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One Or Two Gospels In The New Testament?
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The 'Lamb's' book of life is the Bible, Terral.
And the 'Lamb's' name is in that bible 5,653 times. That book is also a scroll tightly sealed except to the one who has the authority to open it. Having the pages open doesn't mean the words are opened up to the heart.
No one yet, living in this age, has been given the 'whole' picture.
God's peace be with you, my friend.
And the 'Lamb's' name is in that bible 5,653 times. That book is also a scroll tightly sealed except to the one who has the authority to open it. Having the pages open doesn't mean the words are opened up to the heart.
No one yet, living in this age, has been given the 'whole' picture.
God's peace be with you, my friend.
Queen:
No sir. Swing - and a miss! The Lamb’s book of life is in the Lamb’s possession throughout Revelation.
The ‘fellow workers’ with Paul with names in the “book of life” (Philippians 4:3) are the “fellow workers for the kingdom of God” (Colossians 4:11) preaching the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) as members of the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29). They stand ‘before the throne’ (Rev. 7:14) and follow the Lamb “wherever He goes” (Rev. 14:4). While my statements on this topic are flying WAY over your head, there is NO WAY my name can appear in the Lamb’s book, because I am “IN” the Lamb even now – seated in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:6+7.
I am “IN” the Lamb in the ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17), while those in the Lamb’s book of life are standing before His throne AND being resurrected at the Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) to join THE BRIDE somewhere down the road. That is why the Spirit and bride say “Come” (Rev. 22:17) to those seeking the ‘water of life,’ but I have been “IN” Christ all along through obedience to Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message from the very beginning (before the foundations of the world = Eph. 1:4).
The membership here is not ready for 1/100th of what God gave me to see decades ago by His Spirit through His Living Word, as these few threads find us wading on the kiddy side of the pool. The truly funny aspect of this debate is you are NOT even in Christ Jesus, OR the Lamb, OR the Lamb’s book of life, even though you stand outside and continually mock the one who is truly,
IN Christ Jesus even now,
Terral
[edit on 8-10-2006 by Terral]
Queen >> The 'Lamb's' book of life is the Bible, Terral.
No sir. Swing - and a miss! The Lamb’s book of life is in the Lamb’s possession throughout Revelation.
“He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will NOT erase his name from the BOOK OF LIFE, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” Revelation 3:5.
“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has NOT been written from the foundation of the world in the BOOK OF LIFE of the Lamb who has been slain.” Revelation 13:8.
“And if anyone's name was NOT found written in the BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:15.
“. . . and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's BOOK OF LIFE.” Revelation 21:27.
The ‘fellow workers’ with Paul with names in the “book of life” (Philippians 4:3) are the “fellow workers for the kingdom of God” (Colossians 4:11) preaching the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) as members of the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29). They stand ‘before the throne’ (Rev. 7:14) and follow the Lamb “wherever He goes” (Rev. 14:4). While my statements on this topic are flying WAY over your head, there is NO WAY my name can appear in the Lamb’s book, because I am “IN” the Lamb even now – seated in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:6+7.
I am “IN” the Lamb in the ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17), while those in the Lamb’s book of life are standing before His throne AND being resurrected at the Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) to join THE BRIDE somewhere down the road. That is why the Spirit and bride say “Come” (Rev. 22:17) to those seeking the ‘water of life,’ but I have been “IN” Christ all along through obedience to Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message from the very beginning (before the foundations of the world = Eph. 1:4).
Annie >> No one yet, living in this age, has been given the 'whole' picture.
The membership here is not ready for 1/100th of what God gave me to see decades ago by His Spirit through His Living Word, as these few threads find us wading on the kiddy side of the pool. The truly funny aspect of this debate is you are NOT even in Christ Jesus, OR the Lamb, OR the Lamb’s book of life, even though you stand outside and continually mock the one who is truly,
IN Christ Jesus even now,
Terral
[edit on 8-10-2006 by Terral]
Originally posted by Terral
Hi HarpStrings:
The very best way to begin on all my threads is to “quote me >>
(That’s easier said than done!) After several futile attempts to quote you, I realized I had to copy/paste in Microsoft word because your response to me contained 4000 characters-which is the max amount for a newb, thus it made it impossible for me to even reply to you. And although I think I make my replies abundantly clear with reference to what you’ve written, I’ll quote where I specifically address a pertinent statement you’ve written, otherwise I’ll just summarize where I deem fit.
Harp >> Paul's Gospel is one that cause's a great confusion.
We agree.
This is because Christ was sent to Israel ‘only’ (Matt. 15:24) to offer the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc. = Gospel #1 from OP)
Let’s step back a little and look in Matthew 15:21-28. Why then do you think Jesus healed the woman’s child?
Obedience to Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 16:25) means we are ‘under grace and not under law’ (Rom. 6:14).
The issue I have is not the Scripture but the interpretation. We (man) are only free from God’s Law when we abide by God’s Law. God gave the Law to Moses for a specific reason, not to later be removed or replaced with grace. Messiah came to fulfill the Law. The Apostle Paul reminded the Churches and people of the Law. Nowhere in the Bible (that I’ve read) does it state otherwise. Once the Law is written in our hearts through Jesus, Messiah, we are in God’s grace. Meaning we please God because we worship Him the way He wants to be worshipped. Which is exactly what the Disciples and Apostle Paul are teaching us through Scripture.
Paul is also seen ‘preaching the kingdom’ (Acts 20:25) to the disciples of Acts 19:1-6 like most everyone else in Acts. These two gospel messages are accurately identified in Scripture by their directly opposing doctrinal precepts (1-8), without regard to who is preaching them.
Yes Paul is preaching of the kingdom 'to come'. And the ways we are to prepare ourselves. I do not read the Scriptures as opposing one another. I read them as flowing into one another. And the teacher being The Holy Spirit, whether it is through Paul or Mark ,et al..
There are actually four gospels presented in the New Testament, but only two have been implemented for the forgiveness of sins and the salvation of the hearers to date.
New Testament, Old Testament, four Gospels or four hundred matters naught! The point is clear without getting stuck in the mud of time lines and people. You are placing division where there should be none. 1 Corinthians 1:10
Harp >> The Bible is ONE Gospel.
No sir. You do not understand the difference in good news AND a gospel message sent FROM GOD through ‘apostles’ for the salvation of the hearers. You cannot draft an outline of precepts teaching any “ONE gospel” from the entire Bible. Good Luck! Since you refuse to simply “quote me >>” and offer opposing views, then nothing in my OP is anywhere near under attack. GL.
You quoted me and then you characterized what I stated. Isn’t this what you yourself have requested not be done? I do not read where I stated I did not understand the difference. There is no difference, no division. One Gospel, One God, One Messiah, One Truth, but many interpretations! Remember we are the Body of Christ (One) and we make up the separate parts of the body. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13.
Terral, I have an issue with the message you present, not the messenger. You write the words, oppose, attack and adversary far too much for me not to wonder what you are up to. And can you conclude that man is no longer under the law when Paul warns us of this very person/way here in (2 Thess 2:7) ?
God bless,
Terral
God Bless you too!
Hi Harp:
This is actually the lowest number of characters per post I have ever encountered anywhere on the internet. That was my same comment when first landing here at ATS. An informed member told me to make two posts and to place one behind the other. I still need to do that with a 6500 character limit. By the time you “quote >>” your debating opponent, offer an opposing argument, quote Scripture and include [quotes] and [urls] and [bolds] for everything, you are out of space very early in the reply. : 0 )
Please forgive, but we are discussing the differences or similarities between the two gospels of the NT described in the OP of this thread. Jesus healing a woman’s child is off the topic about a thousand miles.
Hold your horses. The Lord God gave Mosaic Law to ISRAEL (Rom. 9:1-4). Gentiles have never been under Mosaic Law. Rom. 2:14-15. Christ did not die for our sins to place anyone back into bondage; especially those never under the Law from the beginning.
No sir. I do not believe your position here could be more DEAD WRONG. What does Paul teach the Galatians on this topic?
Here is where the rubber meets the road in our debate right here: The ‘faith’ Paul is talking about is the “faith of Jesus” (Rom. 3:26) milled out for us at Calvary. Our only access to that faith is by ‘hearing the word concerning Christ’ (Rom. 10:17) carried by the “preacher” (Rom. 10:14). Once anyone (Jew Or Gentile) actually hears and believes (Eph. 1:13+14) our 'Gospel #2' (from OP), then “faith has come” and he is “NO LONGER” under the tutor of Mosaic Law. Most everyone has tutors in high school and college. The difference is that once you ‘graduate,’ there is no longer any need for the tutor. Mosaic Law works the same way for Jews currently held under that tutor, until they obey the gospel to find the same liberty we have “IN” Christ Jesus. Paul blows your case sky high, saying,
Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy is one of the Ten Commandments written on the stone tablets handed to Moses. Exodus 20:8. And yet, Paul teaches us right here that NO ONE is our judge for keeping the Sabbath or not keeping it, because that is part of the types and shadows of things yet to come for the body of Christ. Paul kills your theory by simply saying,
Unfortunately for your position in this debate, we are to ‘rightly divide’ (accurately handle = cut straight) the word of truth. 2Tim. 2:15. The kingdom disciples saved through 'Gospel #1' 2000 years ago were all under Mosaic Law. Matt. 5:18, James 2:10. However, everyone saved through obedience to 'Gospel #2' 2000 years ago AND to this day are NOT under Mosaic Law. Romans 6:14, Col. 2:16-17, etc.. Paul gives us another fine example here, saying,
Now, how can you sit there and say that Paul is teaching Christians to obey Mosaic Law, when he says to eat everything set before you? This passage was written with more regard for the weaker brother being offended than anything pertaining to keeping Mosaic Law.
If that were so, then my two OP lists of doctrinal precepts teaching BOTH gospel messages in the NT would not even exist. Do you see the forgiveness of sins by water (Mark 1:4) AND Christ’s shed blood (Eph. 1:7)? Yes. If your theory were correct, then we should be seeing only one method of forgiveness. We receive the Holy Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Gal. 3:2). However, the Samarians (Acts 8:17) and the disciples (Acts 19:6) are receiving the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands. Why?
