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My view of Arab-Israeli Conflict, am I wrong, if so why?
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There has been an awful lot of anti-Israeli commentary on this site about Israeli actions and the States right to exist. .This is how I see it based
on my readings, it is rather Pro-Isaeli.
The Zionist movement to reclaim Israel began between 1880 and 1900;its founder’s, believed Jews had no place in Europe. The first Zionist Congress was held in Basil Switzerland in 1897, at this congress the delegates agreed to fund settlement and an eventual Jewish homeland in Palestine.
At this time Palestine had been occupied by the Ottoman Turks for 550 years. The last independent state based in Palestine had been the ill-fated Crusader Kingdom, before that it had been the Jewish state of antiquity. No other verifiable states have existed there in the past 3100 years.
Palestine was a land, partially owned by absentee Turkish landlords, who employed impoverished Arab tenet farmers to till the land. More commonly the coastal plane was swamp or desert, totally untilled. The chief Arab population centers were near the Jordan River, the city of Gaza, the Galilee, Hiafa , and around Jerusalem, a feudal economy existed.
The Jews began a small scale migration into Palestine in the early 1900’s, they settled in along the coast and in Jerusalem, they began agriculture. They bought the land under the Turkish law in full legality and settled in areas with no Arab population building their own cities and settlements. These Jews were primarily socialists, immigrants from Russia. They were not extremely religious; they simply believed in the Jewish people and wanted to farm the land of their ancestors.
This is not to say that there were no Jews in Palestine before 1900. Indeed, according to Karl Marx, then a reporter for the NY Times, in 1854 2/3rds of the population of Jerusalem was Jewish. Jews had maintained a constant presence in Palestine since the Roman kicked them out.
In 1917 the British conquered Palestine and were initially favorable to Jewish immigration. The Balfour declaration signaled their support for a Jewish homeland in the land. At the time of the British take over it Jews made up 10-15% of the population of Palestine west of the Jordan.
After the British takeover Jews increased immigration, the first wave came from Russia, these Jews started the Kibbutzim, and they were generally a continuation of socialist farmers. In the late 20’s a wave of Polish Jews began to settle in and expand cities such as Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem. In the early and mid 30’s a wave of German Jews began coming to escape Nazi oppression; these Jews were highly educated and further contributed to society.
During this period improved economic conditions brought many Arab immigrants into the British mandate areas in search of work. These Arabs were stirred by nationalist movements to resent the Jews, anti-Jewish violence broke out in 1921, 1929(Hebron Massacre), and 1936. This was totally unprovoked as Jews were not stealing Arab land, they were simply immigrating into the region establishing their own communities, and there is no record of violence against Arabs in this time period.
The British not wanting to antagonize the Arab population ended Jewish immigration, and split Palestine, by removing all land east of the Jordan River, creating trans-Jordan in the 1920’s. The British turned back thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler, back to Europe and to their deaths in Hitler’s extermination camps. The Jews formed three organs of self defense. The centrist official Haganah, and the rightist terror groups Irgun and Stern Gang.
After the war the Jews the Arabs and the British committed violence and terror against each other. The violence culminated in the Irgun attack on the King David Hotel, after which the Brits decided they had had enough and turned the issue over to the UN. During this time the British had also kept thousands of holocaust survivors in concentration camps on Cyprus.
In 1947 the UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, the Jews instantly accepted, but the Arabs were vehemently opposed to any partition, they wanted the Jews out.
The Jewish state was considerably smaller then the current Israel, the Arabs received a larger West Bank, a larger Gaza Strip, and the western Galilee. Jerusalem was to be an international city. The Jews numbered 510,000 in their part of the partition; the Arabs numbered 300,000, the Jews had a clear majority. The Jews also outnumbered Muslim Arabs in Jerusalem 100,000 to 80,000. There were also a further 650,000 European Jews many of them holocaust survivors waiting to immigrate into Israel. Had the Arabs allowed it, there would have been no problems, all the current problems stem from their decision to illegally oppose the UN resolution.
The Palestine Arabs immediately launched a war of aggression under the command of the Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem. They blockaded Jerusalem attacking convoys carrying food, attempting to starve the city. They also attacked Jewish settlements, while the British did nothing.
