The "Lonnie Zamora" case

I don't get what this post is suppose to be about.

Aliens aren't real so instead I'm going to substitute the odd parts of Zamora's story with "top secret technology". Then I'm going to explain away any challenges by saying the truth exists but is hidden by the aliens/US secret agency/fairies.

Look I agree, the answer is more likely to be humans and not aliens. No one has proven aliens exist, but their non-existance also seems "unlikely". Science doesn't accept "likely" answers though. You have to demonstrate why your likely answer stands up to the evidence. You can't hide it in a room, in Area 51, or on the other side of the galaxy.

Occam's Razor doesn't give absolutes...it points you in a direction. Sometimes that direction is wrong. When more facts are added to a limited experience, or more witnesses...the once likely answer now has been changed. I think this story needs more facts.

If we do have anti-gravity craft then I'm not impressed with what we've done with the technology. If you can repel the Earth, then why not bullets, why not create machines that run forever, why not just stop playing around and take over the world. I think our anti-gravity technology is very limited and most likely (there's that term again) not advanced enough for what happened in 1964. There may still be a mundane answer to Socorro, but it's odd that we still haven't heard from people about it, though we hear non stop talk about Roswell, the UFO nuclear missle silo acivation in Montana and North Dakota, stealth technology, cloaking devices, and more...but still no one speaks up about Socorro.

Originally posted by Atomic
I don't get what this post is suppose to be about.

Aliens aren't real so instead I'm going to substitute the odd parts of Zamora's story with "top secret technology". Then I'm going to explain away any challenges by saying the truth exists but is hidden by the aliens/US secret agency/fairies.

Look I agree, the answer is more likely to be humans and not aliens. No one has proven aliens exist, but their non-existance also seems "unlikely". Science doesn't accept "likely" answers though. You have to demonstrate why your likely answer stands up to the evidence. You can't hide it in a room, in Area 51, or on the other side of the galaxy.

Occam's Razor doesn't give absolutes...it points you in a direction. Sometimes that direction is wrong. When more facts are added to a limited experience, or more witnesses...the once likely answer now has been changed. I think this story needs more facts.

If we do have anti-gravity craft then I'm not impressed with what we've done with the technology. If you can repel the Earth, then why not bullets, why not create machines that run forever, why not just stop playing around and take over the world. I think our anti-gravity technology is very limited and most likely (there's that term again) not advanced enough for what happened in 1964. There may still be a mundane answer to Socorro, but it's odd that we still haven't heard from people about it, though we hear non stop talk about Roswell, the UFO nuclear missle silo acivation in Montana and North Dakota, stealth technology, cloaking devices, and more...but still no one speaks up about Socorro.

What's a better way of hiding something, than hiding it in plane sight?

Plus why would the US military, if it does indeed operate craft that utilise anti-gravity technology (originally developed by the Nazis, long before the 1960s), risk operating them in the white-world and give potential foes the oppurtunity to develop counter-measures against such craft or perfect similar technology themselves?

Still keeping up with the cheap 'little green men' gibes are we?

Egotosum, what do you want us to say? It must be a military test craft because extra-terrestrials don't exist?

No one here is saying black projects/experimental crafts do not exist, just as no one is saying that all UFO's are extra-terrestrial. But I understand no matter how much evidence is presented in favour of the extra-terrestrial argument you're just going to throw it in the trash without even looking at it.

I really think you picked the wrong case to prove your points.

You are the one who started the thread too, yet you haven't really mentioned any details about the "Lonnie Zamora" case. You have a definite conclusion about a case that you obviously haven't even properly looked at.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Strawberry_Icecream]

Originally posted by Egotosum As one of the aerospace-industry insiders that Nick Cook interviews, for his book "The Hunt for Zero Point", points out, "...the aerospace and defence industry is inherently conservative. It doesn't like change. This...knowledge, if you can call it that, is dangerous stuff. It's change with a capital C and it's not easy to get your head around. The aerospace and defence industry says it likes people who think out of the box, because they're the guys who give us the breakthroughs...radar, the bomb, stealth and that. But think this far out and they look at you and like they're crazy. They might even put you away...", (pg. 346).

As for the fact that we've yet to see the implementation of anti-gravity technology in any white-world US weapon's systems is reasonably explained away by the fact that you'd want to keep that sort of technology up your sleeve. Do you really think the US military would risk that sort of technology (the most significant advancement in weapon's technology since the splitting of the atom) falling into the hands of, say, the Chinese and/or Russians?

