Rumsfeld et al to face War Crimes prosecution?

On November 14th a group of lawyers and other experts will ask a German judge to open a prosecution case against Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales, and other key Bush administration figures prominent in conducting the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Under the doctrine of Universal Jurisdiction, it is possible to prosecute crimes against humanity committed outside a country's borders by non-nationals. Therefore German courts can prosecute Rumsfeld, just as Pinochet was prosecuted in Spain. The key to this prosecution is the passing of the Military Commissions Act, which would retroactively confer immunity from prosection on US officials who have committed war crimes.



The issue of torture is likely to loom large in this prosecution, and the civilised world's abhorrence of torture is something that Americans need to have brought home to them. This case could conceivably do that, but it has, it seems, had little coverage so far - hardly a surprise, considering the subject matter.

It is high time that Rumsfeld and his cronies were brought to book. It is unlikely that this case will succeed, but that is a matter of realpolitik rather than natural justice or correct legal procedure. I would have liked to see Blair and his supine cabinet included in the summons, and of course Bush himself. The fact of the matter is that they invaded a sovreign independent country on the flimsiest of pretexts, becoming war criminals in the process.

It will be interesting to watch the arguments over this case develop. There will, I predict, be plenty who say "it's politically motivated"; and of course there are the people who defend torture when "we" do it, as something necessary but distasteful (in fact, it's so distasteful that going ahead with torture is a sign of "manliness", the willingness to get things done no matter what), but when insurgents do it, it's vile. And there will be plenty of people who will attempt to defend an indefensible attack on a sovreign nation, saying their purpose was to liberate Iraq. In a country of originally 27 million, over half a million have died as a direct result of the invasion, and over a million more are fleeing the country. They are voting with their feet. The authors of this disaster deserve prosecution, and it's good to see people trying to bring even-handed justice to the world.

Those lawyers are more likely to end up in a US detention facility and held as enemies of the empire, before Rumsfeld has a day in court.



Maybe they better work on restoring a balance of power first...



[edit on 6-11-2006 by Regenmacher]

Perhaps this is the way to peace....make it so that torturers and war-mongers of any sort are brought to trial and forced to pay for their crimes against humanity.

The only just cause for war is self-defense...in this context WW2 was still a just war and Vietnam and Iraq were/are not.

Every leader who starts an unprovoked war (or deliberately provokes one) should be brought to trial.

Yes Grover, there's a reason Rummy's cabinet post is named Secretary of DEFENSE.

Perhaps this is a reason the military has decided to distance itself from Rummy:

Rumsfeld Must Go

Go to Germany to answer the charges...?

They ALL must go.

Action should be immediate.

They can go wherever they want and do as they want.
They can bully whomever they want and only muhadjin fighters dare stand up against them.
Even little Kim is afraid of them.

They are the neighbourhood bully.
Whoes gonna take away their license to kill?

No, they won't walk the plank.

Why do you think they never acknowledged The Criminal Court in the Hague?
Because they know they are criminals.

Why do you think they granted themselves amnesty in Military Commision Act?
Because they are the greatest terrorists of all time.
And they know it.

Who shall stand up against them?

But they do go down the drain of decency.

Just found a neocon quote today; by Michael Ledeen. He says:

"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business"
Business!!

Yes it all comes down to business (but soon it won't be as usual).

There's a case against Rumsfeld being brought by tortured detainees and it's being endored by Human Rights First. There's a statement on their website from Rear Admiral John D. Hutson (Ret. USN) Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy, talking about it.

The civilian leaders bear a grave responsibility. In recent years, Secretary Rumsfeld has failed to uphold that duty. He has permitted, and indeed encouraged, military personnel to fall far short of the aspirational standards that Americans deserve and expect in our armed forces. His leadership has been found wanting in the most fundamental and important ways.

During my career in the Navy, I learned the value and strength of the chain of command. Not only direct orders go down the chain of command, but also attitudes.

In dealing with detainees, the attitude at the top was that they are all just terrorists, beneath contempt and outside the law so they could be treated inhumanely. Our effort to gain information vitiated 200 years of history. International obligations didn’t matter, nor did morality or humanity. It was okay to lose our soul as long as we got information, no matter how unreliable.

That attitude dropped like a rock down the chain of command, and we had Abu Ghraib and its progeny. The self-respect of the military and the country was diminished. Our international reputation will be tarnished for generations. In the end, Secretary Rumsfeld’s nonfeasance and malfeasance has imperiled the war effort and endangered troops.

And that was back in summer 2005.

Sadly, the corruption and arrogance is so endemic that I'm not holding my breath for Rumsfeld to go and face the charges. It's refreshing to know, however, that there's at least one country he won't be able to go without fear of arrest.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by rich23]

Originally posted by grover
Perhaps this is the way to peace....make it so that torturers and war-mongers of any sort are brought to trial and forced to pay for their crimes against humanity.

Every leader who starts an unprovoked war (or deliberately provokes one) should be brought to trial.