In May 1948 the British finally quit Palestine, Israel was officially declared on May 14th that same day 5 Arab countries declared war and invaded Palestine and Israel. There has been much comment on the reasons as to why so many Palestinians fled their homes. One side claims that Jews forced them out. They site the atrocity committed by the Irgun at Deir Yassin. Others state that they left at the behest of the Arabs expecting to come back after the Jews were exterminated, and claim the entire country. The answer must lie somewhere in the middle. Deir Yassin was committed in an environment of atrocities on both sides, the Arab population was in resistance with the stated aim of destroying Israel, massacres in and around Jerusalem and at Kfar Etzion, Arab armies were advancing toward Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Despite this the Irgun was directly confronted by the Haganah over the massacre and was dismantled, in stark contrast to the current Palestinian actions against terror groups. Many Arabs fled in fear, but many also left to join the Arab irregulars fighting Israel, and simply to get out of the way of the fighting expecting to come back in short order. The main culprit in their suffering to this day is the stubborn refusal of Arabs to recognize Israel. They are to blame, for using their fellow Arabs as a propaganda front, to throw attention off their own corrupt regimes. They have nothing to gain from the conflicts resolution.
Israel ended up winning the war, and surviving with more land then was initially given it. The Arabs nations did not give the Palestine Arabs a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Palestinians did not seem to care about this occupation of their land by Jordan and Egypt. Their violence was focused on Israel even then, despite occupation by other powers. They committed terrorist attacks against Israeli school children. Their aim was always the destruction of Israel, and the majority of Arabs still want that destruction.
If I am wrong please explain why, and I will change my view, by the way I am not religious so care nothing about what God gave whom, mine is a totally secular account.
The Zionist movement to reclaim Israel began between 1880 and 1900;its founder’s, believed Jews had no place in Europe. The first Zionist Congress was held in Basil Switzerland in 1897, at this congress the delegates agreed to fund settlement and an eventual Jewish homeland in Palestine.
At this time Palestine had been occupied by the Ottoman Turks for 550 years. The last independent state based in Palestine had been the ill-fated Crusader Kingdom, before that it had been the Jewish state of antiquity. No other verifiable states have existed there in the past 3100 years.
Palestine was a land, partially owned by absentee Turkish landlords, who employed impoverished Arab tenet farmers to till the land. More commonly the coastal plane was swamp or desert, totally untilled. The chief Arab population centers were near the Jordan River, the city of Gaza, the Galilee, Hiafa , and around Jerusalem, a feudal economy existed.
The Jews began a small scale migration into Palestine in the early 1900’s, they settled in along the coast and in Jerusalem, they began agriculture. They bought the land under the Turkish law in full legality and settled in areas with no Arab population building their own cities and settlements. These Jews were primarily socialists, immigrants from Russia. They were not extremely religious; they simply believed in the Jewish people and wanted to farm the land of their ancestors.
This is not to say that there were no Jews in Palestine before 1900. Indeed, according to Karl Marx, then a reporter for the NY Times, in 1854 2/3rds of the population of Jerusalem was Jewish. Jews had maintained a constant presence in Palestine since the Roman kicked them out.
In 1917 the British conquered Palestine and were initially favorable to Jewish immigration. The Balfour declaration signaled their support for a Jewish homeland in the land. At the time of the British take over it Jews made up 10-15% of the population of Palestine west of the Jordan.
After the British takeover Jews increased immigration, the first wave came from Russia, these Jews started the Kibbutzim, and they were generally a continuation of socialist farmers. In the late 20’s a wave of Polish Jews began to settle in and expand cities such as Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem. In the early and mid 30’s a wave of German Jews began coming to escape Nazi oppression; these Jews were highly educated and further contributed to society.
During this period improved economic conditions brought many Arab immigrants into the British mandate areas in search of work. These Arabs were stirred by nationalist movements to resent the Jews, anti-Jewish violence broke out in 1921, 1929(Hebron Massacre), and 1936. This was totally unprovoked as Jews were not stealing Arab land, they were simply immigrating into the region establishing their own communities, and there is no record of violence against Arabs in this time period.
The British not wanting to antagonize the Arab population ended Jewish immigration, and split Palestine, by removing all land east of the Jordan River, creating trans-Jordan in the 1920’s. The British turned back thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler, back to Europe and to their deaths in Hitler’s extermination camps. The Jews formed three organs of self defense. The centrist official Haganah, and the rightist terror groups Irgun and Stern Gang.
After the war the Jews the Arabs and the British committed violence and terror against each other. The violence culminated in the Irgun attack on the King David Hotel, after which the Brits decided they had had enough and turned the issue over to the UN. During this time the British had also kept thousands of holocaust survivors in concentration camps on Cyprus.