[Continued]
Harp >> (That’s easier said than done!) After several futile attempts to quote you, I realized I had to copy/paste in Microsoft word because your response to me contained 4000 characters-which is the max amount for a newb, thus it made it impossible for me to even reply to you.
This is actually the lowest number of characters per post I have ever encountered anywhere on the internet. That was my same comment when first landing here at ATS. An informed member told me to make two posts and to place one behind the other. I still need to do that with a 6500 character limit. By the time you “quote >>” your debating opponent, offer an opposing argument, quote Scripture and include [quotes] and [urls] and [bolds] for everything, you are out of space very early in the reply. : 0 )
Harp >> Let’s step back a little and look in Matthew 15:21-28. Why then do you think Jesus healed the woman’s child?
Please forgive, but we are discussing the differences or similarities between the two gospels of the NT described in the OP of this thread. Jesus healing a woman’s child is off the topic about a thousand miles.
Harp >> The issue I have is not the Scripture but the interpretation. We (man) are only free from God’s Law when we abide by God’s Law. God gave the Law to Moses for a specific reason, not to later be removed or replaced with grace.
Hold your horses. The Lord God gave Mosaic Law to ISRAEL (Rom. 9:1-4). Gentiles have never been under Mosaic Law. Rom. 2:14-15. Christ did not die for our sins to place anyone back into bondage; especially those never under the Law from the beginning.
Harp >> Messiah came to fulfill the Law. The Apostle Paul reminded the Churches and people of the Law. Nowhere in the Bible (that I’ve read) does it state otherwise. Once the Law is written in our hearts through Jesus, Messiah, we are in God’s grace. Meaning we please God because we worship Him the way He wants to be worshipped. Which is exactly what the Disciples and Apostle Paul are teaching us through Scripture.
No sir. I do not believe your position here could be more DEAD WRONG. What does Paul teach the Galatians on this topic?
“But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But BEFORE faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being SHUT UP to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become OUR TUTOR to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified BY FAITH. But now that faith has come, we are NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR. For you are all sons of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:22-26.
Here is where the rubber meets the road in our debate right here: The ‘faith’ Paul is talking about is the “faith of Jesus” (Rom. 3:26) milled out for us at Calvary. Our only access to that faith is by ‘hearing the word concerning Christ’ (Rom. 10:17) carried by the “preacher” (Rom. 10:14). Once anyone (Jew Or Gentile) actually hears and believes (Eph. 1:13+14) our 'Gospel #2' (from OP), then “faith has come” and he is “NO LONGER” under the tutor of Mosaic Law. Most everyone has tutors in high school and college. The difference is that once you ‘graduate,’ there is no longer any need for the tutor. Mosaic Law works the same way for Jews currently held under that tutor, until they obey the gospel to find the same liberty we have “IN” Christ Jesus. Paul blows your case sky high, saying,
“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a SABBATH DAY -- things which are a mere SHADOW of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” Colossians 2:16-17.
Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy is one of the Ten Commandments written on the stone tablets handed to Moses. Exodus 20:8. And yet, Paul teaches us right here that NO ONE is our judge for keeping the Sabbath or not keeping it, because that is part of the types and shadows of things yet to come for the body of Christ. Paul kills your theory by simply saying,
“But if you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT UNDER THE LAW.” Gal. 5:18.
Harp >> Yes Paul is preaching of the kingdom 'to come'. And the ways we are to prepare ourselves. I do not read the Scriptures as opposing one another. I read them as flowing into one another. And the teacher being The Holy Spirit, whether it is through Paul or Mark ,et al.
Unfortunately for your position in this debate, we are to ‘rightly divide’ (accurately handle = cut straight) the word of truth. 2Tim. 2:15. The kingdom disciples saved through 'Gospel #1' 2000 years ago were all under Mosaic Law. Matt. 5:18, James 2:10. However, everyone saved through obedience to 'Gospel #2' 2000 years ago AND to this day are NOT under Mosaic Law. Romans 6:14, Col. 2:16-17, etc.. Paul gives us another fine example here, saying,
"Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake; ‘For the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains [Ps. 24:1]. If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake.” 1Corinthians 10:25-27.
Now, how can you sit there and say that Paul is teaching Christians to obey Mosaic Law, when he says to eat everything set before you? This passage was written with more regard for the weaker brother being offended than anything pertaining to keeping Mosaic Law.
Harp >> . . . There is no difference, no division. One Gospel, One God, One Messiah, One Truth, but many interpretations! Remember we are the Body of Christ (One) and we make up the separate parts of the body. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13.
If that were so, then my two OP lists of doctrinal precepts teaching BOTH gospel messages in the NT would not even exist. Do you see the forgiveness of sins by water (Mark 1:4) AND Christ’s shed blood (Eph. 1:7)? Yes. If your theory were correct, then we should be seeing only one method of forgiveness. We receive the Holy Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Gal. 3:2). However, the Samarians (Acts 8:17) and the disciples (Acts 19:6) are receiving the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands. Why?
[Continued]
There are two methods, because of the presence of the ‘two gospels’ of the NT, which you seem happy to simply merge together into one that DOES
NOT SAVE. Suppose for one minute that adding the works from Gospel #1 makes VOID (1Cor. 1:17) gospel #2. What have you done by mixing them together?
You have created your own ‘man-made’ gospel that God SENT TO NOBODY. In that case your preacher runs around heralding a ‘false’ gospel and
nobody gets saved! Christ says to Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24):
However, we just saw above that Paul teaches no one is our judge even regarding keeping the Sabbath! Who is right? Both. How? Christ is speaking in context to the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) obeying Gospel #1, while Paul is speaking in context to the mystery grace “body” (Col. 1:24) saved by Gospel #2. The fact is that my Bible ‘is’ rightly divided and yours tosses everything into "One Pot" for Harp to take out what tastes good to him.
The Mystery of Iniquity is another topic entirely. Hopefully we will take time to address things I did say in the OP of this thread concerning the ‘two gospels’ of the NT. Yes, my demeanor is a bit cold for some folks. However, I work under the command to:
I would much rather receive 1000 thanks from my brothers and sisters at the Judgment (2Cor. 5:10) for helping you stand firm and sound in the faith, than to write like a man pleaser (Gal. 1:10) that fails to serve Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) in the long run. The NT is about God gathering a Kingdom 'bride' (John 3:29) AND a Grace 'body' (Eph. 5:30+32, Rom. 12:4+5). One 'was' seen by the OT (bride as kingdom of priests = Exodus 19:6, Hosea 2:19+20) and one was not (according to revelation of the myster = Rom. 16:25 = gospel #2 for the 'body'). GL seeing the differences.
BTW, I would like to start a thread on the two different churches, but I have too many in this room already. These will fall off the front page and we can begin other topics.
God bless you,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” Matthew 5:18.
However, we just saw above that Paul teaches no one is our judge even regarding keeping the Sabbath! Who is right? Both. How? Christ is speaking in context to the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) obeying Gospel #1, while Paul is speaking in context to the mystery grace “body” (Col. 1:24) saved by Gospel #2. The fact is that my Bible ‘is’ rightly divided and yours tosses everything into "One Pot" for Harp to take out what tastes good to him.
Harp >> Terral, I have an issue with the message you present, not the messenger. You write the words, oppose, attack and adversary far too much for me not to wonder what you are up to. And can you conclude that man is no longer under the law when Paul warns us of this very person/way here in (2 Thess 2:7)?
The Mystery of Iniquity is another topic entirely. Hopefully we will take time to address things I did say in the OP of this thread concerning the ‘two gospels’ of the NT. Yes, my demeanor is a bit cold for some folks. However, I work under the command to:
“. . . preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.” 2Tim. 4:2.
“This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith.” Titus 1:13.
“These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority]]. Let no one disregard you.” Titus 2:15.
I would much rather receive 1000 thanks from my brothers and sisters at the Judgment (2Cor. 5:10) for helping you stand firm and sound in the faith, than to write like a man pleaser (Gal. 1:10) that fails to serve Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) in the long run. The NT is about God gathering a Kingdom 'bride' (John 3:29) AND a Grace 'body' (Eph. 5:30+32, Rom. 12:4+5). One 'was' seen by the OT (bride as kingdom of priests = Exodus 19:6, Hosea 2:19+20) and one was not (according to revelation of the myster = Rom. 16:25 = gospel #2 for the 'body'). GL seeing the differences.
BTW, I would like to start a thread on the two different churches, but I have too many in this room already. These will fall off the front page and we can begin other topics.
God bless you,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Originally posted by Terral
Heh . . . Please forgive my “Nanny” references, as I first read your name “QueenNannie.” From now on you are just Annie. : 0 )
Not a problem, my dear - and actually, a nanny being 'she-goat' is almost a freudian slip - albiet one which is totally involuntary.
However, I do treasure my name 'ann' since it is a name given to by the FATHER and the meaning of it is the key to many understandings.
Perhaps you are; however at this time, the Lamb is not manifested and is not been yet presented upon the altar. The true identity of the lamb is one who was slain before the foundations of the world. Therefore the sacrifice upon the cross was not a lamb. The cross achieved atonement for sins and therefore that was a he-goat
That would be impossible, because I am already “IN” the Lamb Himself.
and not a lamb. In the lingo of the ancient days, both kids and lambs were often called lambs. It is a twin goat that earned our atonement, not a lamb. A lamb's blood is our protection from the passing over of the Angel of Death. That hasn't happened yet, I don't think.
The Lamb’s book of life is for those seeking entrance into the Lamb.
The lamb's book of life has nothing to do with those who seek in this present age - the names written therein were written BEFORE the foundation of this world. They may be removed, but they were recorded long before even Abram left UR.
There is no way possible for me to be any closer to God.
That is a proud and foolish statement which makes it seems as though you are standing even closer to the throne than our LORD is. If you were that close, your teachings would be orderly and would give forth truth and hope to the reader. At the most you contradict and confuse - when it is possible to follow your course, that is.
