth of the Christian and Muslim populations of the UK would demonstrate that this is not the case. I happen to be of fairly standard white English stock but black and Asian friends of mine would be happy to point out that being part of a visibly different ethnic or religious minority, (why did you put that word in quotation marks by the way?), is anything but a bed of roses.

If someone wants to be a UK citizen, they should bloody well work hard to be a citizen, and to fit in to OUR CULTURE.

I agree, and new laws are being implemented to promote this at the moment but does that mean they have to give up their identity? If I were to move to Scotland should I buy a kilt and and start celebrating Bannockburn?

I'll say it again, we are second class citizens. We can't speak against Islam for fear of being tagged a racist.

Utter hogwash. In what respect are "we" (just what does that mean in this context?) second class citizens? Please give an example where Muslims are treated more favourably by the law than Christians.

Incidentally, you have been fairly vocal in your criticism of Islam here but I have not tagged you as a racist. There is, of course, a subtle difference between racial prejudice and religious prejudice as the charming Nick Griffin has recently demonstrated but I can't really see why there should be in law.

A mass genocide is not an answer (it is something only the uneducated would consider) so don't even assume I'm for that.

I'm glad to hear it but there is at least one poster on this thread who appears to disagree with you.

If a UK citizen wishes to emigrate, they have to fit in with culture the country of their choice.

So how would you account for the thriving ex-pat communities of Euopeans in just about every country you choose to name. All cultural groups tend to gravitate towards the people and customs they are comfortable with and the British abroad are no different, indeed, many would consider them to be rather worse than many. This, of course, should not mean that immigrant or non indiginous communities can flout local laws but it never seems to stop Westerners drinking alcohol in Saudi Arabia or British visitors acting like drunken oafs in almost every overseas holiday destination you care to mention does it?

I agree with a lot of your points Timeless to a certain extent.

I am not looking for an argument either.

I am merely throwing my point of view into the discussion board and appreciate all forms of criticism.

The reason I punctuated the word "minority" is because it seems that the ratio between muslims and non-muslims in Britain is closing in. Not that this poses a problem for me. As long as I can still get a job in my country without fear of someone from an ethnic background getting this job before me - purely because the employers don't want to be seen as discriminatory. You can't deny that this happens - it's happening all the time.

Let me give you an example of where Muslims are treated more favourably than 'brits'. (I dont consider the UK to be a Christian country as most of the people I know and met are agnostic). They may celebrate Christmas, but that is purely a commercial scam these days.

My uncles lives in Bradford. As we know, Bradford has a very high concentration of Muslim immigrants and citizens and there has been a lot of tension there in recent years.

He was a board member on a committee of 15 who had to decide how spend grant money received from the city council. Now there many bids for this money. Homeless, new facilites for hospitals, a new park for the kids, a leisure centre.

One bid stood out for these board members - 'the money should be given to promote Islam in Bradford and should be given to Muslim community leaders'. (This money was later spent on the building of a new mosque).

11 out of the 15 decided that this bid deserved the grant. When questioned about why the decision was made, each one answered along these lines:

'Because I didn't want to be percieved as a racist"...



Now tell me Muslims are not being favoured over more needy causes?

I trust that neither of us a looking for an argument, just a healthy debate which should be available to everyone without fear of persecution.

As regards the ratio of Muslims to others in the UK the facts are clear and show that Muslims are a very small minority, less than 3% of the total population at the 2001 census, (details here). Of course, in some areas such as East London, Leicester and Bradford for example that will appear very different as there are very significant Asian communities in some local centres and no one can deny that the numbers are growing.

The example of your uncle's committee in Bradford is disturbing, not because the law treats non Muslims as second class citizens but because in that case it appears to have been the non Muslim members of the committee who chose to do that. The big question is why did they feel that pressure?

Obviously I can't comment on why they came to the decision that they did but I have to say, (without intending any offence), that if individuals agree to sit on committees distributing public funds I would be very disappointed if they did not have the confidence or the nerve to make the right decisions for the right reasons. You can hardly blame the Muslims or the law if the "Brits" aren't prepared to make the right decisions for themselves.

