The odd thing about God and Lucifer

How would one explain this:

1. Lucifer rebelled against God, despite knowing the full glory of heaven, and seeing God face to face.

2. Lucifer was able to convince a third of God's own angels that he was a better choice than Yahweh.

3. After his rebellion, Lucifer was not sent directly to hell. He was given reign over God's creation, Earth, and the license to have strong influence over God's most precious creation, mankind. According to Christians, he is still here, greatly influencing world affairs, even 2000 years after Jesus supposedly defeated "death & hell".

Originally posted by Ersatz
How would one explain this:

1. Lucifer rebelled against God, despite knowing the full glory of heaven, and seeing God face to face.

2. Lucifer was able to convince a third of God's own angels that he was a better choice than Yahweh.

3. After his rebellion, Lucifer was not sent directly to hell. He was given reign over God's creation, Earth, and the license to have strong influence over God's most precious creation, mankind. According to Christians, he is still here, greatly influencing world affairs, even 2000 years after Jesus supposedly defeated "death & hell".

For points 1 & 2 we have very limited information. All we know for certain in those matters is that God is Sovereign....over all things.

For point 3 you are incorrect in that Lucifer was given "reign" over Gods creation. In no way is that true.

Satan can do nothing unles God allows it. Satan is on a leash and a very short one at that. I also ponder upon questions such as these but it always comes back to God being Supremely Sovereign over all things, if not He would not be God. We cannot see but a step in front of us as our lives go yet God knows or sees the whole picture. In other words, we only have a snap shot camera but God has a panoramic camera. We see only a shot at a time and He can view the whole thing at once.

When we watch a movie or read a book we do not know the outcome. We watch or follow along through the struggles, the pains and the joys of the characters all the while hoping for a happy and fulfilling ending.

Originally posted by UnrealZA

Originally posted by Ersatz
How would one explain this:

1. Lucifer rebelled against God, despite knowing the full glory of heaven, and seeing God face to face.

2. Lucifer was able to convince a third of God's own angels that he was a better choice than Yahweh.

3. After his rebellion, Lucifer was not sent directly to hell. He was given reign over God's creation, Earth, and the license to have strong influence over God's most precious creation, mankind. According to Christians, he is still here, greatly influencing world affairs, even 2000 years after Jesus supposedly defeated "death & hell".

For points 1 & 2 we have very limited information. All we know for certain in those matters is that God is Sovereign....over all things.

For point 3 you are incorrect in that Lucifer was given "reign" over Gods creation. In no way is that true.

Satan can do nothing unles God allows it. Satan is on a leash and a very short one at that. I also ponder upon questions such as these but it always comes back to God being Supremely Sovereign over all things, if not He would not be God. We cannot see but a step in front of us as our lives go yet God knows or sees the whole picture. In other words, we only have a snap shot camera but God has a panoramic camera. We see only a shot at a time and He can view the whole thing at once.

When we watch a movie or read a book we do not know the outcome. We watch or follow along through the struggles, the pains and the joys of the characters all the while hoping for a happy and fulfilling ending.

What you are saying then is that whatever Satan does, it is because God allows it;

Evil is possible because God (Supremely Sovereign over all things) wants it.

So far the last 2000 years of movie watching has not really been very promising, what makes you so convinced the end is going to be happy and fulfilling?

In a nutshell, Yes. God allows evil and in allowing it He also brings about a greater good from that evil.

Car crashes are horrible. My wife was involved in one. Yet from those crashes car makers are now making cars so much safer. Wrecks that today that would of killed people years ago now walk away from them.

The winner of the TV show about inventions lost his little girl in a car accident. You could tell his sorrow of that loss as he spoke about it. I felt great sorrow for him also yet from that tragedy he developed a car seat for infants and small kids that will greatly reduce their injury and death in car accidents. Who knows how many lives his invention will save in the future. From every evil a greater good comes but we may not see that good until we step back from it and see the bigger picture.