Remember your NT is divided into a water part AND a blood part, as Christ came in water AND blood (1John 5:8).
I don't have a 'NT' as such - and all that I have from my father is not divided but is ONE. You do not fully understand the archetype of water nor of blood.
The Lamb’s book of life is for registering members from the ‘water’ dispensation, so they are made ready to be joined with the Lamb through the contract of Holy Matrimony.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
~Revelation 13:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. ~Revelation 17:8
The names were written before this age, Terral. Written down complete.
They will earn by 'works' (James 2:20-24) what God is giving us (body of Christ = Eph. 4:12) for free (Romans 6:23, Eph. 2:8+9).
There is no EARNING of anything, Terral. What you have you were given. You didn't merit it nor did you labor for it.
You should be able to realize that those already “IN” Him have no need for any book.
This I do know, since it is my life....yet there is a reason for the book, all the same. Seven scrolls sealed until the whole picture and truth of His graciousness and Mercy is revealed (in the apocalypse which is revelation) to the world.
These things become all mixed up, when you blend the entire NT into a blood/water witness account, when in truth they must be “rightly divided” (2Tim. 2:15). GL,
There is no diluted wine served at the feast. The best for last, remember?
Originally posted by Terral
BTW, I would like to start a thread on the two different churches, but I have too many in this room already.
Two different 'churches?'
Two Assemblies?
TWO?
Where the heck did you get such an idea?
Annie:
Lord – Have – Mercy. I can hardly believe the things you allow to slip out of your mouth. Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” who takes away the sin of the world.
Your rendition of Revelation 13:8 needs work:
Figure 1 shows the three witnesses of “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8), while Figure 2 shows the three witnesses of “The Logos” (Matt. 28:19). Figure 3 shows the three witnesses of this Creation (Adam) being the heavens (Invisible Universe = Adam), heaven (Adam’s Soul) and the earth (Visible Universe = Eve). The “Lamb Incarnate” (Figure 3) is the incarnation of Christ Jesus (entire Fig. 2 Realm) within “Heaven” of this universe. THEN (2000 years ago), the Lamb of God (in Heaven FROM the foundation of the world) incarnated onto “Our Earth” (Fig. 3) as “Jesus Christ” the “Lamb of God” AND the “Son of God.” Christ walked around on this earth as the Father (John 14:10+11), Son (Christ Himself) and Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1) “IN” a single walking and talking Living Tabernacle of God on this earth.
Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the entire Word Realm (Figure 2) on this earth, while John the Baptist is the incarnation of This Creation in a single living ‘man’ sent “from God” (John 1:6). God raised Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom. 10:9) and raised Him “FAR above ALL THE HEAVENS [of Fig. 3], so that He might fill all things.” Eph. 4:10. The believer is “baptized into Christ” (Gal. 3:27), which is “Christ Jesus” of Figure 2, which allows us to actively participate as “Members Of His Body” (Eph. 5:30) “IN” The Lamb of God in the center of the throne in Figure 3.
Those with names written in the Lamb’s book of life have a greater half in the heavens of This Creation AND a lesser half in the earth seeking a future joining together with Christ at the “Marriage Supper Of The Lamb” (Rev. 19:5-10). Peter, John and James are examples of souls who “are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.” Revelation 14:4. Look over to Figure 3 and note the “Body of Moses” on the “Sea of Glass” (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) standing “before the throne” (Rev. 7:14). Everyone standing upon that sea of glass has his name written in the Lamb’s book of life along with everyone destined to join them from this Visible Universe (water witness of Figure 3). I cannot possibly follow the Lamb anywhere, because I am already seated “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6 = Figure 2) with membership “IN” His “incarnation” as the “Lamb of God” (Fig. 3) AND with my life ‘hidden with Christ “IN” God’ (Col. 3:1-3 = Fig. 1). Maybe this diagram will lend assistance:
Note this diagram is very similar to the one above, except we identify the “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2 = Fig. 2) as being “IN” Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) were believers have been baptized. The Logos of Figure 2 was divided into the Father (golden above) and Holy Spirit (blue below), so that joining into a “three are into the one” (1Jn 5:8) relationships They became “God’s Son” Christ Jesus. Moving into Figure 3 we need to focus upon the “Kingdom Bride (Jn 3:29) Member” who obeyed the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, etc.) with his head looking up into the ‘Heavens’ of This Universe contained by Figure 3. That bride member has an ‘angel’ counterpart in the “Heavens” representing the same “bride” member's greater half.
The “Christ’s Body Member” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) has feet “IN” the Lamb with his heart (soul) “IN” Christ Jesus (Fig. 2) and his head (spirit) poking back into God’s Infinite Realm (Fig. 1), because he has made the 90 degree (sign of the cross) transition to look up and see his destiny in Figure 1. Here is the cool part: God raised Jesus Christ from the dead in Figure 3 on Our Earth, to raise Him up and seat Him in the very center of Figure 2 (IN Christ Jesus = Eph. 2:6 = we "with Him"); so Christ can fill every man (world) and angel being rejoined in Judgment by our church “IN” Christ Jesus AND the Lamb (1Cor. 6:2+3). That diagram of Figure 3 looks something like this:
The worldly incarnation of men appears in blue in the bottom of the diagram, while their angelic half stands in the adjacent ‘Heavens’ realm that mirrors our own. Our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) was Raptured (1Thes. 4:17) to put on immortality (1Cor. 15:53) to start the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, as we represent all the kings horses and all the kings men putting all these Humpty Dumpty’s back together again. Those believing Paul’s Gospel are already “IN” Christ Jesus and “IN” His incarnation as the “Lamb of God,” as the members of “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24). Those coming to God through the “gospel of the kingdom” are inheriting the same destiny down the road, but they come to God “by works” (James 2:20-24). Note very carefully that those “IN” Christ Jesus were chosen “IN Him BEFORE the foundation of the world.” Eph. 1:4. That means my name has no reason to appear in the Lamb’s book of life, because I was already seen by God “IN” Him “before” the foundations of the world.
That is bullony. You can keep saying Christ is NOT the Lamb of God all you like. Go ahead and ‘deny, deny, deny’ Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29, 36) who takes away the sin of the world (Fig. 3 above). Heh . . . Your mental image of Christ is that of a he-goat.
[Continued]
Annie >> Perhaps you are; however at this time, the Lamb is not manifested and is not been yet presented upon the altar. The true identity of the lamb is one who was slain before the foundations of the world.
Lord – Have – Mercy. I can hardly believe the things you allow to slip out of your mouth. Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” who takes away the sin of the world.
“The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29
Your rendition of Revelation 13:8 needs work:
“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written FROM the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” Revelation 13:8.
Figure 1 shows the three witnesses of “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8), while Figure 2 shows the three witnesses of “The Logos” (Matt. 28:19). Figure 3 shows the three witnesses of this Creation (Adam) being the heavens (Invisible Universe = Adam), heaven (Adam’s Soul) and the earth (Visible Universe = Eve). The “Lamb Incarnate” (Figure 3) is the incarnation of Christ Jesus (entire Fig. 2 Realm) within “Heaven” of this universe. THEN (2000 years ago), the Lamb of God (in Heaven FROM the foundation of the world) incarnated onto “Our Earth” (Fig. 3) as “Jesus Christ” the “Lamb of God” AND the “Son of God.” Christ walked around on this earth as the Father (John 14:10+11), Son (Christ Himself) and Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1) “IN” a single walking and talking Living Tabernacle of God on this earth.
Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the entire Word Realm (Figure 2) on this earth, while John the Baptist is the incarnation of This Creation in a single living ‘man’ sent “from God” (John 1:6). God raised Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom. 10:9) and raised Him “FAR above ALL THE HEAVENS [of Fig. 3], so that He might fill all things.” Eph. 4:10. The believer is “baptized into Christ” (Gal. 3:27), which is “Christ Jesus” of Figure 2, which allows us to actively participate as “Members Of His Body” (Eph. 5:30) “IN” The Lamb of God in the center of the throne in Figure 3.
Those with names written in the Lamb’s book of life have a greater half in the heavens of This Creation AND a lesser half in the earth seeking a future joining together with Christ at the “Marriage Supper Of The Lamb” (Rev. 19:5-10). Peter, John and James are examples of souls who “are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.” Revelation 14:4. Look over to Figure 3 and note the “Body of Moses” on the “Sea of Glass” (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) standing “before the throne” (Rev. 7:14). Everyone standing upon that sea of glass has his name written in the Lamb’s book of life along with everyone destined to join them from this Visible Universe (water witness of Figure 3). I cannot possibly follow the Lamb anywhere, because I am already seated “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6 = Figure 2) with membership “IN” His “incarnation” as the “Lamb of God” (Fig. 3) AND with my life ‘hidden with Christ “IN” God’ (Col. 3:1-3 = Fig. 1). Maybe this diagram will lend assistance:
Note this diagram is very similar to the one above, except we identify the “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2 = Fig. 2) as being “IN” Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) were believers have been baptized. The Logos of Figure 2 was divided into the Father (golden above) and Holy Spirit (blue below), so that joining into a “three are into the one” (1Jn 5:8) relationships They became “God’s Son” Christ Jesus. Moving into Figure 3 we need to focus upon the “Kingdom Bride (Jn 3:29) Member” who obeyed the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, etc.) with his head looking up into the ‘Heavens’ of This Universe contained by Figure 3. That bride member has an ‘angel’ counterpart in the “Heavens” representing the same “bride” member's greater half.