I see. So, it was alright to test such things in the public domain in the 1940's but since then its had to be kept secret?

Lets step to one side a moment and look at human nature. Mankind has never developed a weapons system and not used it. Its why we are such efficient killing machines. Yes there have been improvements on the weapons we have, and changes to delivery systems but still the fact remains that once something is useable, its used.

What you are suggesting is that the US (and the Nazis before them) have had a technology so revolutionary that it could potentially have changed the course of human development in the past 50 years forwarded American military dominance and probably bought about the early end of the cold war in a similar manner to the development of stealth technology, but has instead chosen to sit on it and stifle any possible further development.

Your point about it not being in the hands of the Russians/Chinese is a moot one too, because with the information they gained out of Germany in '45, together with their own science means that in 50 years they would almost certainly have managed to develop such a thing themselves militarily - unless you believe that the inhabitants of those two countries have intellectual deficiences compared to the inhabitants of the US? - oh and as for cost, before you argue that point - it means nothing in military research in real terms. Governments procure defense spending regardless of outside factors.

I'm sorry but your arguments can be reasonably explained away. And you STILL have not addressed the ground trace elements left behind that were gathered by other sources.

I see. So, it was alright to test such things in the public domain in the 1940's but since then its had to be kept secret?

The Nazis were hardly developing and testing anti-gravity technology in the open - significant resources were put into black-world research projects.

Lets step to one side a moment and look at human nature. Mankind has never developed a weapons system and not used it. Its why we are such efficient killing machines. Yes there have been improvements on the weapons we have, and changes to delivery systems but still the fact remains that once something is useable, its used.

That throw-away statement's neither here nor there.

What you are suggesting is that the US (and the Nazis before them) have had a technology so revolutionary that it could potentially have changed the course of human development in the past 50 years forwarded American military dominance and probably bought about the early end of the cold war in a similar manner to the development of stealth technology, but has instead chosen to sit on it and stifle any possible further development.

As one of the aerospace-industry insiders that Nick Cook interviews, for his book "The Hunt for Zero Point", points out, "...the aerospace and defence industry is inherently conservative. It doesn't like change. This...knowledge, if you can call it that, is dangerous stuff. It's change with a capital C and it's not easy to get your head around. The aerospace and defence industry says it likes people who think out of the box, because they're the guys who give us the breakthroughs...radar, the bomb, stealth and that. But think this far out and they look at you and like they're crazy. They might even put you away...", (pg. 346).

Your point about it not being in the hands of the Russians/Chinese is a moot one too, because with the information they gained out of Germany in '45, together with their own science means that in 50 years they would almost certainly have managed to develop such a thing themselves militarily - unless you believe that the inhabitants of those two countries have intellectual deficiences compared to the inhabitants of the US? - oh and as for cost, before you argue that point - it means nothing in military research in real terms. Governments procure defense spending regardless of outside factors.

Had the Russians themselves, in the years immediately following the end of WWII, developed anti-gravity technology, word of it would certainly have come in the early 90s (with the end of the Cold War). Nothing of the sort has come out, as it so happens.


[edit on 1-11-2006 by Egotosum]

Originally posted by Egotosum
The Nazis were hardly developing and testing anti-gravity technology in the open - significant resources were put into black-world research projects.

Oh right. so because its black-world that makes all the difference because it will always stay there. Right. So in other words, you decry the existence of UFO's but at the same time cannot prove anything because of the convinient black-world tag (hey I can use bold formatting too - wow!). Useful that.

That throw-away statement's neither here nor there.

Actually, that "throw away statement" is more relevant than anything else I posted. Weapons, and weapon systems get used. They don't get shoved in the back of hangars to be rolled out to occasionally freak out policemen. Sure, the US government played with F-117's for a fair few years in the quiet of Tonopath test range and at night, but oddly when they decided the systems needed testing along with everything else, they carted them out in to the cold light of day. Your premise that this is so out of the ordinary is, to be honest, old hat, because technology has advanced so much in the past 50 years that if someone wheeled out anti-grav now my money is on the fact that it wouldn't shock anyone at all.