In 1947 the UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, the Jews instantly accepted, but the Arabs were vehemently opposed to any partition, they wanted the Jews out.
The Jewish state was considerably smaller then the current Israel, the Arabs received a larger West Bank, a larger Gaza Strip, and the western Galilee. Jerusalem was to be an international city. The Jews numbered 510,000 in their part of the partition; the Arabs numbered 300,000, the Jews had a clear majority. The Jews also outnumbered Muslim Arabs in Jerusalem 100,000 to 80,000. There were also a further 650,000 European Jews many of them holocaust survivors waiting to immigrate into Israel. Had the Arabs allowed it, there would have been no problems, all the current problems stem from their decision to illegally oppose the UN resolution.
The Palestine Arabs immediately launched a war of aggression under the command of the Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem. They blockaded Jerusalem attacking convoys carrying food, attempting to starve the city. They also attacked Jewish settlements, while the British did nothing.
In May 1948 the British finally quit Palestine, Israel was officially declared on May 14th that same day 5 Arab countries declared war and invaded Palestine and Israel. There has been much comment on the reasons as to why so many Palestinians fled their homes. One side claims that Jews forced them out. They site the atrocity committed by the Irgun at Deir Yassin. Others state that they left at the behest of the Arabs expecting to come back after the Jews were exterminated, and claim the entire country. The answer must lie somewhere in the middle. Deir Yassin was committed in an environment of atrocities on both sides, the Arab population was in resistance with the stated aim of destroying Israel, massacres in and around Jerusalem and at Kfar Etzion, Arab armies were advancing toward Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Despite this the Irgun was directly confronted by the Haganah over the massacre and was dismantled, in stark contrast to the current Palestinian actions against terror groups. Many Arabs fled in fear, but many also left to join the Arab irregulars fighting Israel, and simply to get out of the way of the fighting expecting to come back in short order. The main culprit in their suffering to this day is the stubborn refusal of Arabs to recognize Israel. They are to blame, for using their fellow Arabs as a propaganda front, to throw attention off their own corrupt regimes. They have nothing to gain from the conflicts resolution.
Israel ended up winning the war, and surviving with more land then was initially given it. The Arabs nations did not give the Palestine Arabs a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Palestinians did not seem to care about this occupation of their land by Jordan and Egypt. Their violence was focused on Israel even then, despite occupation by other powers. They committed terrorist attacks against Israeli school children. Their aim was always the destruction of Israel, and the majority of Arabs still want that destruction.
If I am wrong please explain why, and I will change my view, by the way I am not religious so care nothing about what God gave whom, mine is a totally secular account.
I would also like to say something about the cliam the Zionism was a racist movement based upon the Jewish religions cliam that the Jews are a chosen
people. Zionism was a national return movement founded by secular Jews, from Russia, Austria, and Germany, they believed that Jews would not be safe
unless they had a state in which Jews ruled over themselves. These Jews were not religious, and indeed religious Jews were opposed to Zionism on the
grounds that only the messiah could facilitate the return of the Jews to Israel. No concept of choseness permeated their thinking, only simple
survival, as at this time assimilation was not working.
Israel can hardly be a racist state as it is among the most diverse countries ethnically in the world. Arab Jews, Persian Jews, Turkic Jews, Indian Jews, European Jews, and Ethiopian Jews all live there. You would be hard pressed to find much of a physical difference between an Arab Jew and an Arab Muslim. More then half of all Israeli Jews are not of European Ashkenazic origin.
The question has arisen why the Jews could not settle for a binational state then or now. Historically Jews have lived for thousands of years under the whim of others. Unless the Jews had full sovernghty over the state they could not garuantee that all Jews from everywhere could immigrate, and that they would not be kicked out or killed by the more numerous Arabs.
Secondly states with two or more large religious communities never work and usually degenerate into civil war. Look at Iraq, Lebanon, Half a dozen African states(Sudan), India, Philipines, Russia, and the current violence in France when different ethnic and religious cultures clash, in Europe it will just get worse. Iraq before was dominated by Sunni Saddam as soon as he was removed civil war is luming. See South AfriKa, or Zimbabwe, they were dominated by whites, when that ended they became dominated by blacks, and now all the whites are leaving, there will be practically none left within 20 years. Look at India were every month there clashes between Muslim and Hindu that kill thousands in a year, just India is so huge that you never hear about it, or the Muslim separtist rebels in Western China. Multi-ethnic/religious states never work unless one community totally dominates the other, to the others detriment usually.