Well said Grover.
Thats sort of what the Nuremburg trails were about,no?

I have always said that if Blair/Bushco were tried under those laws
they would be found guilty of war crimes.

Also it would have the effect of showing the rest of the world that aggressive wars
are a bad idea,as you will be held to account (even if it does take years).

So I guess we know now why the Military Commissions Act was created in the first place.



Let the trials begin. Call them Nuremburg Redux.


.

This is funny as hell. Tomorrow I'm going to ask my local judge to try Celine Dion for crimes against humanity. Complete and utter joke, the US and the world (well the parts of the world that matter anyway) will not recognize this, as such it is meaningless, it is only symbolic. I'd love to see a country try and enforce this, remember the Hague Invasion Act?

Interesting westpoint I was not aware of that one good find

On a side note; does anyone know if this is the same group of clowns who were going to have Rummy arrested at a Summit (forget which one) that was held in Germany? Activist Lawyers make me sick

This REALLY... I Mean REALLY Needs to be on the mainstream news...

Let the people see what IDIOTIC Liberals are doing when the get in positions of power...


It would be funny if it was not so absolutely predictable and ludicrous.

Semper

Originally posted by soficrow
So I guess we know now why the Military Commissions Act was created in the first place.

Let the trials begin. Call them Nuremburg Redux.

Exactly!

They throw the Geneva Conventions in the face of international law, let international court throw the book at them. (I'm still calling it the Torture Bill--I even named my newest cat Bill)

Hope Gonzo knows a good lawyer.



Sofi, I'll second that: "Let the trials begin."

Just keep the SCOTUS out of it this time. Oh, there's their crackerjack defense team. Getting to work, at tax-payers expense?

I hear the Veep is going shooting on election day. Pity the partners.

Cheney Will Be Armed on Election Day
The vice president this Tuesday will be on a hunting trip, his first since he shot friend Harry Whittington in the face.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by psyopswatcher]

WestPoint,

That is quite an Act.

God forbid there be a legal constraint on how US troops should act.

Much better to let them be aware that no matter what atrocity they commit there will be no comeback.

Yet again your naivete shines through.

Cheers

S396

Originally posted by Sandman396
WestPoint,

That is quite an Act.

God forbid there be a legal constraint on how US troops should act.

Much better to let them be aware that no matter what atrocity they commit there will be no comeback.

Yes it is, it's a wonderful act, almost as wonderful as our decision not join or recognize the ICC. We hold our troops accountable ourselves, no need to let a third party unaccountable body with motives and influences have that kind of authority over our elected officials and troops.

Originally posted by Sandman396
Yet again your naivete shines through.

Thanks for the kind words, what can I say, I love American sovereignty.

Originally posted by semperfortis
This REALLY... I Mean REALLY Needs to be on the mainstream news...

Let the people see what IDIOTIC Liberals are doing when the get in positions of power...


It would be funny if it was not so absolutely predictable and ludicrous.

Semper

Did you even read this Semper....there is nothing in the post that has anything to do with liberals...it is a legal action in Germany, as it says much as the Spanish legal action brought Pinochet to trial. This has nothing to do with Republican/Democrat/conservative/liberal in this country and everything to do with international legal constructs.

Besides all that....if it can definately be proven that Rumsfeld ,or any other member of our government regardless of party affilation were found guilty of crimes against humanity...would you still object?

When does the common weal take precedence over nationalistic interests?

Were the Numeburg trials wrong? The Nazi's were duly elected after all.

I personally am all in favor of international standards of justice that apply equally to everyone....terrorist, civilian, general and head of state....Including (and perhaps since they have done their best to position themselves as a law unto themselves, especially so) our own.

It has nothing to do with the Republican/conservative/Democrat/liberal dictomy and everything to do with legal standards.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by grover]

The Hague Invasion Act. Oh, hilarious. Yet more of the myth of US exceptionalism. As I said in the original post, people are going to say that such prosecutions are "politically motivated". These vague, windy assertions are all that is needed in some people's minds to vitiate the legal case against war criminals. It's such sloppy thinking, but vital to obfuscate the very real offences that Rumsfeld and his cronies have committed.

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Those lawyers are more likely to end up in a US detention facility and held as enemies of the empire, before Rumsfeld has a day in court.

Yep. I tend to agree with this statement.
Even if the case goes through, it will end up being dismissed because the actions taken were 'for the good of the world' or 'against terrorism.'
Lastly, even if the case goes through and Rumsfeld & co are found guilty, it will be nore more than a slap on the wrist, and maybe a few years imprisonment.

Justice? I think not.

Gear, I don't think you understood my earlier post. NOTHING will happen to any US elected officials because of what some court in Germany says and or does. Get it? They have no authority over us nationals and no one will enforce or recognizes this decision.

WESTPOINT;

Well, all I can say is eventually they will leave their country - and when they do - they will be held accountable. Hopefully. If America is incapable of taking care of their own business, then they have no reason to be upset when others take care of it for them...