Will be with a Freemason Member on a trip for a week

Freemasonry starts off as a workman's guild, a labour union, from the middle ages.

While this is the most generally accepted theory for the birth of Masonry it is not
necessarily the correct one. As more information becomes available IMO the birth
of Modern Masonry appears to have come from several possible sources and only
after 1717 to have gelled into what it is today.
Could it have at sometime engendered a plan for unification of european governments
possibly, i might ever go so far as to say probably. During certain periods there have been several of thsi type "plan". Had not The Arch Duke Ferdinand (i think thats right)
been assasinated the world might have a different look today. Remember that all the
major royal houses were and still are closely related. There is but one house not yet
represented and that is but one death and one marraige away.

Picture if you will a United European Continent including the UK( that is in fact United).
led by a "Council of Princes" made up of Princes of cultural entities not political ones.
with a King/President/ enter title of choice here, that represents actually represents
the people, like Pharoh and David, and Solomon, and Arthur, were said to.

This is a government that is exactly as our government in the US was envisioned
as being, with each member of the House and Senate representing their part of the combined culture and the President representing/ being the go to person for the people. The combined members of Congress being the law makers and the President being the voice and protector of the people.
Obviously it didnt work out that way, We ended up with the best politicians money could buy. What we need in the words of Samuel Clemens is more Statesmen,

"The word 'statesman' simply means a dead politician. And the world needs more statesmen!"

Originally posted by greywolf1

Freemasonry starts off as a workman's guild, a labour union, from the middle ages.

While this is the most generally accepted theory for the birth of Masonry it is not
necessarily the correct one. As more information becomes available IMO the birth
of Modern Masonry appears to have come from several possible sources and only
after 1717 to have gelled into what it is today.

I think the reason that this theory is generally accepted is because it is the correct one, or at least the primary one. There were other influences on the development of freemasonry, e.g. the evolution of the 'Speculative' freemason, but as a stand-alone simple statement there's nothing wrong with the above.

There has actually been very little new information come to light recently about the history of the Craft, but much speculation on the existing information abounds. "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" led the way, as a 'What If' book it makes for fascinating reading but, like a lot of its sucessors, relies too heavily on assumptions in order to make the theory fit. The Templar theories are in a similar vein - informed speculation is about the best we will have at this stage due to the lack of hard evidence on the matter.

BTW don't get too hung up on 1717 - it's a milestone alright but the modern structure of freemasonry evolved from before that time to well after.

[edit on 11/13/06 by Trinityman]

"Holy Blood, Holy Grail" led the way, as a 'What If' book it makes for fascinating reading but, like a lot of its sucessors, relies too heavily on assumptions in order to make the theory fit.

HBHG was the first Block Buster book to present the Mason/Templar and Jeshua/Magdalene/family connections (real or theoretical) , It was not the first. There
are several both before and since to explore both of these ideas.

While I am aware that The Masonic Brotherhood existed long before 1717 (as I recall Ashmole was initated around 1669, and that his writings indicate that at the time
fellowcraft or Fellow of the Craft was the highest "common" degree with Master being
truely Master of Lodges.

1717 was IMHO a critical turning point in Masonic History. First it saw the division
of Masonry. This division can still be seen today in the seperation of York and Scottish Rite Masonry. The ( some say spurious) creation of Grand Lodge England, The 4 London lodges, instigated a recall and destruction of all written records
by the lodges of Scotland ( reminicent of the recall and destruction of Templar records prior to 9-13-1307.) The Lodges of Scotland denouncing the betrayers of London and the declaration of the Scottish confederation (some time later) as The
Grand Lodge of ALL[/] England. Later The United Grand Lodge of England ( IMO UGLE is just about as oxymoronic as is UK).

The events of 1717 also saw the disassociation ( at least publically) with politics .
It is also interesting to note that the only area where there were verifiable " Guilds of Masons" ( that is people actually engaged in the art of Stone Work and building that had regularized and formal "unions" for lack of a better term was in London). As one reference Robinson could find none in the area in which Ashmole lived and traveled.

Then there is the connections of Masonic terms , the meanings and roots of which are lost to modern Masons. Robinson (which might also read as Robin's Son, denoting a decendant of a May Day celebration, IE: a decendant of Robin and Marion/
The King and Queen of the Festival/ Robin and any Maid/en. Also refered to by some followers of "The Church" as a Woods Colt.) draws some very interesting and suggestive parallels between these terms and the Frog, oops i mean French language.
French was until some time during the 16th century ( as I recall) the Official Court Language, meaning all proceedings were conducted in French

There is also the gravestone evidence of Scotland that shows a definate transition from uniquely Templar (the plain sword incision) to the relatively modern stones associated with Masonry.

But as I have said it ultamately rests on Faith,Belief, and unsubstantiated writings.
As does so much in these times of Ours.

Greystone1

Interesting though the conversation is, I fear we are heading far off topic. A better forum for masonic discussions of this nature is The Lodge Room UK, but in short I suspect we are in broad agreement and picking at details.

lol

let me tell you when i met my first free mason....

i did not get him drunk
i did not give him any drugs


i plainly asked what do you guys do?

his answer....
"we sit, talk, and we pay bills"

and i have realy no clue why free masons are even mentioned here, we are not secret. you can find most of the pages on the internet from a lot of lodges. and i believe some will give you info on rituals as well.....

now explain to me again why you need to grill him?