As one of the aerospace-industry insiders that Nick Cook interviews, for his book "The Hunt for Zero Point", points out, "...the aerospace and defence industry is inherently conservative. It doesn't like change. This...knowledge, if you can call it that, is dangerous stuff. It's change with a capital C and it's not easy to get your head around. The aerospace and defence industry says it likes people who think out of the box, because they're the guys who give us the breakthroughs...radar, the bomb, stealth and that. But think this far out and they look at you and like they're crazy. They might even put you away...", (pg. 346).

This is an age of laser missile defense systems, scientists saying they have thrown particles back in time and teleported light particles across a room, while Stephen Hawkins and his ilk openly postulate on interstellar travel via wormholes, space warping and the possibilities of multiple dimensions. Anti Grav? We've all seen it on Star Trek. Hell it wouldn't shock anyone. It would be welcomed as a useful tool that made life easier. You do like plugging the book though. Are you Nick Cook by any chance?

Had the Russians themselves, in the years immediately following the end of WWII, developed anti-gravity technology, word of it would certainly have come in the early 90s (with the end of the Cold War). Nothing of the sort has come out, as it so happens.

Why? If the US can keep it secret I'm damn sure the Russians could. I don't think the collapse of communism made everything in Russia suddenly totally transparent - do you?

Actually, that "throw away statement" is more relevant than anything else I posted. Weapons, and weapon systems get used. They don't get shoved in the back of hangars to be rolled out to occasionally freak out policemen. Sure, the US government played with F-117's for a fair few years in the quiet of Tonopath test range and at night, but oddly when they decided the systems needed testing along with everything else, they carted them out in to the cold light of day. Your premise that this is so out of the ordinary is, to be honest, old hat, because technology has advanced so much in the past 50 years that if someone wheeled out anti-grav now my money is on the fact that it wouldn't shock anyone at all.

Once you've deployed a weapon's system, in the white world, you've essentially given foes, and potential foes alike, the oppurtunity to develop countermeasures against it. What better way to mask such a revolutionary weapon's system than continually test and improve on the technology in plain sight?

This is an age of laser missile defense systems, scientists saying they have thrown particles back in time and teleported light particles across a room, while Stephen Hawkins and his ilk openly postulate on interstellar travel via wormholes, space warping and the possibilities of multiple dimensions. Anti Grav? We've all seen it on Star Trek. Hell it wouldn't shock anyone. It would be welcomed as a useful tool that made life easier. You do like plugging the book though. Are you Nick Cook by any chance?

It's a valid point, from Cook's book, that you're not seeing - namely, that, there are many individuals within the aerospace and defence industry that would end up losing a great deal, financially, were such technology to come out of the shadows.

Why? If the US can keep it secret I'm damn sure the Russians could. I don't think the collapse of communism made everything in Russia suddenly totally transparent - do you?

Had the Russians, in the Cold War years, been up to something (something as revolutionary as developing anti-gravity technology), we would've certainly heard about it in the chaotic early 90s.

Egotosum, I just happened to see that you resorted to posting yet another 'little green men' gibe in another thread. How many is that now?

It's clear you're not even going to bother to discuss the details of the "Lonnie Zamora" case. That's very understandable, seeing as you don't have any details about it.

Next time when trying to prove your theory that 'all UFO's are black projects', I suggest picking a case where there are no eyewitness accounts of small humanoids and small footprints. That might make it a bit easier for you to begin with.

Originally posted by Strawberry_Icecream
Egotosum, I just happened to see that you resorted to posting yet another 'little green men' gibe in another thread. How many is that now?

It's clear you're not even going to bother to discuss the details of the "Lonnie Zamora" case. That's very understandable, seeing as you don't have any details about it.

Next time when trying to prove your theory that 'all UFO's are black projects', I suggest picking a case where there are no eyewitness accounts of small humanoids and small footprints. That might make it a bit easier for you to begin with.

Ok, let's have a brief look at the generally agreed-upon details of what Zamora said he saw:-

On April 24, 1964, whilst chasing a speeding driver, Zamora heard a loud sound. He then went to inspect the source of the "explosion".

He then witnessed what he described as a "bright, blue-white cone of flame", accompanied by a continual loud roaring sound.

Soon enough, Zamora came across a white, shiny oval object resting on the ground. He then noticed two human-like figures near the object.

According to Zamora, the two "figures" wore white overalls and were relatively close to the object on its northwest side as if inspecting it.

One of the figures, Zamora says, turned around to look at him. Apparently the beings were about the size of boys but, for all intents and purposes, normal in shape. They were shorter than the small bush they were standing next to, later measured at being about 5 feet high.