The “Christ’s Body Member” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) has feet “IN” the Lamb with his heart (soul) “IN” Christ Jesus (Fig. 2) and his head (spirit) poking back into God’s Infinite Realm (Fig. 1), because he has made the 90 degree (sign of the cross) transition to look up and see his destiny in Figure 1. Here is the cool part: God raised Jesus Christ from the dead in Figure 3 on Our Earth, to raise Him up and seat Him in the very center of Figure 2 (IN Christ Jesus = Eph. 2:6 = we "with Him"); so Christ can fill every man (world) and angel being rejoined in Judgment by our church “IN” Christ Jesus AND the Lamb (1Cor. 6:2+3). That diagram of Figure 3 looks something like this:
The worldly incarnation of men appears in blue in the bottom of the diagram, while their angelic half stands in the adjacent ‘Heavens’ realm that mirrors our own. Our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) was Raptured (1Thes. 4:17) to put on immortality (1Cor. 15:53) to start the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, as we represent all the kings horses and all the kings men putting all these Humpty Dumpty’s back together again. Those believing Paul’s Gospel are already “IN” Christ Jesus and “IN” His incarnation as the “Lamb of God,” as the members of “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24). Those coming to God through the “gospel of the kingdom” are inheriting the same destiny down the road, but they come to God “by works” (James 2:20-24). Note very carefully that those “IN” Christ Jesus were chosen “IN Him BEFORE the foundation of the world.” Eph. 1:4. That means my name has no reason to appear in the Lamb’s book of life, because I was already seen by God “IN” Him “before” the foundations of the world.
Annie >> Therefore the sacrifice upon the cross was not a lamb. The cross achieved atonement for sins and therefore that was a he-goat and not a lamb.
That is bullony. You can keep saying Christ is NOT the Lamb of God all you like. Go ahead and ‘deny, deny, deny’ Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29, 36) who takes away the sin of the world (Fig. 3 above). Heh . . . Your mental image of Christ is that of a he-goat.
[Continued]
Finally we agree on something! You obviously are NOT thinking . . . Your fancy ‘atonement’ term is used for the final time in Daniel 9:24, which
depicts a “covering” (kaphar #3722) of sin only. Our ‘forgiveness’ (Eph. 1:7 = aphesis #859) is “acquittal / pardon” of sins that were
placed on Christ for our benefit, “so we might become the righteousness of God “IN” Him.” 2Cor. 5:21. Christ is “our Passover” who has
indeed “been sacrificed.” 1Cor. 5:7.
No sir. “Before” appears in Eph. 1:4 for believers obedient to the gospel of Eph. 1:13+14. The names in the Lamb’s book of life are there “FROM the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8).
Foolish? Heh . . . My life is hidden ‘with Christ IN God.’ Col. 3:3. How much closer can you get to God than being “IN” God?? God’s Word is ‘the truth,’ but men interpret these same words differently. Does God contradict and confuse? No, but men and even women (Heh) make foolish statements like saying Jesus is NOT the Lamb of God. Those three crooked witnesses are once again pointing straight back at you. We need to focus more on the ‘gospel’ aspects of this topic.
My statement concerns those obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, etc.) like Peter, John and James. This is exactly what James teaches to the “twelve tribes of Israel dispersed abroad” (James 1:1), saying,
James focuses upon Abraham’s work sacrificing Isaac on the altar (Gen. 22:9), while Paul concentrates (Romans 4:4-6) upon Abraham’s lack of work as “Abram” the Gentile (Gen. 15:6).
Let’s try to stay nearer to the ‘two gospels’ topic. TY.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[edit on 10-10-2006 by Terral]
Terral Original >> The Lamb’s book of life is for those seeking entrance into the Lamb.
Annie >> The lamb's book of life has nothing to do with those who seek in this present age - the names written therein were written BEFORE the foundation of this world. They may be removed, but they were recorded long before even Abram left UR.
No sir. “Before” appears in Eph. 1:4 for believers obedient to the gospel of Eph. 1:13+14. The names in the Lamb’s book of life are there “FROM the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8).
Terral Original >> There is no way possible for me to be any closer to God.
Annie >> That is a proud and foolish statement which makes it seems as though you are standing even closer to the throne than our LORD is. If you were that close, your teachings would be orderly and would give forth truth and hope to the reader. At the most you contradict and confuse - when it is possible to follow your course, that is.[snip]
Foolish? Heh . . . My life is hidden ‘with Christ IN God.’ Col. 3:3. How much closer can you get to God than being “IN” God?? God’s Word is ‘the truth,’ but men interpret these same words differently. Does God contradict and confuse? No, but men and even women (Heh) make foolish statements like saying Jesus is NOT the Lamb of God. Those three crooked witnesses are once again pointing straight back at you. We need to focus more on the ‘gospel’ aspects of this topic.
Terral Original >> They will earn by 'works' (James 2:20-24) what God is giving us (body of Christ = Eph. 4:12) for free (Romans 6:23, Eph. 2:8+9).
Annie >> There is no EARNING of anything, Terral. What you have you were given. You didn't merit it nor did you labor for it.
My statement concerns those obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, etc.) like Peter, John and James. This is exactly what James teaches to the “twelve tribes of Israel dispersed abroad” (James 1:1), saying,
“But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by WORKS AND NOT by faith alone.” James 2:20-24.
James focuses upon Abraham’s work sacrificing Isaac on the altar (Gen. 22:9), while Paul concentrates (Romans 4:4-6) upon Abraham’s lack of work as “Abram” the Gentile (Gen. 15:6).
Let’s try to stay nearer to the ‘two gospels’ topic. TY.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[edit on 10-10-2006 by Terral]
Annie:
John the Baptist (spirit), Christ (blood) and the Twelve (water) offered the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35 etc.) to Israel of the flesh ONLY (Matt. 10:5-7, 15:24) to gather (Matt. 12:30) the Prophetic Kingdom (Matt. 16:16-19) “BRIDE” (John 3:29). That Jewish dominant Kingdom “Church” (Matt. 18:17+18) is Church #1, while Paul’s Mystery (Eph. 5:32) “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) “His BODY” Church (Col. 1:24) is Church #2:
--------------------
This is NOT our church for today and nobody has become a Kingdom Disciple under the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for almost 2000 Years. This church will become revived again under Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11).
--------------------
I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:17-18).
1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12).
2. Lord betrothing the ‘bride’ by the OT prophets. Hosea 2:19-20, John 3:29.
3. Church based in Jerusalem. Acts 8:1, Acts 11:22, Acts 15:4.
4. Destined to become a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6) ‘holy nation,’ and ‘chosen race.’ 1Peter 2:9.
5. Kingdom on earth “AS IT IS” in heaven. Matthew 6:10.
6. Continue under Mosaic Law, until heaven and earth passes away. Matthew 5:17-19, James 2:10.
7. Kingdom Church justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom church started with John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Matthew 3:1-6, Acts 1:5, Acts 19:1-3.
9. Disciples received three baptisms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Matthew 28:19). Acts 8:12-17, Acts 19:1-6.
10. Members of the bride DO NOT have eternal security, but must ‘endure to the end.’ Matthew 24:13.
11. Kingdom disciples must believe AND be baptized. Mark 16:15-16.
12. This Kingdom church addressed by Peter, John and James (“twelve tribes dispersed abroad” = James 1:1).
------------------
This is our Mystery Church of today described only in the Pauline Epistles. We shall be caught up to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) comes (2 Thessalonians 2:2).
------------------
II. Grace Body Mystery Church. Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24.
1. Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1Corinthians 1:18) gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
2. Our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) not seen by the OT Prophets. Ephesians 3:4-6, Ephesians 3:9.
3. Grace Churches are all around the known world. Romans 1:8.
4. Destined to judge the world and the angels. 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.
5. Our citizenship is in heaven. Philippians 3:20.
6. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
7. Our church is justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. Grace Church started with Paul on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:15.
9. Brethren receive only ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14, 4:30) Himself. 1 Corinthians 12:13.
10. Members of the body have eternal security “IN” Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:1-4.
11. The brethren are saved by simply believing the gospel without adding works. Romans 1:16-17, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Eph. 2:8-9.
12. This Mystery church addressed by the Apostle Paul ONLY in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 14:37-38.
---------------------
The famous meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15 / Gal. 2) is between Peter’s Kingdom ‘bride’ and Paul’s Mystery ‘body’ sitting on opposite sides of the table, as Paul submits “the gospel I preach among the Gentiles” (Gal. 2:2) to those under Peter’s “apostleship to the Circumcised” (Gal. 2:8). Paul’s Gospel #2 is for our Mystery Church #2 and Christ’s “blood” (1John 5:6) ministry AND Peter’s Gospel #1 is for the Kingdom Church #1 under Christ’s ‘water’ (1John 5:6) ministry. You are mixing everything into “One Pot” to take out what tastes good to QueenAnnie which defiles BOTH!
These twin outlines shall be the topic of a "Church" Thread, when a few of the current threads drop from Page 1. There is nothing worse for our Admins and Mods than when a new guy comes in and starts too many threads. Therefore, like the Kingdom Dispensation "cut off" (Rev. 20:4) under Peter to restart under Elijah (Matt. 17:10-11), we must hold this topic on the back burner until the time is right.
In Christ Jesus and Church #2 via Gospel #2,
Terral
Terral Original >> BTW, I would like to start a thread on the two different churches, but I have too many in this room already.
Annie >> Two different 'churches?' Two Assemblies? TWO? Where the heck did you get such an idea?
John the Baptist (spirit), Christ (blood) and the Twelve (water) offered the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35 etc.) to Israel of the flesh ONLY (Matt. 10:5-7, 15:24) to gather (Matt. 12:30) the Prophetic Kingdom (Matt. 16:16-19) “BRIDE” (John 3:29). That Jewish dominant Kingdom “Church” (Matt. 18:17+18) is Church #1, while Paul’s Mystery (Eph. 5:32) “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) “His BODY” Church (Col. 1:24) is Church #2:
--------------------
This is NOT our church for today and nobody has become a Kingdom Disciple under the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for almost 2000 Years. This church will become revived again under Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11).
--------------------
I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:17-18).
1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12).
2. Lord betrothing the ‘bride’ by the OT prophets. Hosea 2:19-20, John 3:29.
3. Church based in Jerusalem. Acts 8:1, Acts 11:22, Acts 15:4.
4. Destined to become a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6) ‘holy nation,’ and ‘chosen race.’ 1Peter 2:9.
