Just Let 'Em Go?

I knew I could smell smoke last night. All you fine people were doin' some thinking last night I can see. I'm a little overwhelmed after reading through those posts, read a few of them twice. When I created the thread, I never expected to see so many intellectual responses. I thank you all for your contributions.

Alright, going to take this one slow so I don't miss anything.

Originally Posted by WyrdeOne
The same problems exist in higher education, namely the lowest common denominator approach that ignores the gifted in favor of the challenged.

Yes!

I completed three years of my bachelors degree, and had to move on. Should of after the first year, really should of after the second year. But after three I simply had too much. It was a waste of time, effort and money. The pace we moved at was embarrassing. What they spread out over four years, could of easily been completed in two. Why the hell am I paying thousands of dollars a year to be enrolled about 14 hours a week, then paying almost $2000 on books and then about $400 on parking, if were still not doing a god damn thing. I was really disappointed, thought things were going to be different and challenging. I'm no scholar, but I want to be tested. I expected to be pushed in my studies.

Originally Posted by WyrdeOne
To some extent the school system is in a position to make up for the shortcomings of mediocre parents. They get the kids for an extended period of time every day, and they have the resources to bring in ideas that would never surface at home.

I've discussed this issue in my current course so much. At the moment I am enrolled in in a private institute to become a Social/Youth Worker. My goal is to work with misfortunate children, children in the justice system, kids with disabilities, etc., and I strongly believe the school system itself can do wonders to turn children around. My step-father was a seasonal fisherman and my mother was a housewife, so conversations in my house were severely restricted. The hours I spent at school were actually exciting, looking at issues that I had not even fathomed, or acknowledged its existence. Looking at the world from a new perspective was something I enjoyed. But alls we would get is a taste of something and then move on. On more than one occasion I was told to just let it go because it wasn't fair to other children that I asked so many questions and they wanted to move on to the next issue. Not fair to them? What about the kid who wants to learn more?

Inclusiveness is a positive, but it has its problems. Especially when those children who are included, exploit every second of the opportunity they are given. Many do take advantage of the opportunity, but the school yard bully who took up drinking and smoking at the ripe age of 11, should not be setting the pace for our studies.

Originally Posted by SportyMB
MOST people change their career goals in high school, so if they drop out and not take classes like algebra and read literature, when it comes time to decide what they really want to do....they'll be SOL and have very limited paths of where to go in life and what jobs to take.

I agree 100%. But my problem is with the narrow-mindedness of our education system. The focus should not be on Caesar, Hamlet, Algebra. It should take in account for the percentage that want to work in a specific field. If they choose to change their mind, the other path is always there for them. I actually enjoyed reading Shakespeare when I was in high school, but I know a lot of people who actually dropped out of high school due to it. They could not pass an English class, and in our high school the requirements were three english credits. We had 19 year old men taking an english course with 15 year olds on a regular basis.

The education system itself is a massive contradiction. The material is directed towards the upper echelon while the pace is for the kids who do not give a damn. What is the reasoning for this? The kids that want to learn are pissed off because of how slow we are moving, while the others are too overwhelmed to give it a chance.

Kids enrolled in the public school system should have more than one path to receive their high school diploma.

Originally Posted by WyrdeOne
Really, the parents are the ones with all the power to shape their child's future. They can teach so much in the years before school even starts. Most of them waste that time, and the kids are entering school at a stage barely past infancy. Their bodies are growning up, but their minds have been neglected.

Parents who are not reading to their children or giving them educational games, are putting them at a huge disadvantage. Parents are obligated to assist in the process and should be making every attempt at a young age when the brain is a sponge. But lets face it, when the child enters the education system, it is not the biggest concern of most parents. A lot of families are forced to have both parents working 40 hours a week, which has caused the amount of Latchkey children to spike in the last few decades. This is why I believe the onus is on the education system, more so than the parents.

Now, a good parent is going to make time for their child regardless of how many hours they work. But when a parent does not make this effort, it is up to the school system to step in.

But due to the narrow-mindedness of our schooling, many kids are lost in the shuffle.