As he drove closer to the object, less than 100 feet from the craft, he got out of the car for a closer look. Zamora heard two or perhaps three loud thumping sounds, "like someone hammering or shutting a door or doors".

--------

Now, if you accept, for a second, that Zamora's guess-timation of the size of the "figures" he saw (and where exactly they were standing) was made in a state of shock, then the evidence seemingly points to a straightfoward sighting of a black-world test craft (of terrestrial origin).

Which parts of Zamora's testimony points to a sighting of an extra-terrestrial craft, and it's extra-terrestrial occupants - the bit about the estimated size of the "figures" that Zamora says he saw.

Originally posted by Egotosum

Now, if you accept, for a second, that Zamora's guess-timation of the size of the "figures" he saw (and where exactly they were standing) was made in a state of shock, then the evidence seemingly points to a straightfoward sighting of a black-world test craft (of terrestrial origin).

Which parts of Zamora's testimony points to a sighting of an extra-terrestrial craft, and it's extra-terrestrial occupants - the bit about the estimated size of the "figures" that Zamora says he saw.

Apart from the fact that you have contradicted yourself here as you have quoted that Zamora saw the occupants standing next to a bush, by which he judged the size of them and was measured at approximately 5 feet high.

The "state of shock" to which you refer as clouding his judgement is therefore irrelevant.

Here, read this Wikipedia - Lonnie Zamora which is a fairly concise and good description of the case. You may note that its the only file in Blue Book that was officially classed as "unexplained". I would also suggest you read the second part of the Blue Book Conclusion on the page, where Major Hector Quintanilla, the Blue Book director is quoted.

Its odd, because you are obviously trying to promote your own hypothesis into this case whilst condeming other people for doing the same thing. At best all you can do is agree to disagree, but thats at best, because your are proposing the US Air Force was flying anti-gravity craft piloted by dwarves in 1964, and that the technology has remained hidden by the US air force ever since.



[edit on 2-11-2006 by neformore]

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by Egotosum

Now, if you accept, for a second, that Zamora's guess-timation of the size of the "figures" he saw (and where exactly they were standing) was made in a state of shock, then the evidence seemingly points to a straightfoward sighting of a black-world test craft (of terrestrial origin).

Which parts of Zamora's testimony points to a sighting of an extra-terrestrial craft, and it's extra-terrestrial occupants - the bit about the estimated size of the "figures" that Zamora says he saw.

Apart from the fact that the footprints found at the scene by Zamora's colleagues were not the size of an average human male. That and the fact that the bush Zamora saw the occupants standing next to, by which he judged the size of them was measure at approximately 5 feet high. Odd that you missed this if you looked at the case properly - which its obvious you haven't done.

Here, read this Wikipedia - Lonnie Zamora which is a fairly concise and good description of the case. I would suggest you read the second part of the Blue Book Conclusion on the page, where Major Hector Quintanilla, the Blue Book director is quoted.

I left out the bit about the footprints, only because there's no photographical evidence to back up the claims of the size of the footprints and where they were found.

Here is a diagram of where the footprints were found:




The small footprints were situated at the precise place where Zamora saw the figures. And before you ask why there are no footprints near the 'ladder' imprints - there was vegetation between the ladder and the sand where the footprints were found.

If what Zamora saw was a terrestrial black project, then the occupants must have been midgets that were under 5 foot. Remember that Zamora noted that the heads of the figures were noticeably below the highest part of the bush they were standing next to. You yourself quote that the bush was measured at being about 5 feet high!

Of course you certainly have to say that Zamora was simply mistaken, or that he was in shock so he couldn't see properly, or was confused or whatever… There is only going to be one answer as far as you're concerned!

I've just refreshed my memory about the photographs…

The initial photographs were taken by Patrolman Ted Jordan when he arrived on the scene (one of the witnesses to the small footprints). He was the first person who photographed the site (within minutes of the sighting), and the only person who photographed the site on the day it happened. All other photos were taken the next day onwards.

A USAF officer requested the unprocessed film - Jordan gave it to him under the promise that it would be returned. Officials claim the pictures came out 'foggy', and this was the last anyone heard of it – no film or images were returned. The film was never mentioned in the Blue Book report.

"Makes me think maybe that thing I saw could'a come from out there somewhere, and maybe they [the government] could have figured that too" – Lonnie Zamora.