5. Kingdom on earth “AS IT IS” in heaven. Matthew 6:10.
6. Continue under Mosaic Law, until heaven and earth passes away. Matthew 5:17-19, James 2:10.
7. Kingdom Church justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom church started with John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Matthew 3:1-6, Acts 1:5, Acts 19:1-3.
9. Disciples received three baptisms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Matthew 28:19). Acts 8:12-17, Acts 19:1-6.
10. Members of the bride DO NOT have eternal security, but must ‘endure to the end.’ Matthew 24:13.
11. Kingdom disciples must believe AND be baptized. Mark 16:15-16.
12. This Kingdom church addressed by Peter, John and James (“twelve tribes dispersed abroad” = James 1:1).
------------------
This is our Mystery Church of today described only in the Pauline Epistles. We shall be caught up to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) comes (2 Thessalonians 2:2).
------------------
II. Grace Body Mystery Church. Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24.
1. Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1Corinthians 1:18) gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
2. Our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) not seen by the OT Prophets. Ephesians 3:4-6, Ephesians 3:9.
3. Grace Churches are all around the known world. Romans 1:8.
4. Destined to judge the world and the angels. 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.
5. Our citizenship is in heaven. Philippians 3:20.
6. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
7. Our church is justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. Grace Church started with Paul on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:15.
9. Brethren receive only ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14, 4:30) Himself. 1 Corinthians 12:13.
10. Members of the body have eternal security “IN” Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:1-4.
11. The brethren are saved by simply believing the gospel without adding works. Romans 1:16-17, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Eph. 2:8-9.
12. This Mystery church addressed by the Apostle Paul ONLY in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 14:37-38.
---------------------
The famous meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15 / Gal. 2) is between Peter’s Kingdom ‘bride’ and Paul’s Mystery ‘body’ sitting on opposite sides of the table, as Paul submits “the gospel I preach among the Gentiles” (Gal. 2:2) to those under Peter’s “apostleship to the Circumcised” (Gal. 2:8). Paul’s Gospel #2 is for our Mystery Church #2 and Christ’s “blood” (1John 5:6) ministry AND Peter’s Gospel #1 is for the Kingdom Church #1 under Christ’s ‘water’ (1John 5:6) ministry. You are mixing everything into “One Pot” to take out what tastes good to QueenAnnie which defiles BOTH!
These twin outlines shall be the topic of a "Church" Thread, when a few of the current threads drop from Page 1. There is nothing worse for our Admins and Mods than when a new guy comes in and starts too many threads. Therefore, like the Kingdom Dispensation "cut off" (Rev. 20:4) under Peter to restart under Elijah (Matt. 17:10-11), we must hold this topic on the back burner until the time is right.
In Christ Jesus and Church #2 via Gospel #2,
Terral
Thank you. Thank you for investing time and your continuing effort to reveal the Scriptures to me and to those who test the Spirit as I have done so
concerning you. I have had not much sleep because of a stirring within me. I been praying over everything you've been writing and continually I would
seek understanding. I've read through the Scriptures you supplied and have had my nose in and out of the Bible as well.
I want to say to you now that I understand the Truth. I heard the voice of our Lord Jesus inside me as I probably have before in the past but didn't listen until now!
The time is nigh that's for sure! Other than this post-I will not be posting-as I feel I need to remain silent and read the Scriptures and pray and rid myself of some lingering/fleshy things that continue to bind me to this earth.
Now, after all these years, 30+, I understand exactly what the Lord means when He says "Our bodies are Temples" no doubt about it. We are in the Lamb, the blood was shed, the ultimate sacrifice, the Son of God.
The seed was planted Terral, but I never had water until now. Now it's time to grow and Harvest and bear much fruit!! God Bless you Terral! You are a great Shepherd! I will continue to pray for you for what you have given me through Jesus Christ and what you are giving to EVERYONE who listens!!
In Jesus Christ,
HarpS
I want to say to you now that I understand the Truth. I heard the voice of our Lord Jesus inside me as I probably have before in the past but didn't listen until now!
The time is nigh that's for sure! Other than this post-I will not be posting-as I feel I need to remain silent and read the Scriptures and pray and rid myself of some lingering/fleshy things that continue to bind me to this earth.
Now, after all these years, 30+, I understand exactly what the Lord means when He says "Our bodies are Temples" no doubt about it. We are in the Lamb, the blood was shed, the ultimate sacrifice, the Son of God.
The seed was planted Terral, but I never had water until now. Now it's time to grow and Harvest and bear much fruit!! God Bless you Terral! You are a great Shepherd! I will continue to pray for you for what you have given me through Jesus Christ and what you are giving to EVERYONE who listens!!
In Jesus Christ,
HarpS
Hi HarpStrings:
Thank you very much for writing.
You are a man/woman after my own heart. : 0 )
Very good. Experience says you will climb the mountain for a time, then things will level off at a plateau to save your spiritual legs. Then in time a new upward ascent will be followed by yet another plateau, as if our spiritual growth mirrors a sine wave going up and down with hills and valleys. The beginning of the spiritual journey is the most difficult with the highest highs and indeed the lowest lows, then down the road things take on the appearance of a ship with a more even keel.
Stay in the Pauline Epistles every day to strengthen "our inner man" (2Cor. 4:16) inside, as the new creature (2Cor. 5:16-17) you have become. Treat the things of the flesh like a stranger to pass him right by on the street without paying much attention. Also, be like the wise student who consults his ‘countless tutors’ (1Cor. 4:15) to learn from their experiences, so you do not have to skin your own knees up on every little obstacle along the way. This stage of your development is hurried along by keeping your nose fixed between the pages of the Pauline Epistles AND knowing how to fashion your ‘questions,’ so your tutors can get you unstuck and back on the upward ascent. Therefore, be of great courage in drafting and asking your questions, because other brothers and sisters in Christ will benefit from hearing the reply. Remember to keep your eyes fixed on Christ at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1-3) and on the spiritual things from above and NOT on the things of this earth that a visible.
Very good indeed. Those obedient to Gospel #1 “follow the Lamb wherever He goes” (Rev. 14:4), but you and I are already “IN” Him right this moment as we speak. Now you understand why I sign off by saying “IN Christ Jesus.” : 0 )
These are certainly very nice things to say. In reality I am your brother “IN” Christ Jesus working in anticipation of receiving a ‘reward’ (2Cor. 5:10), when we are all raised to put on immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) at the Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). Therefore, rather than being a shepherd of sheep like Christ to those called through the “gospel of the kingdom,” in truth I am numbered among the ‘teachers’ of Ephesians 4:11 working for the maturing of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12+13) of which we are both members. Your thanks to me is to help your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus later down the road for the same fee (Eph. 6:8). : 0 )
God bless you,
In Jesus Christ,
Terral
Thank you very much for writing.
Harp >> Thank you. Thank you for investing time and your continuing effort to reveal the Scriptures to me and to those who test the Spirit as I have done so concerning you. I have had not much sleep because of a stirring within me. I been praying over everything you've been writing and continually I would seek understanding. I've read through the Scriptures you supplied and have had my nose in and out of the Bible as well.
You are a man/woman after my own heart. : 0 )
Harp >> I want to say to you now that I understand the Truth. I heard the voice of our Lord Jesus inside me as I probably have before in the past but didn't listen until now! The time is nigh that's for sure! Other than this post-I will not be posting-as I feel I need to remain silent and read the Scriptures and pray and rid myself of some lingering/fleshy things that continue to bind me to this earth.
Very good. Experience says you will climb the mountain for a time, then things will level off at a plateau to save your spiritual legs. Then in time a new upward ascent will be followed by yet another plateau, as if our spiritual growth mirrors a sine wave going up and down with hills and valleys. The beginning of the spiritual journey is the most difficult with the highest highs and indeed the lowest lows, then down the road things take on the appearance of a ship with a more even keel.
Stay in the Pauline Epistles every day to strengthen "our inner man" (2Cor. 4:16) inside, as the new creature (2Cor. 5:16-17) you have become. Treat the things of the flesh like a stranger to pass him right by on the street without paying much attention. Also, be like the wise student who consults his ‘countless tutors’ (1Cor. 4:15) to learn from their experiences, so you do not have to skin your own knees up on every little obstacle along the way. This stage of your development is hurried along by keeping your nose fixed between the pages of the Pauline Epistles AND knowing how to fashion your ‘questions,’ so your tutors can get you unstuck and back on the upward ascent. Therefore, be of great courage in drafting and asking your questions, because other brothers and sisters in Christ will benefit from hearing the reply. Remember to keep your eyes fixed on Christ at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1-3) and on the spiritual things from above and NOT on the things of this earth that a visible.
Harp >> Now, after all these years, 30+, I understand exactly what the Lord means when He says "Our bodies are Temples" no doubt about it. We are in the Lamb, the blood was shed, the ultimate sacrifice, the Son of God.
Very good indeed. Those obedient to Gospel #1 “follow the Lamb wherever He goes” (Rev. 14:4), but you and I are already “IN” Him right this moment as we speak. Now you understand why I sign off by saying “IN Christ Jesus.” : 0 )
Harp >> The seed was planted Terral, but I never had water until now. Now it's time to grow and Harvest and bear much fruit!! God Bless you Terral! You are a great Shepherd! I will continue to pray for you for what you have given me through Jesus Christ and what you are giving to EVERYONE who listens!!
These are certainly very nice things to say. In reality I am your brother “IN” Christ Jesus working in anticipation of receiving a ‘reward’ (2Cor. 5:10), when we are all raised to put on immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) at the Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). Therefore, rather than being a shepherd of sheep like Christ to those called through the “gospel of the kingdom,” in truth I am numbered among the ‘teachers’ of Ephesians 4:11 working for the maturing of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12+13) of which we are both members. Your thanks to me is to help your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus later down the road for the same fee (Eph. 6:8). : 0 )
God bless you,
In Jesus Christ,
Terral
Originally posted by Terral
I can hardly believe the things you allow to slip out of your mouth.
Check your textbook.
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
~Revelation 5:12
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
~Revelation 13:8
Your rendition of Revelation 13:8 needs work:
No it is your Greek that needs work. OR should I say the translators of the NASB – their parsing is atrocious!