Zionism simply tries to create a home for Jews it did not kick anyone out of anything untill the fighting started, but Israel would be foolish to let them back in, it would cause disunity and disaster for the country.
Israel can hardly be a racist state as it is among the most diverse countries ethnically in the world. Arab Jews, Persian Jews, Turkic Jews, Indian Jews, European Jews, and Ethiopian Jews all live there. You would be hard pressed to find much of a physical difference between an Arab Jew and an Arab Muslim. More then half of all Israeli Jews are not of European Ashkenazic origin.
The question has arisen why the Jews could not settle for a binational state then or now. Historically Jews have lived for thousands of years under the whim of others. Unless the Jews had full sovernghty over the state they could not garuantee that all Jews from everywhere could immigrate, and that they would not be kicked out or killed by the more numerous Arabs.
Secondly states with two or more large religious communities never work and usually degenerate into civil war. Look at Iraq, Lebanon, Half a dozen African states(Sudan), India, Philipines, Russia, and the current violence in France when different ethnic and religious cultures clash, in Europe it will just get worse. Iraq before was dominated by Sunni Saddam as soon as he was removed civil war is luming. See South AfriKa, or Zimbabwe, they were dominated by whites, when that ended they became dominated by blacks, and now all the whites are leaving, there will be practically none left within 20 years. Look at India were every month there clashes between Muslim and Hindu that kill thousands in a year, just India is so huge that you never hear about it, or the Muslim separtist rebels in Western China. Multi-ethnic/religious states never work unless one community totally dominates the other, to the others detriment usually.
Zionism simply tries to create a home for Jews it did not kick anyone out of anything untill the fighting started, but Israel would be foolish to let them back in, it would cause disunity and disaster for the country.
One more thing many people here say that the media and government of the USA are run and influenced by Jews, some even say that the media in Europe is
run and influenced by Jews.
I cannot deny that the media in America has some significant Jewish ownership and influence. In Europe I really dont see this as there are less then 2.5 million Jews out of over 750 million people, thats 1 in every 300. And the European media really strikes me as rather anti-Israeli especially on the left. It does depend on what you believe of course, how you see the media's perspective. Europe overall is far less favorable to Israel so Iwould really need some proof to believe that European media and government is somehow influenced by Jews.
In the USA many people believe that Jews run the government through AIPAC and other lobbies and thus get all the US aid and support. The truth is Israel gets more support from two non-Jewish lobbies the it does from Jews. The lobby of over 50 million evangelical christians plays the biggest role, and supports Israel in the congress and elsewhere for biblical reasons.
The second lobby is the Defense Contractors lobby, whose clients recieve more then 2 billion dollars on behalf of Israel. The US gives Israel 2+ billion in military aid, 90% of it goes to US defence contracters who biuld and then send the weapons to Israel. Without the Israeli grants many facilites would be shut down and profits would decline. Thus at both the local and company level defence contractors lobby the gov to give Israel military aid. Ask yourself who is really benefiting from the aid besides Israel, obviously its the contractors who build the F16's, M16's, bombs, shells, you name it. Its basically a subsidy from the US tax payer to the US defence industry with Israel getting the hardware, instead of the US, same goes for the 2 billion in military aid Egypt gets, they are both interconnected.
Now the media does have a Jewish influence, certainly Jews are a wealthy and influential minority the world over. But how many US media companies are owned or influenced by Jews. In telivision there are many Jews but a majority no. CNN is operated by Ted Turner not Jewish, NBC is operated by General Electric, ABC is operated by Disney which was CEO'd by a jew Eisner but no longer. Fox probably the most most pro-Israeli news corp and is operated by Media Corp CEO Murdoch who is not Jewish. CBS is part of Viacom which is CEO'd by Edgar Bronfman i think, who is Jewish. In print media some influantial Jews are Mort Zuckerman and Sumner Redstone(also MTV). Still this constitutes an over-representation but not even close to a majority maybe 10-15% at most of the US media.
In hollywood the main studios are more Jewish, Mirimax, Disney(partially), Dreamworks, but Sony, Time-Warner, Universal, Fox are not Jewish. Are there many Jewish directors, actors, producers, sure but not more then 33%, huge influence for 2% to have but not as some make out.