Originally posted by Strawberry_Icecream
Here is a diagram of where the footprints were found:

The small footprints were situated at the precise place where Zamora saw the figures. And before you ask why there are no footprints near the 'ladder' imprints - there was vegetation between the ladder and the sand where the footprints were found.

If what Zamora saw was a terrestrial black project, then the occupants must have been midgets that were under 5 foot. Remember that Zamora noted that the heads of the figures were noticeably below the highest part of the bush they were standing next to. You yourself quote that the bush was measured at being about 5 feet high!

Of course you certainly have to say that Zamora was simply mistaken, or that he was in shock so he couldn't see properly, or was confused or whatever… There is only going to be one answer as far as you're concerned!

Only a single portion of Zamora's testimony points towards this event being possibly of extra-terrestrial origin - yet for some strange reason, you're arguing that it's as likely that the craft was of extra-terrestrial origin than it was of terrestrial origin.

We know that the Nazis were putting significant resources, even in the latter stages of '44, into anti-gravity research, that they possibly tested a craft that utilised anti-gravity technology and that, at the end of the war, the Allies did a pretty thorough job of hoovering up advanced Nazi technology.

Then, all of a sudden, in the late 1940s, people all across the US, Europe and Russia, started seeing UFOs.

Originally posted by Egotosum

We know that the Nazis were putting significant resources, even in the latter stages of '44, into anti-gravity research, that they possibly tested a craft that utilised anti-gravity technology.

No we don't know that the Nazi's were putting resources into anti gravity work. You theorise that they were. You cannot prove that.

And now the height of the occupants has been established as being 5ft or under, you have conviniently ignored them and gone back to your "blunt" argument once again.

You aren't looking at the full case, you are scrabbling for scraps around isolated parts of it to suit your theory, and when someone comes along with a valid argument against what you've said you just return back to your own theory with no regard for anything else thats been said. Did you read the page I referred you to, and the comments by the Blue Book Director?

I have to mention that your attempts at subtely reinforcing the points you are trying to force over using bold case letters really doesn't work. Of course, we can all do it.

No we don't know that the Nazi's were putting resources into anti gravity work. You theorise that they were. You cannot prove that.

Ah, but we do - anyone familiar with Nazi research into advanced technology/weaponary would tell you the same thing. The available open-source material points to it.

And now the height of the occupants has been established as being 5ft or under, you have conviniently ignored them and gone back to your "blunt" argument once again.

You aren't looking at the full case, you are scrabbling for scraps around isolated parts of it to suit your theory, and when someone comes along with a valid argument against what you've said you just return back to your own theory with no regard for anything else thats been said. Did you read the page I referred you to, and the comments by the Blue Book Director?

I have to mention that your attempts at subtely reinforcing the points you are trying to force over using bold case letters really doesn't work. Of course, we can all do it.

Only a single portion of Zamora's testimony points towards this event being possibly of extra-terrestrial origin - yet for some strange reason, you're arguing that it's as likely that the craft was of extra-terrestrial origin than it was of terrestrial origin. Is there any particular reason for that?

Originally posted by Egotosum

Ah, but we do - anyone familiar with Nazi research into advanced technology/weaponary would tell you the same thing. The available open-source material points to it.

Actually, what the available open source material refers to is theories. It doesn;t point to, or show any direct evidence of it. You assume I'm not familiar with the suibject but I did refer to the subject in my earlier posts. Maybe you missed it? Yes the Nazi's had plans for saucer shaped aircraft on the drawing board but they were conventionally powered, either by using jets or taking effect of pitched vanes rotating around a centre cabin to create a lift effect by drawing air down under the disk to create lift. Anti-gravity wasn't part of the plan. Yes, the Nazi's had some projects ahead of the Allies at the end of WW2 but Anti-Grav wasn't one of them.

Only a single portion of Zamora's testimony points towards this event being possibly of extra-terrestrial origin - yet for some strange reason, you're arguing that it's as likely that the craft was of extra-terrestrial origin than it was of terrestrial origin. Is there any particular reason for that?

Yes. Its because a serving police officer with numerous years experience put forward his own witness testimony of what he saw, and it was backed up by physical ground evidence and supporting surrounding witness testimony. If he had witnessed a crime being committed - and he invariably did during his career - with similar supporting testimony (albeit not so unusual) his word would have been taken for granted and people would have been convicted for it.

So when the guy says he saw an unusual craft and two occupants under 5ft in height. My money is on the fact thats exactly what he saw.