Figure 1 shows the three witnesses of
Terral I REFUSE to set my eyes upon any more of your gospel-art renditions - they are NOT helpful.
That is bullony. You can keep saying Christ is NOT the Lamb of God all you like.
I know that. And the same applies to yourself. Neither one of us can change what IS meant.
However, God meant one or the other – all these things point directly back to the Levitical service in the temple.
The passover lamb was NOT a sin sacrifice.
The two goats on the day of atonement were for nation-wide atonement.
A lamb, back then, could mean goat or sheep – older goats were kids. In the Hebrew, the same word lamb is for both sheep or goat.
Strong’s:
seh, say
Probably from H7582 through the idea of pushing out to graze; a member of a flock, that is, a sheep or goat: - (lesser, small) cattle, ewe, lamb, sheep.
Smith’s:
Lambs are the young of sheep, but originally included also the young of goats.
Go ahead and ‘deny, deny, deny’ Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29, 36) who takes away the sin of the world.
Grow up, Terral – if you would feign to be an evangelist, at least act old enough to have finished high school!
Study Leviticus. Understand the connections between all these things – then you will see that what I say is absolutely correct according to scripture.
Peace and unity in El Elyon!
I wasn't silent for long.
After careful consideration Terral, I did what you instructed and started with reading Acts. Of course I prayed before during and after reading, in fact, I've been in constant prayer since I last posted! And....something isn't right, as I always, I get to Paul and Im stumped. Why is that?? God is NOT the author of confusion, so then why do Pauls intentions confuse me??? In fact who is/was Paul? Why was he Saul first? Acts 13:9.
Acts 9-and Saul breathed out threatenings and slaughters against the disciples of the Lord. Why??
Acts 9:3 as he came near Damascus suddenly there 'shined a light' around him from heaven. What light???
Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth......(where the beast was cast) see Rev 12:9
Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither he did drink nor ate. OK big problem here BIG. Without sight, even to a child is DARKNESS. Hmmmm.
Acts 9:18 ...there fell from his eyes (something like) or (at once) scales...I'll stop right there and refer us back to the Garden where that evil snake was. Yep, snakes have scales!
Acts 9 is VERY revealing. Why was it that Jesus' discipes wanted nothing to do with Saul/Paul? In fact they feared him! Acts 9:26.
Why does Paul claim to be 'the father'? There is but One Father. All others are false/anti-claiming to be He. What are these lights Paul sees where he claims he hears Jesus speak to him???
My biggest problem with apostle Paul over all is : Why are we to abolish the law as the son of perdition, when Jesus came NOT to abolish the law! He is The Sabbath, He is The Law! Removing the Law, removes Jesus Christ! No matter what race, creed or denomination you are! My very being cannot do this. It sounds good and feels good but it is WRONG. Teaching these things and telling these things is blasphemy pure and simple!
Once again people. Who is Paul/Saul? Well he tells us! Refer to Thes 2-all of it! He is the false prophet, the deceiver, the lawless one.
Kindly explain the above Scriptures to me please.
HarpS,
Ambassador of Jesus (Messiah)
Jesus: "DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER; for ONE IS YOUR FATHER, HE who is in heaven"
(Matthew 23:9)
[edit on 11-10-2006 by HarpStrings]
After careful consideration Terral, I did what you instructed and started with reading Acts. Of course I prayed before during and after reading, in fact, I've been in constant prayer since I last posted! And....something isn't right, as I always, I get to Paul and Im stumped. Why is that?? God is NOT the author of confusion, so then why do Pauls intentions confuse me??? In fact who is/was Paul? Why was he Saul first? Acts 13:9.
Acts 9-and Saul breathed out threatenings and slaughters against the disciples of the Lord. Why??
Acts 9:3 as he came near Damascus suddenly there 'shined a light' around him from heaven. What light???
Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth......(where the beast was cast) see Rev 12:9
Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither he did drink nor ate. OK big problem here BIG. Without sight, even to a child is DARKNESS. Hmmmm.
Acts 9:18 ...there fell from his eyes (something like) or (at once) scales...I'll stop right there and refer us back to the Garden where that evil snake was. Yep, snakes have scales!
Acts 9 is VERY revealing. Why was it that Jesus' discipes wanted nothing to do with Saul/Paul? In fact they feared him! Acts 9:26.
Why does Paul claim to be 'the father'? There is but One Father. All others are false/anti-claiming to be He. What are these lights Paul sees where he claims he hears Jesus speak to him???
My biggest problem with apostle Paul over all is : Why are we to abolish the law as the son of perdition, when Jesus came NOT to abolish the law! He is The Sabbath, He is The Law! Removing the Law, removes Jesus Christ! No matter what race, creed or denomination you are! My very being cannot do this. It sounds good and feels good but it is WRONG. Teaching these things and telling these things is blasphemy pure and simple!
Once again people. Who is Paul/Saul? Well he tells us! Refer to Thes 2-all of it! He is the false prophet, the deceiver, the lawless one.
Kindly explain the above Scriptures to me please.
HarpS,
Ambassador of Jesus (Messiah)
Jesus: "DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER; for ONE IS YOUR FATHER, HE who is in heaven"
(Matthew 23:9)
[edit on 11-10-2006 by HarpStrings]
Hi Harp:
My instructions were to read Romans through Philemon three times, while underlining the personal pronouns with a straightedge and pen. Acts is the transitional book you read after reading Paul’s 13 Epistles to Gentiles three times consecutively. We should be looking at questions from Romans and not Acts. : 0 ).
Paul’s name is Saul and Paul from the very beginning, as most everyone in the NT has more than one first name. Saul is his “Jewish” name given at birth, while Paul is the name recognized by ‘Gentiles.’ Note that Scripture says, “But Saul, who was ALSO known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him . . .”. Acts 13:9. The Holy Spirit is using this verse to identify His intentions to separate (Acts 13:2) Paul and Barnabas from the other apostles for the special work given him to the Gentiles (Gal. 2:9); who we see all happy and “rejoicing” in Acts 13:48. You should be accurately identifying the doctrinal elements of ‘grace’ doctrine from the Pauline Epistles first, so you can THEN read Acts (a kingdom book) and make the proper comparisons; as he is constantly “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:25), which appears contradictory at best.
The Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was a Pharisee (Phil. 3:5) trained under “Gamaliel” (Acts 5:34 + 22:3), as a defender of Judaism working under the authority of the chief priests (Acts 26:10-12, etc.). Peter and the Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) were teaching that sins were forgiven through repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 1:4), which is against the most elemental teachings of Mosaic Law. Judaism only recognized works associated with the Levitical Priesthood and Temple Sacrifices for the ‘covering’ of sins. Paul believed this new “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14, etc.) was the enemy of Judaism he was sworn to protect. Therefore, Peter and those of “The Way” (Acts 9:2, 19:9, 24:4, etc.) were leading innocent Jews away from the teachings of Judaism (from Saul's view of things).
What do you mean by asking “what Light?” This is the way our Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus. There is really nothing to add or take away from the verse.
Let’s not make mountains out of molehills. God is teaching us lessons in the types. How long was Christ in the earth? Paul has been “crucified with Christ” (Gal. 2:20) and the three days without sight represent his three days in the belly of the earth “IN” Christ. In fact, Paul is a type of our Jewish/Gentile church, as he is a Hebrew Pharisee AND a Roman Citizen (Acts 22:25+26). Therefore, typically, every member of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) died with Christ to be buried with Him AND to be raised from the dead (Col. 3:1-3) to be seated with Him in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). Paul’s conversion is presented three times (Acts 9, 22, 26) and he was in darkness the first three days.
Heh . . . No. Instead, go forward to his teaching on the mystery aspect of Israel’s ‘blindness’ (Rom. 11:25) and again realize Paul is a Hebrew Pharisee. That Greek term for ‘blindness’ is “porosis” (#4457 = www.blueletterbible.org... ) and it means “covering with a callus.” Paul’s callus’ fell from his eyes to separate him from the mystery of Israel’s blindness. We are to contrast that with “Elymas the magician” (Acts 13:8-11) who had the exact opposite experience and ended up “seeking those who would lead him by the hand.” Acts 13:11.
You will also find that the ATS versions of “Elymas the magician” are also fearful of this new guy for the same reasons. : 0 )
You are making a reference to Paul’s statements in 1Corinthians 4:15, which require an explanation:
[Continued]
Harp >> Back already.... I wasn't silent for long. After careful consideration Terral, I did what you instructed and started with reading Acts.
My instructions were to read Romans through Philemon three times, while underlining the personal pronouns with a straightedge and pen. Acts is the transitional book you read after reading Paul’s 13 Epistles to Gentiles three times consecutively. We should be looking at questions from Romans and not Acts. : 0 ).
Harp >> Of course I prayed before during and after reading, in fact, I've been in constant prayer since I last posted! And....something isn't right, as I always, I get to Paul and Im stumped. Why is that?? God is NOT the author of confusion, so then why do Pauls intentions confuse me??? In fact who is/was Paul? Why was he Saul first? Acts 13:9.
Paul’s name is Saul and Paul from the very beginning, as most everyone in the NT has more than one first name. Saul is his “Jewish” name given at birth, while Paul is the name recognized by ‘Gentiles.’ Note that Scripture says, “But Saul, who was ALSO known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him . . .”. Acts 13:9. The Holy Spirit is using this verse to identify His intentions to separate (Acts 13:2) Paul and Barnabas from the other apostles for the special work given him to the Gentiles (Gal. 2:9); who we see all happy and “rejoicing” in Acts 13:48. You should be accurately identifying the doctrinal elements of ‘grace’ doctrine from the Pauline Epistles first, so you can THEN read Acts (a kingdom book) and make the proper comparisons; as he is constantly “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:25), which appears contradictory at best.
Harp >> Acts 9-and Saul breathed out threatenings and slaughters against the disciples of the Lord. Why??
The Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was a Pharisee (Phil. 3:5) trained under “Gamaliel” (Acts 5:34 + 22:3), as a defender of Judaism working under the authority of the chief priests (Acts 26:10-12, etc.). Peter and the Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) were teaching that sins were forgiven through repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 1:4), which is against the most elemental teachings of Mosaic Law. Judaism only recognized works associated with the Levitical Priesthood and Temple Sacrifices for the ‘covering’ of sins. Paul believed this new “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14, etc.) was the enemy of Judaism he was sworn to protect. Therefore, Peter and those of “The Way” (Acts 9:2, 19:9, 24:4, etc.) were leading innocent Jews away from the teachings of Judaism (from Saul's view of things).
Harp >> Acts 9:3 as he came near Damascus suddenly there 'shined a light' around him from heaven. What light???
What do you mean by asking “what Light?” This is the way our Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus. There is really nothing to add or take away from the verse.
Harp >> Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth......(where the beast was cast) see Rev 12:9 Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither he did drink nor ate. OK big problem here BIG. Without sight, even to a child is DARKNESS. Hmmmm.
Let’s not make mountains out of molehills. God is teaching us lessons in the types. How long was Christ in the earth? Paul has been “crucified with Christ” (Gal. 2:20) and the three days without sight represent his three days in the belly of the earth “IN” Christ. In fact, Paul is a type of our Jewish/Gentile church, as he is a Hebrew Pharisee AND a Roman Citizen (Acts 22:25+26). Therefore, typically, every member of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) died with Christ to be buried with Him AND to be raised from the dead (Col. 3:1-3) to be seated with Him in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). Paul’s conversion is presented three times (Acts 9, 22, 26) and he was in darkness the first three days.
Harp >> Acts 9:18 ...there fell from his eyes (something like) or (at once) scales...I'll stop right there and refer us back to the Garden where that evil snake was. Yep, snakes have scales!
Heh . . . No. Instead, go forward to his teaching on the mystery aspect of Israel’s ‘blindness’ (Rom. 11:25) and again realize Paul is a Hebrew Pharisee. That Greek term for ‘blindness’ is “porosis” (#4457 = www.blueletterbible.org... ) and it means “covering with a callus.” Paul’s callus’ fell from his eyes to separate him from the mystery of Israel’s blindness. We are to contrast that with “Elymas the magician” (Acts 13:8-11) who had the exact opposite experience and ended up “seeking those who would lead him by the hand.” Acts 13:11.
Harp >> Acts 9 is VERY revealing. Why was it that Jesus' disciples wanted nothing to do with Saul/Paul? In fact they feared him! Acts 9:26.
You will also find that the ATS versions of “Elymas the magician” are also fearful of this new guy for the same reasons. : 0 )
Harp >> Why does Paul claim to be 'the father'? There is but One Father. All others are false/anti-claiming to be He. What are these lights Paul sees where he claims he hears Jesus speak to him???
You are making a reference to Paul’s statements in 1Corinthians 4:15, which require an explanation:
“For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for IN Christ Jesus I became YOUR FATHER through THE GOSPEL.” 1Cor. 4:15.
[Continued]
The first thing to realize is that Paul became the ‘protos’ (first) (1Tim. 1:15+16) called to God by His grace (Gal. 1:15-17) to be found “IN”
Christ Jesus right here on the Road to Damascus. Paul writes (my notes),
The common characteristic of all fathers is that they come “First.” The second important fact to realize is that our gospel for today (Gospel #2 from OP) was given to Paul ONLY “through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 1:11+12. This is why Paul writes that his “my gospel” is “according to the revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25). Therefore, Paul is not claiming to be the father of anyone believing the “gospel of the kingdom” (Gospel #1 from OP), as ‘the gospel’ of this verse (1Cor. 4:15) is most certainly Gospel #2. Since all the churches of his Gentile Epistles were baptized into Christ through his “my gospel” and Paul was in Christ before them, that makes Paul ‘their father’ IN Christ Jesus ‘through’ his “my gospel.” Paul is not claiming to be the “Father” of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How does it feel to sit in the chair of Saul Of Tarsus the Pharisee defending the doctrines of Judaism?! That is precisely the way Paul felt about repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), when those Jews teaching LIES should be making tracks to the Temple! Your problem is derived from a failure to recognize that Paul is only doing what God sent him to do through our Lord Jesus Christ’s “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1). I believe we all must realize that the greatest war of all was going on inside the Pharisee that God raised up to give him the “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) for our benefit. Paul had to learn the lesson that Mosaic Law is the ‘tutor’ that leads us TO CHRIST. However, once we are found “IN” Him, then we are NO LONGER under the tutor.
Jesus Christ is addressing Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) in Matthew 5:17-19 and NOT ANYONE already “IN” Christ Jesus. That would be quite impossible, because Christ has not died for anyone in Matthew 5! He is still preaching the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, etc. = Gospel #1) which does not baptize ANYONE into Christ Jesus. Mosaic Law is for Israel of the flesh SEEKING to be united with the Lamb through the covenant and contract of MARRIAGE. Rev. 19:5-10. THAT is why Mosaic Law will certainly remain for everyone coming to God through the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ However, Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness for everyone who believes (Rom. 10:4) Paul’s Gospel #2!!! It is high time the typical ATS member learned to recognize the VAST difference between the two gospels presented in the OP of this thread.
No, Harp. Lordy, Lordy. Every word of every verse from Genesis to Revelation is God-breathed Scripture. 2Tim. 3:16+17. God’s commands to Israel of the flesh were given throughout the OT, while the Messianic Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) is addressed in the Kingdom Epistles of our NT. However, the Pauline Epistles represent God’s personal mail to the members of “Christ’s body” ONLY and those actually becoming part of the “dispensation of God’s grace.” Eph. 3:2. Everything Paul writes TO US cannot be interpreted to apply to Israel of the flesh OR the kingdom bride under Peter. That is why Scripture must be ‘rightly divided’ (2Tim. 2:15) and recognized as written ‘to’ specific members of certain ‘dispensations’ under God. The essence of Paul’s gospel says that Christ died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead (1Cor. 15:3+4); that our redemption is “IN” Christ (Rom. 3:24) and our forgiveness is through His precious blood (Eph. 1:7).
Now, how are you going to sit there and turn that around to be the ‘gospel’ of the devil?? Something is lacking in ‘your’ understanding, but there is nothing lacking in God’s Living Word. To say any of God’s authors are of the devil casts a very long shadow on “all” of God’s Living Word. I do not believe you are ready, willing or even able to place yourself in that kind of position at this stage of your development in Christ Jesus. Are you? : 0 )
In Christ Jesus even now,
Terral
[edit on 11-10-2006 by Terral]
“It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am first (protos). Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the first (protos), Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example (pattern) for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.” 1Timothy 1:15+16.
The common characteristic of all fathers is that they come “First.” The second important fact to realize is that our gospel for today (Gospel #2 from OP) was given to Paul ONLY “through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 1:11+12. This is why Paul writes that his “my gospel” is “according to the revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25). Therefore, Paul is not claiming to be the father of anyone believing the “gospel of the kingdom” (Gospel #1 from OP), as ‘the gospel’ of this verse (1Cor. 4:15) is most certainly Gospel #2. Since all the churches of his Gentile Epistles were baptized into Christ through his “my gospel” and Paul was in Christ before them, that makes Paul ‘their father’ IN Christ Jesus ‘through’ his “my gospel.” Paul is not claiming to be the “Father” of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Harp >> My biggest problem with apostle Paul over all is : Why are we to abolish the law as the son of perdition, when Jesus came NOT to abolish the law! He is The Sabbath, He is The Law! Removing the Law, removes Jesus Christ! No matter what race, creed or denomination you are! My very being cannot do this. It sounds good and feels good but it is WRONG. Teaching these things and telling these things is blasphemy pure and simple!
How does it feel to sit in the chair of Saul Of Tarsus the Pharisee defending the doctrines of Judaism?! That is precisely the way Paul felt about repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), when those Jews teaching LIES should be making tracks to the Temple! Your problem is derived from a failure to recognize that Paul is only doing what God sent him to do through our Lord Jesus Christ’s “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1). I believe we all must realize that the greatest war of all was going on inside the Pharisee that God raised up to give him the “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) for our benefit. Paul had to learn the lesson that Mosaic Law is the ‘tutor’ that leads us TO CHRIST. However, once we are found “IN” Him, then we are NO LONGER under the tutor.
“But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our TUTOR to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But NOW that FAITH HAS COME, we are NO LONGER under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have clothed yourselves with Christ.” Galatians 3:22-27.
Jesus Christ is addressing Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) in Matthew 5:17-19 and NOT ANYONE already “IN” Christ Jesus. That would be quite impossible, because Christ has not died for anyone in Matthew 5! He is still preaching the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, etc. = Gospel #1) which does not baptize ANYONE into Christ Jesus. Mosaic Law is for Israel of the flesh SEEKING to be united with the Lamb through the covenant and contract of MARRIAGE. Rev. 19:5-10. THAT is why Mosaic Law will certainly remain for everyone coming to God through the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ However, Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness for everyone who believes (Rom. 10:4) Paul’s Gospel #2!!! It is high time the typical ATS member learned to recognize the VAST difference between the two gospels presented in the OP of this thread.
Harp >> Once again people. Who is Paul/Saul? Well he tells us! Refer to Thes 2-all of it! He is the false prophet, the deceiver, the lawless one.
No, Harp. Lordy, Lordy. Every word of every verse from Genesis to Revelation is God-breathed Scripture. 2Tim. 3:16+17. God’s commands to Israel of the flesh were given throughout the OT, while the Messianic Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) is addressed in the Kingdom Epistles of our NT. However, the Pauline Epistles represent God’s personal mail to the members of “Christ’s body” ONLY and those actually becoming part of the “dispensation of God’s grace.” Eph. 3:2. Everything Paul writes TO US cannot be interpreted to apply to Israel of the flesh OR the kingdom bride under Peter. That is why Scripture must be ‘rightly divided’ (2Tim. 2:15) and recognized as written ‘to’ specific members of certain ‘dispensations’ under God. The essence of Paul’s gospel says that Christ died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead (1Cor. 15:3+4); that our redemption is “IN” Christ (Rom. 3:24) and our forgiveness is through His precious blood (Eph. 1:7).