So...in WW2 we went to war to stop a culture that hearded people into gas chambers and carried out mass exterminations and yet someone on this thread who is proud to be "British" and probably thinks the Germans deserved a right good kicking seems to advocating that we do exactly the same as they did. I wonder if they wore their Poppy with pride last month?

And because a comittee in Bradford decides to build a mosque - and by the way health funding is ringfenced and therefore could not be spent elsewhere so quite where the notion that people suffered because of it comes from escapes me - us white people are second class citizens all of a sudden.

Tell you what I see. I see PTS has become a pseudo recruiting ground for the BNP - someone in an earlier post actually advocated voting for them

So I'll point this out. BNP stands for British National Party. It was founded in 1982 when the National Front fell apart. The National Front had its roots in the British Nationalism movement, which was a post war extension of the banned British Nazi Party, headed by Oswald Mosely, a man who held Adolf Hitler as his idol.

So if you want to support the BNP, fine, be a Nazi, and get the hell out of my country because thousands of British Servicemen died to prevent scum like you from spreading your vile hate here.

Firstly: Islam is widely considered Europe's fastest growing religion, with immigration and above average birth rates leading to a rapid increase in the Muslim population.

The exact number of Muslims is difficult to establish however, as census figures are often questioned and many countries choose not to compile such information anyway.


Let's see some statistics:


WITH TURKEY

COUNTRY----------------------POPULATION--------------------MUSLIM POP
ALBANIA-----------------------3,100,000.00--------------------2,200,000.00---70.97%
AUSTRIA-----------------------8,200,000.00----------------------339,000.00---4.13%
BELGIUM-----------------------1,030,000.00------------------------40,000.00---3.88%
BOSNIA------------------------3,800,000.00---------------------1,500,000.00---39.47%
CHZECH REPUBLIC----------10,240,000.00------------------------20,480.00---0.20%
DENMARK----------------------5,400,000.00-----------------------270,000.00---5.00%
FRANCE-----------------------62,300,000.00---------------------6,000,000.00---9.63%
GERMANY---------------------82,500,000.00---------------------3,000,000.00---3.64%
HUNGARY---------------------10,006,000.00-------------------------60,000.00---0.60%
ITALY--------------------------58,400,000.00-----------------------825,000.00---1.41%
KOSOVO------------------------2,000,000.00---------------------1,800,000.00---90.00%
MACEDONIA--------------------2,100,000.00-----------------------630,000.00---30.00%
NETHERLANDS----------------16,300,000.00-----------------------984,000.00---6.04%
POLAND------------------------38,635,000.00------------------------30,000.00---0.08%
SERBIA & MONTENEGRO-------8,100,000.00----------------------405,000.00---5.00%
SLOVENIA-----------------------2,010,000.00------------------------50,000.00---2.49%
SPAIN--------------------------43,100,000.00---------------------1,000,000.00---2.32%
SWEDEN-------------------------9,000,000.00-----------------------300,000.00---3.33%
SWEDEN-------------------------9,000,000.00-----------------------300,000.00---3.33%
SWITZERLAND------------------7,400,000.00-----------------------310,800.00---4.20%
TURKEY-------------------------68,700,000.00-------------------68,000,000.00---98.98%
UK-------------------------------58,000,000.00--------------------1,600,000.00---2.76%
TOTAL--------------------------509,321,000.00------------------89,664,280.00---17.60%

WITHOUT TURKEY
TOTAL--------------------------440,621,000.00------------------21,664,280.00----4.92%


With Turkey joining the EU soon, the European Muslim population increases to 17.5% - many of which will seek to cross into the UK in search of prosperity. What happens when we can no longer support our own?

What happens when all the countries of Europe merge into one and over 20% of the total population are muslim?

@ neformore...

A) I wouldn't vote BNP (they aren't represented in Wales anyway)
B) BNP are a small minded disorganised bunch of Neo-Nazis who hate everyone different from themselves.
C) I do agree with some of their ideal but in no way do I support them
D) I would give my left bollock to see the us get on with other cultures, but as long as they establish themselves as being different, and carry on segregating themselves from british society, it just aint gonna happen.