So, I go back to the question - were the powers that be using midgets/dwarves to fly their super secret aircraft that they have decided to keep hidden for the past 42 years?

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by Egotosum

Ah, but we do - anyone familiar with Nazi research into advanced technology/weaponary would tell you the same thing. The available open-source material points to it.

Actually, what the available open source material refers to is theories. It doesn;t point to, or show any direct evidence of it. You assume I'm not familiar with the suibject but I did refer to the subject in my earlier posts. Maybe you missed it? Yes the Nazi's had plans for saucer shaped aircraft on the drawing board but they were conventionally powered, either by using jets or taking effect of pitched vanes rotating around a centre cabin to create a lift effect by drawing air down under the disk to create lift. Anti-gravity wasn't part of the plan. Yes, the Nazi's had some projects ahead of the Allies at the end of WW2 but Anti-Grav wasn't one of them.

The materials Nick Cook sourced for "The Hunt for Zero Point", for example, not only indicate that the Nazis were well along the road to developing a full-sized craft that would utilise anti-gravity technology, but that the so-called "foo fighters" that Allied pilots were seeing over the skies of Europe in the latter stages of WWII, were essentially UAV prototypes that utilised such technology.

Yes. Its because a serving police officer with numerous years experience put forward his own witness testimony of what he saw, and it was backed up by physical ground evidence and supporting surrounding witness testimony. If he had witnessed a crime being committed - and he invariably did during his career - with similar supporting testimony (albeit not so unusual) his word would have been taken for granted and people would have been convicted for it.

So when the guy says he saw an unusual craft and two occupants under 5ft in height. My money is on the fact thats exactly what he saw.

So, I go back to the question - were the powers that be using midgets/dwarves to fly their super secret aircraft that they have decided to keep hidden for the past 42 years?

Did Zamora, himself, not testify to being in a state of shock, after the event? Eyewitness testimony's historically been shown to be the weakest evidence - in so far as, eyewitnesses tend to forget the finer details of an event. It's entirely possible that Zamora had the general details of the event committed to memory (the shape and characteristics of the craft, and the general look of the figures), but not the finer details of, for example, the height of the figures.

From the moment I saw this thread I knew Nick Cook would feature in it.

That Channel 4 documentary really annoyed me because of the way it recreated the Zamorra sighting. There is plenty of eyewitness testimony describing the craft as ovoid, NOT disc-shaped, yet in order to fit in with Cook's "test craft" theory, all this is just thrown away as though it never existed. The CGI animation of the craft used in what I certainly would NOT call a "reconstruction" looked nothing like that described by all the people who actually saw it at the time, but was designed to fit in with the kind of craft that Cook was after.

If you've read the book you will know that Cook was set off on his wild goose chase by someone unknown leaving a photograph or document on his desk. WTF? Either he himself is a disinfo agent, or he is being used by them. The Abe Simpson-alike "old-timer testimony" in the programme "yeah, we had plenty of secret craft in those days, we used to call them 'air-bubbles' and you had to wear an onion on your belt to get 'em to work..." was just laughable. And almost certainly disinfo.

There are very few programmes that get on mainstream TV that tell it like it is. That was not one of them.

This is not to say that Schauberger's work is not valuable - it is, and it deserves disinterment and re-evaluation. But trying to shoehorn the Nazi UFO theory (on which, for me, the jury is out) into the Zamorra case only works if you're prepared to ignore the original data. And that's intellectually dishonest.

And if the footprints found were tiny, how then can Zamorra be mistaken about the size of the craft's occupants?

You also say:

Only a single portion of Zamora's testimony points towards this event being possibly of extra-terrestrial origin

That's assuming that we had craft of that nature back then. I think this is a pretty big assumption that contradicts most of the testimony we have that purports to be from the black world.

One of the assumptions that people make is that the mere existence of alien life is improbable, let alone their developing the technology to come here. I think these assumptions are pre-Copernican and incorrect. You also seem to think that UFOs only arrived after 1947. This shows a woeful ignorance of the subject which it is not my duty to correct.

One of the assumptions that people make is that the mere existence of alien life is improbable, let alone their developing the technology to come here. I think these assumptions are pre-Copernican and incorrect. You also seem to think that UFOs only arrived after 1947. This shows a woeful ignorance of the subject which it is not my duty to correct.

What a lot of people conveniently forget, is that the number of UFO sightings literally exploded in the late 40s.