This is an interesting subject and one that needs attention. I think possibly younger kids need a chance to earn their on money say like at 13 or 14 years old so they can get a feel for how far their money goes and how hard they had to work to get it. It doesn't really matter at this point whether or not the job they are doing is going to be a career choice but that they have a job. Then they all of the sudden wake up, the light comes on and they say," hold on , I don't won't to do this all my life''. If they could experience this while still going to school it would give them plenty of time to adjust their education goals. Or what if you could start a full time job at 13 or 14 as an apprentice like someone mentioned earlier, doing what you are going to be doing all your life. And possibly make it where you could still change your apprenticeship if the current one doesn't seem to be working out.


Once you have done a job say twenty years it sort of traps you, its all you know. Later in life its hard to escape it because anywhere else you go you'd be starting off at the bottom and working your way back up.

Originally posted by Burnt Offering
I think possibly younger kids need a chance to earn their on money say like at 13 or 14 years old so they can get a feel for how far their money goes and how hard they had to work to get it.

I'll agree with this point, only that the age is a little extreme. Thirteen and Fourteen is too young, in my opinion. In my town, there is a stigma carried on those who graduate high school and enter the work force. Mainly because of the lack of job opportunities in my area, people believe university is the only answer. So many students enter university with no clue of what they want to do and then drop out after a year or two with a five figure debt.

I would much rather see a child finish high school and enter the work force. Get used to working forty hours a week and decide for yourself what you could see yourself doing. That is, of course, if your not exactly certain to what you want to do with your life. We do change our minds, thats not restricted to students. Most of us will undoubtedly change our professions many times over our lives. Many kids are being pushed into University and studying towards a future. When they attain this, they realize its not for them. They now have a $25,000+ degree that is useless to them and they start over. It's happening a lot. My girlfriend has a degree, and it serves her no purpose.

A Bachelor of Arts degree in todays society is the equivalence of two ply toilet paper.

Originally posted by Burnt Offering
Or what if you could start a full time job at 13 or 14 as an apprentice like someone mentioned earlier, doing what you are going to be doing all your life. And possibly make it where you could still change your apprenticeship if the current one doesn't seem to be working out.

Depriving a child of their innocence is not the answer. Most of us have fond memories of being a child. Why? Not having to work, not having to pay bills. Our only relationship with money was the few bucks our parents gave us to blow on candy or the latest fad. Again, I agree with your message but I feel 13 and 14 is way too young.

You bring up a very important point about the value of a college diploma Chissler.

Even as the cost of a four year college education reaches epic proportions, the real-dollar value of the degree sinks to an all time low.

Never before in the history of this country have so many educated people been unemployed and underemployed.

What good is a college degree if you're going to end up at a crappy job, or worse, unemployed anyway? Does it give people pleasure to have huge debts hanging over their heads? For the cost of a college education, you could either put a down payment on a nice house, and work to pay it off, or just outright BUY a house in a depressed area!

What's twice as unfortunate is that now, in many cases, you need that worthless degree just to get the crappy job! There are so many degreed individuals in the job market, it raises the level of competition at a time when it's hard enough to get a job.

And forgetting the dollar value of a degree for a moment, what about the standards in college? As they keep slipping, a degree means less and less.

All it really signifies, in most cases, is that you can finish what you start, and that you managed to scrape together enough money to get the stupid piece of paper.

I've been in schools around the country, and the students coming out with a diploma are really no smarter than the average citizen. They are, for the most part, functionally illiterate, and useless when it comes to math and science.

So what does it mean that you have a degree, when there are millions of uneducated people carrying around the same little piece of paper that, ostensibly, signals that they're educated? Doesn't the fact that they have one reduce the value of the one you have, even if you're relatively smart, and able to work hard?

As I've learned Wyrde you speak the truth. I have a B.A. and am incapable of finding a job right now. Much less I come from a very accredited university (George Washington.) To continue along that line, I was lucky enough to have the oportunity for such an education and I now find my degree utterly useless....

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by Burnt Offering
I think possibly younger kids need a chance to earn their on money say like at 13 or 14 years old so they can get a feel for how far their money goes and how hard they had to work to get it.

I'll agree with this point, only that the age is a little extreme.