[edit on 1-12-2006 by morgansolutions]

[edit on 1-12-2006 by morgansolutions]

Morgans,

Islam is Europe's fastest growing religion not least because it is quite probably Europe's ONLY growing religion (if we exclude the outright crackpots).

I really think you're getting overly hung up on the Turkey issue.

Firstly it is by no means certain that they will join the EU in nthe near future, they have a number of issues to resolve before that becomes possible particularly regarding Cyprus.

Secondly, we will have the right to restrict immigration from Turkey if they do join. Just as we had the right to do this for Poland, Hungary and Czech but didn't, (a mistake), and will have the right to do for Bulgaria and almost certainly will do, (because we have learnt something).

Thirdly, Turkey is a secular state, not an Islamic state. Nort all Muslims want to live under Islamic law and very significant elements of the Sharia are entirely incompatible with European legislation and conventions.

I should worry about problems we already have, (such as intolerant ignornat people who consider themselves above the law who are as white and "British" as you and I), rather than those which do not exist.

Originally posted by Flighty

I'm not hearing too much noise about it here either. But then with the BBC being held to ramson by the rabid lefties, I"m just wondering where the average Brit would get this news these days?

On a different note, Britain has been pussywhipped for so long with the bloody Queen not making way for a male successor. Maybe the day that happens, Britain will get its balls back and make a stand on these issues. Maybe its time the Queen retired and gave the reigns to the boys. (especially Prince William)

It seems that a masculine vibe and energy is need in Britain these days. My 2 cents.

Well personally I heard it discussed at length on the BBC!
Perhaps your rabid gnashing at the 'lefties' prevented you from hearing the item? The item also mentioned that there are Jewish courts too - both have been used to settle civil disputes. There are two muslim courts that meet occasionally, and 5 permanent Jewish courts - are you 2.5 times more outraged about that?

Shame you missed it it was a balanced & serious discussion.

'The bloody Queen'??!? Why are you so rude about our monarch and disrespectful for all the work she has done?

'Making way for a male successor'? Do you understand the first thing about Monarchy? Why should she abdicate? - she may well do so at some time in the future but it's her choice not yours.

Why do you advocate bypassing Charles? The whole point about a hereditary monarchy is that you don't get to choose who does the job - you can choose not to have a monarchy (separate discussion) but you can't choose the monarch!

Your 2 cents?? so not a native of these shores then?

I imagine you're American and therefore you critising our media is somewhat laughable

Britian brings it on them selves. You get what you allow into your state. Perhaps you should be more careful on .. who you let in. Take a lesson from the histories. 2 cultures can NEVER, EVER, EVVVEERRR opperate within the same society without clash.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Britian brings it on them selves. You get what you allow into your state. Perhaps you should be more careful on .. who you let in. Take a lesson from the histories. 2 cultures can NEVER, EVER, EVVVEERRR opperate within the same society without clash.

Exactly my point.

And by the way - us brits never get to vote on these things - it's all done for us.

We've never even been allowed to vote on whether we should be part of the EU or not.

It costs britain £52,000,000,000.00 (52billion) annually to for EU membership. (thats almost £2,000 a year for every tax payer)

Thats £142Million per day (£6million per hour!!!) or to break it down even further = £1,700 every second of every day!!!



For what? So a bunch of foreigners can regulate every little thing that happens here?

I can't see the benefit for Britain.



EDIT: QUOTE

Robert Oulds, Director of the Bruges Group said,
"The cost per minute is an enormous sum, over the course of a year the figure is shocking. To put it into perspective just £1 billion will pay for 222,000 hip replacements, or 46,893 nurses, or 38,782 teachers, or 34,585 police officers.

"Imagine what we could do in Britain with the £50.6 billion that the EU costs us each year."

[edit on 1-12-2006 by morgansolutions]

So we should kick out all the Jewish people too?

Maccaba v Lichtenstein was the most bitter of disputes. Fought out in the High Court, it revolved around sex, money, the power and politics of religion and, in addition, offered an intriguing glimpse into the Orthodox Jewish community in London.