As for wealth, perhaps 20-25 of the 100 richest men in America are Jewish heading the list, Paul Allen Microsoft Co-founder, Steve Ballmer MC CEO, Larry Ellison Oracle CEO/founder, Michael Dell Dell CEO/founder, George Soros investor, Icahn investor, Larry Page and Sergey Brin Google founders, Andy Grove Intel CEO, tech boom in the US was seriously aided by Jews as Microsoft, Oracle, Sun-Microsystems, Dell, Cisco, Fairchild Semi-conductor, Intel, Google, Ebay, many more, were all Jewish or part Jewish.
People who have at least one Jewish parent have also won 23% of all Nobel prizes and 27% of all scientific prizes, this being only .25% of the worlds population. 28% of all mathematical Fields medals, 28% of all Turing Awards in computer science. In physics alone giants, Niels Bohr, Albert Einstien, Wolfgang Pauli, Hans Bethe, albert Michelson, Feynman, Leo Szilard, Oppenhiemer, Teller, Shwartz, John von Nuemann, Edward Witten,Lev Landua were all at least half Jewish.
I cannot deny that the media in America has some significant Jewish ownership and influence. In Europe I really dont see this as there are less then 2.5 million Jews out of over 750 million people, thats 1 in every 300. And the European media really strikes me as rather anti-Israeli especially on the left. It does depend on what you believe of course, how you see the media's perspective. Europe overall is far less favorable to Israel so Iwould really need some proof to believe that European media and government is somehow influenced by Jews.
In the USA many people believe that Jews run the government through AIPAC and other lobbies and thus get all the US aid and support. The truth is Israel gets more support from two non-Jewish lobbies the it does from Jews. The lobby of over 50 million evangelical christians plays the biggest role, and supports Israel in the congress and elsewhere for biblical reasons.
The second lobby is the Defense Contractors lobby, whose clients recieve more then 2 billion dollars on behalf of Israel. The US gives Israel 2+ billion in military aid, 90% of it goes to US defence contracters who biuld and then send the weapons to Israel. Without the Israeli grants many facilites would be shut down and profits would decline. Thus at both the local and company level defence contractors lobby the gov to give Israel military aid. Ask yourself who is really benefiting from the aid besides Israel, obviously its the contractors who build the F16's, M16's, bombs, shells, you name it. Its basically a subsidy from the US tax payer to the US defence industry with Israel getting the hardware, instead of the US, same goes for the 2 billion in military aid Egypt gets, they are both interconnected.
Now the media does have a Jewish influence, certainly Jews are a wealthy and influential minority the world over. But how many US media companies are owned or influenced by Jews. In telivision there are many Jews but a majority no. CNN is operated by Ted Turner not Jewish, NBC is operated by General Electric, ABC is operated by Disney which was CEO'd by a jew Eisner but no longer. Fox probably the most most pro-Israeli news corp and is operated by Media Corp CEO Murdoch who is not Jewish. CBS is part of Viacom which is CEO'd by Edgar Bronfman i think, who is Jewish. In print media some influantial Jews are Mort Zuckerman and Sumner Redstone(also MTV). Still this constitutes an over-representation but not even close to a majority maybe 10-15% at most of the US media.
In hollywood the main studios are more Jewish, Mirimax, Disney(partially), Dreamworks, but Sony, Time-Warner, Universal, Fox are not Jewish. Are there many Jewish directors, actors, producers, sure but not more then 33%, huge influence for 2% to have but not as some make out.
As for wealth, perhaps 20-25 of the 100 richest men in America are Jewish heading the list, Paul Allen Microsoft Co-founder, Steve Ballmer MC CEO, Larry Ellison Oracle CEO/founder, Michael Dell Dell CEO/founder, George Soros investor, Icahn investor, Larry Page and Sergey Brin Google founders, Andy Grove Intel CEO, tech boom in the US was seriously aided by Jews as Microsoft, Oracle, Sun-Microsystems, Dell, Cisco, Fairchild Semi-conductor, Intel, Google, Ebay, many more, were all Jewish or part Jewish.
People who have at least one Jewish parent have also won 23% of all Nobel prizes and 27% of all scientific prizes, this being only .25% of the worlds population. 28% of all mathematical Fields medals, 28% of all Turing Awards in computer science. In physics alone giants, Niels Bohr, Albert Einstien, Wolfgang Pauli, Hans Bethe, albert Michelson, Feynman, Leo Szilard, Oppenhiemer, Teller, Shwartz, John von Nuemann, Edward Witten,Lev Landua were all at least half Jewish.
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