Well the only reason I even suggested that age is because I started working summers at the age of 14 and in my particular case I would have been better off had I worked all winter as opposed to going back to school. I enjoyed working at that age far, far more than I enjoyed school. I'm not saying its for everyone but it would have been for me. Like you said though my fondest memories now are of those free summers without a job no place to go nothing to do. Thats the closest to freedom I have ever felt, I miss those days. But like they say an idle mind is the devils playground. Too much idle time and a kid will soon find himself in trouble. I would come closer now as a middle age person to finding something I really want to do and persuing it which is practically impossible because I have a family to raise. Thats another reason I suggest starting early. Once you get a family its ten times harder to pursue personal goals. If you could start work early and retire early while you still have some life in you it would be nice.

Originally Posted by WyrdeOne
Even as the cost of a four year college education reaches epic proportions, the real-dollar value of the degree sinks to an all time low.

The truth in this statement actually scares me. Between my girlfriend and I, we owe about $45,000 to the federal government on student loans. The system is created for the average student to fail. Society is more kind to the man who leaves school and enters the work force. As they form credit, we form debt. I've had professors do lectures where forty years ago, a mans capital would be the equivalence of a mans debt today.

Originally Posted by WyrdeOne
I've been in schools around the country, and the students coming out with a diploma are really no smarter than the average citizen.

Again, too true. I've never wasted more time in my life than when I was in my university courses. I felt I studied for three years, and learned nothing. I can't think of anything I know now, that I did not know after high school. However, since entering the course I am in now. I believe in the first few months of this course, the knowledge and discussion I have had, severely outweigh my university experience.

Too often in school or university, the goal of the professor is to trick us. They want to catch us off guard and slap us with an F in the face. The test measures what exactly? That the educator is more than capable of confusing the children? Why not make more of an effort in actually measuring what the children know?

Originally Posted by Burnt Offering
Well the only reason I even suggested that age is because I started working summers at the age of 14

I can understand exactly where your coming from. From the time I've been 12 years old, I had a job. My first was as an extra on a television show, great experience. Ever since I have always been making a few bucks as a minor hockey official or little league umpire. Small jobs that pay a few bucks but never take up too much of my time. I would not want to see a kid having to carry a schedule with 30 to 40 hours a week. As you said, this was the closest to freedom we'll ever know. I never held a full-time job until I was 18, not many should hold a full one much earlier than that.

Oh retirement is only, 40+ years away.



[edit on 5-11-2006 by chissler]

Originally posted by chissler
I've never wasted more time in my life than when I was in my university courses. I felt I studied for three years, and learned nothing. I can't think of anything I know now, that I did not know after high school. However, since entering the course I am in now. I believe in the first few months of this course, the knowledge and discussion I have had, severely outweigh my university experience.

I'm gonna say that your experience is subjective... I've learned much more in college than I ever did in high skool, and the more that I've put into the process of learning, the more I've gotten out.

Too often in school or university, the goal of the professor is to trick us. They want to catch us off guard and slap us with an F in the face. The test measures what exactly? That the educator is more than capable of confusing the children? Why not make more of an effort in actually measuring what the children know?

Granted, most of the gen. ed. courses are bullplop, and are a test of one's sponge-reguritation factor.

But, when it gets to the higher level courses, as with most things, it all depends on what you put into it. (I didn't think Chaucer had anything to teach me until I resigned myself to passing the class -- I learned a lot once I got into it.)

And I've never gotten an F where I did not justly deserve it. And only 1 class where the teacher tricked us, primarily because he was not a good teacher (the man knew *lots*, but couldn't relay the facts to us in any meaningful way), and so every question given was a smack across the face.

Beyond that, the tests are a measure of one's analytical ability. Unless it's a mere memorization of facts, like biology...

Me and mine are up to about $80k so far.. probably more. I'm personally hoping for something to happen that wipew out the loan records.. huge emp or something. Not holding my breath, but oh boy will I cheer if it ever happens!!
. o O (Do the loans get passed down to the kids? ..if not, maybe I'll just keep going to skool until I die... *evil laugh*)

Originally posted by Diseria
I'm gonna say that your experience is subjective... I've learned much more in college than I ever did in high skool, and the more that I've put into the process of learning, the more I've gotten out.

I'll agree to that. I was just frustrated that 99% of my studies, were towards something I would not have to use in my day to day business. I felt it was a waste of my time. I never failed a course, did quite well in most of them. But I just wasn't happy with what I was doing, so I decided to get out while I could. I left university due to my distaste for the content, not from my lack of marks. Not sure if it was clear or not.

So without a doubt our experiences are subjective.