At the heart of it was the hotly contested allegation, that Brian Maccaba, a married father, had made an "indecent proposal" to buy Nathalie Attar, the wife of a Jewish friend, for $1 million (£550,000), so that he could marry her himself.

He had developed an "obsessive and selfish infatuation for her", it was claimed, one that was not reciprocated, and had sexually harassed her twice, by kissing her and groping her breast. Then, he had tried to destroy her marriage "for his own gratification".

It was a case that polarised the Jewish community with many believing that it should have remained within the confines of a Beth Din, or court.

(my bold)

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2004/06/26/nprop226.xml

Just so we know, as lessons on how to run our own society are always welcomed from those overseas!

Originally posted by morgansolutions

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Britian brings it on them selves. You get what you allow into your state. Perhaps you should be more careful on .. who you let in. Take a lesson from the histories. 2 cultures can NEVER, EVER, EVVVEERRR opperate within the same society without clash.

Exactly my point.

And by the way - us brits never get to vote on these things - it's all done for us.

We've never even been allowed to vote on whether we should be part of the EU or not.

It costs britain £52,000,000,000.00 (52billion) annually to for EU membership. (thats almost £2,000 a year for every tax payer)

Thats £142Million per day (£6million per hour!!!) or to break it down even further = £1,700 every second of every day!!!


For what? So a bunch of foreigners can regulate every little thing that happens here?

I can't see the benefit for Britain.

Separate argument / discussion - try and stay on subject.

Although strictly you are technically correct you have remebered the 1975 referendum haven't you?

en.wikipedia.org...

And you do get to vote on things, every 5 years. If you want endless referenda then emmigrate!

I do not want endless referenda.

I would say however that since the 70's, Britain has changed considerably and I'm sure that most voters would vote against EU membeship (with the exception of people who own internationally trading companies)

...And, I would love to be able to afford to move to another country.

Unfortunately these religious mediations are permitted in civil cases which involves family court. Many young women from developing countries have no idea they have a legal right to their own children as well as the financial support to help raise them.

Educating and freeing mothers from abusive familial situations is imperative for the good health of future generations.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by clearwater]

Originally posted by Britguy
Old saying - when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Same should be true here. Anyone wishing to reside within the UK must abide by the laws of the land. Those laws apply to ALL residents, no matter what ethnic or religious belief is personally held.

Of course they should. The modern United Kingdom is built on the rule of law - law laid down by the UK Parliament, and also by devolved bodies. We can't have dozens of different rules or laws for different groups of people because the system just wouldn't work. It'd be akin to some sort of semi-anarchist 'state' (if that makes sense ). In the UK, everyone is supposedly equal in the eyes of the law and has the right to a fair trial regardless of their offence. I'm sure if these groups wanted their laws enacted they could submit them to their MP who could put them before Parliament if necessary, where it would be debated in due course. Alternatively, if it's minor local legislation it may be possible for the local council to do something about it.

But again, it all needs to be kept within existing frameworks to be legal in the eyes of the law and the vast majority of the UK population.

There does, however, seem to be some significant fearmongering over this issue. Remember, they aren't trying to apply it to white Britons but to members of their own community. I'm not condoning it in any way - in fact I find it quite disagreeable - but I think it would be prudent to keep that in mind.

Originally posted by Ste2652
There does, however, seem to be some significant fearmongering over this issue.

- Precisely.

No-one is talking about British law being replaced or ignored.
It is still there and will continue to be there regardless.

This is purely about what might happen in certain circumstances if people agree and choose not to go to and through the formal legal proceedures.

It's nothing new and it's is something that happens all the time in the wider community......but, you know how it is these days with some, attach the name 'Muslim' and mention 'Sharia Law' and some folks can't help but imagine 'our' country being 'taken over', 'forced conversions' etc etc.

So are Muslims the new Irish or something?



Did i sleep through the creation of the Islamic Republic of the United Kingdom or something

*yawns* i think we need to stop creating fear over nothing.

[edit on 2-12-2006 by infinite]