Now, how are you going to sit there and turn that around to be the ‘gospel’ of the devil?? Something is lacking in ‘your’ understanding, but there is nothing lacking in God’s Living Word. To say any of God’s authors are of the devil casts a very long shadow on “all” of God’s Living Word. I do not believe you are ready, willing or even able to place yourself in that kind of position at this stage of your development in Christ Jesus. Are you? : 0 )
In Christ Jesus even now,
Terral
[edit on 11-10-2006 by Terral]
Hi Queenie:
The two gospels of the New Testament are clearly presented in the Opening Post for you to “quote >>” and point out any errors using Scripture. Please provide us with an outline of precepts teaching your ‘doctrine of salvation.’ That should prove quite interesting indeed. Are sins forgiven by water (Gospel #1) or by Christ’s shed blood (Gospel #2). Do we receive the Holy Spirit through laying of hands (Gospel #1) or by ‘hearing with faith’ (Gal. 3:2 = Gospel #2). You cannot have it both ways . . . GL in the debate,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Queenie >> If you were that close, your teachings would be orderly and would give forth truth and hope to the reader. At the most you contradict and confuse - when it is possible to follow your course, that is.
The two gospels of the New Testament are clearly presented in the Opening Post for you to “quote >>” and point out any errors using Scripture. Please provide us with an outline of precepts teaching your ‘doctrine of salvation.’ That should prove quite interesting indeed. Are sins forgiven by water (Gospel #1) or by Christ’s shed blood (Gospel #2). Do we receive the Holy Spirit through laying of hands (Gospel #1) or by ‘hearing with faith’ (Gal. 3:2 = Gospel #2). You cannot have it both ways . . . GL in the debate,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Originally posted by Terral
The two gospels of the New Testament are clearly presented in the Opening Post for you to “quote >>” and point out any errors using Scripture.
I must be frank, Terral. I read your posts, even the smallest ones, and I leave with a cloud of witnesses around me head - but they're not line dancing, they are jitter-bugging. Reminds myself a lot of myself. Thanks for that, dear friend, I hope you know my love for you is true and that is why I pick. But also I may be picked at, as well. Teaching - learning - learning - teaching. We are all one of each for the other in the other - and vice versa. (I AM my own sort of confusion, I know - I've worked on my delivery for aeons...)
Please provide us with an outline of precepts teaching your ‘doctrine of salvation.’ That should prove quite interesting indeed. Are sins forgiven by water (Gospel #1) or by Christ’s shed blood (Gospel #2). Do we receive the Holy Spirit through laying of hands (Gospel #1) or by ‘hearing with faith’ (Gal. 3:2 = Gospel #2). You cannot have it both ways . . . GL in the debate,
Arrrrrgggghhh... what are you asking? My head swims just like Mr. Limpet.
How do we receive the Holy Ghost? God gives it. It comes on its own - where and who is nothing man can discern. It has its own plan (which is the best plan and orderly and perfect for all) but I truly believe the most we can do to help ourselves to be recipients is to be ACCEPTING. To be open. To not try to be the surveyor when we can't even see past the pitcher's mound! Just open up.
You really should open up some....yes you are IN but let the ghostlies IN.
God blesses you and I do, too, my brother Terral!
Hi Queenie:
Okie frank! J/K. : 0 ) Jake wrote and maybe we can have a friendly debate on his “Deity of Jesus” Topic. BTW, there is nothing in this “Gospels” Opening Post about any triune mystery sets. This debate focuses upon the doctrinal precepts teaching ‘your’ Gospel of Salvation VERSUS the two gospels I have already presented. If you cannot produce this kind of outline, showing how sins are forgiven, we receive the Holy Spirit, etc., then obviously we have nothing to debate. How could anyone debate my interpretations, if they have none of their own? Anyone interested is encouraged to “quote >>” any errors they see in the Opening Post and to offer opposing views using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15.
Great delivery is useless if you have not formulated any thesis in this “Gospel” area of Scripture. Agree? Of course.
Heh . . . The typical professing Christian has not even seen the two gospels of the New Testament laid out in a listing of doctrinal precepts and has little or no experience actually debating the topic, which requires him to actually explain how those components teach his ‘doctrine of salvation.’ BTW, I am not teaching that ‘two ways’ of salvation exist for anyone today, as Gospel #1 (gospel of the kingdom) has been dormant for almost 2000 years. The only ‘gospel’ with any power to save today is Gospel #2 (Paul’s “word of the cross” = 1Cor. 1:18), which Scripture calls the “gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24). Paul’s reference to “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:25) pertains ONLY to Gospel #1.
That is not true. Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ receives the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands (Acts 8:16+17, 19:6). Members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) obeying the ‘word of the cross’ gospel message receive the Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2), which is another method entirely. There are ‘multiple’ baptisms (Acts 8:12-17, 19:1-6) for the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14), but only ‘one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) for Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 16:25) called the “message of truth” (Eph. 1:13+14). These seeming contradictions appear in the New Testament, because of the presence of the ‘two gospels’ that many here wish to run together in creating a ‘false gospel’ that God sent to NOBODY. This exercise helps Christians separate the first Gospel of the NT (gospel of the kingdom) from our true ‘gospel’ for today (Gospel #2 from OP). That is the true ‘learning and teaching’ aspect that helps us ‘rightly divide’ (2Tim. 2:15) the word of truth more accurately.
Heh . . . Everything is presented properly for the ‘two gospels’ of the New Testament in the Opening Post of this thread. All you have to do is “quote me >>” and highlight the obvious errors (from your perspective) and show everyone just how wrong I am using Scripture. Again, if you truly cannot see over the pitcher’s mound on this topic, then wisdom dictates you remain silent.
I work several sites throughout the day and like to spend time on the ‘topics’ of our deliberations, but do not know what ‘ghostlies’ might be. GL in the debates,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Queenie >> I must be frank, Terral. I read your posts, even the smallest ones, and I leave with a cloud of witnesses around me head - but they're not line dancing, they are jitter-bugging. Reminds myself a lot of myself. Thanks for that, dear friend, I hope you know my love for you is true and that is why I pick.
Okie frank! J/K. : 0 ) Jake wrote and maybe we can have a friendly debate on his “Deity of Jesus” Topic. BTW, there is nothing in this “Gospels” Opening Post about any triune mystery sets. This debate focuses upon the doctrinal precepts teaching ‘your’ Gospel of Salvation VERSUS the two gospels I have already presented. If you cannot produce this kind of outline, showing how sins are forgiven, we receive the Holy Spirit, etc., then obviously we have nothing to debate. How could anyone debate my interpretations, if they have none of their own? Anyone interested is encouraged to “quote >>” any errors they see in the Opening Post and to offer opposing views using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15.
Queenie >> But also I may be picked at, as well. Teaching - learning - learning - teaching. We are all one of each for the other in the other - and vice versa. (I AM my own sort of confusion, I know - I've worked on my delivery for aeons...)
Great delivery is useless if you have not formulated any thesis in this “Gospel” area of Scripture. Agree? Of course.
Terral Original >> Please provide us with an outline of precepts teaching your ‘doctrine of salvation.’ That should prove quite interesting indeed. Are sins forgiven by water (Gospel #1) or by Christ’s shed blood (Gospel #2). Do we receive the Holy Spirit through laying of hands (Gospel #1) or by ‘hearing with faith’ (Gal. 3:2 = Gospel #2). You cannot have it both ways . . . GL in the debate,
Queenie’s Reply >> Arrrrrgggghhh... what are you asking? My head swims just like Mr. Limpet.
Heh . . . The typical professing Christian has not even seen the two gospels of the New Testament laid out in a listing of doctrinal precepts and has little or no experience actually debating the topic, which requires him to actually explain how those components teach his ‘doctrine of salvation.’ BTW, I am not teaching that ‘two ways’ of salvation exist for anyone today, as Gospel #1 (gospel of the kingdom) has been dormant for almost 2000 years. The only ‘gospel’ with any power to save today is Gospel #2 (Paul’s “word of the cross” = 1Cor. 1:18), which Scripture calls the “gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24). Paul’s reference to “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:25) pertains ONLY to Gospel #1.
Queenie >> How do we receive the Holy Ghost? God gives it. It comes on its own - where and who is nothing man can discern.
That is not true. Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ receives the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands (Acts 8:16+17, 19:6). Members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) obeying the ‘word of the cross’ gospel message receive the Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2), which is another method entirely. There are ‘multiple’ baptisms (Acts 8:12-17, 19:1-6) for the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14), but only ‘one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) for Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 16:25) called the “message of truth” (Eph. 1:13+14). These seeming contradictions appear in the New Testament, because of the presence of the ‘two gospels’ that many here wish to run together in creating a ‘false gospel’ that God sent to NOBODY. This exercise helps Christians separate the first Gospel of the NT (gospel of the kingdom) from our true ‘gospel’ for today (Gospel #2 from OP). That is the true ‘learning and teaching’ aspect that helps us ‘rightly divide’ (2Tim. 2:15) the word of truth more accurately.
Queenie >> It has its own plan (which is the best plan and orderly and perfect for all) but I truly believe the most we can do to help ourselves to be recipients is to be ACCEPTING. To be open. To not try to be the surveyor when we can't even see past the pitcher's mound! Just open up.
Heh . . . Everything is presented properly for the ‘two gospels’ of the New Testament in the Opening Post of this thread. All you have to do is “quote me >>” and highlight the obvious errors (from your perspective) and show everyone just how wrong I am using Scripture. Again, if you truly cannot see over the pitcher’s mound on this topic, then wisdom dictates you remain silent.
Queenie >> You really should open up some....yes you are IN but let the ghostlies IN.
I work several sites throughout the day and like to spend time on the ‘topics’ of our deliberations, but do not know what ‘ghostlies’ might be. GL in the debates,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
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