Evil is nothing more than a lack of good just as there is no such thing as darkness but just an absence of light. I could not pour enough darkness into a room to snuff out a small lamp in the corner. Let's look at evil as a hole in a shirt. The hole cannot exsist unless there is a shirt, or fabric. Evil itself is not a substance but rather a corruption of a good substance. It is a privation of good.

We can then look at the horrible death of Christ and say, as many Jews did upon viewing it, "What now? What good can come from this?" The good which came from it is salvation.

I follow a God which is Perfect in all ways and in Him I trust. The end of the movie may not be known but I know the Director and He is Faithful and Just.

I was alway taught that God allowed Satan to influence mankind so as to test the hearts and souls of men.

I'm not the best theology student, I'll admit - but I think it has something to do with the fact that when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, and "opened their eyes", they were cast out of Eden and they and their children subjected to a world of both pain and pleasure, good and evil as a way to atone for thier sin of disobedience against God.

Before humanity can re-enter the Kingdom, it must pass through all the trials and tests set before it by the hand of Satans influence. Jesus was supposed to be the "savior" in that no one single act (or series of) were without forgiveness, for sins (literally translated as "missing the mark") were all part of the natural learning curve of the Great Test of Life.

Just a personal interpretation - take it as you will.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
In a nutshell, Yes. God allows evil and in allowing it He also brings about a greater good from that evil.

Car crashes are horrible. My wife was involved in one. Yet from those crashes car makers are now making cars so much safer. Wrecks that today that would of killed people years ago now walk away from them.

Very sorry to hear about your wife, however God is supposed to be a bit different from a car manufacturer and if He is Omnibenevolent than he should not be able to think or create evil, never mind Satan.

I also agree with UnrealZA/
Hi,

In a nutshell, Yes. God allows evil and in allowing it He also brings about a greater good from that evil.

Again, why does God allow evil?
we can never really know the thoughts of God..
quote///God says in the book of Isaiah, ‘My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways’ (Is.55:8-9) in Septuagint .........

Here is what some early Church Fathers have said of Evil........

St Gregory of Nyssa ,''
God permits the devil to act for a certain time only, yet there will come a time when evil will be ‘finally obliterated by the long cycle
of ages’ and when ‘nothing outside of good will remain,
but the confession of Christ’s lordship will be unanimous even from the demons’.
The belief in the final restoration of the demons and the devil into their initial state was held also by St Isaac of Nineveh, as well as by some other early church writers.

link to quote~

helen

Originally posted by helen670
I also agree with UnrealZA/
Hi,

In a nutshell, Yes. God allows evil and in allowing it He also brings about a greater good from that evil.

Again, why does God allow evil?
we can never really know the thoughts of God..
quote///God says in the book of Isaiah, ‘My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways’ (Is.55:8-9) in Septuagint .........

Here is what some early Church Fathers have said of Evil........

St Gregory of Nyssa ,''
God permits the devil to act for a certain time only, yet there will come a time when evil will be ‘finally obliterated by the long cycle
of ages’ and when ‘nothing outside of good will remain,
but the confession of Christ’s lordship will be unanimous even from the demons’.
The belief in the final restoration of the demons and the devil into their initial state was held also by St Isaac of Nineveh, as well as by some other early church writers.

link to quote~

helen

I will type again what the definition of "free" is

FREE: exempt from external authority, interference, restriction, etc., as a person or one's will, thought, choice, action, etc.; independent; unrestricted.

Christians like to claim that God does not control our decisions; he just knows in advance what “free will” choices we will make. Although this is absurd, it is a frequent argument used to get God off the hook for all the evil in the world. But even this argument fails. God could have chosen only to create beings that would “freely choose” only good. Why not? After the earth passes away, there will be no sin, evil, or suffering in heaven, and yet, Christians will claim that the inhabitants will still have free will ?.

It is amazing how so many Christians will claim, “everything is possible with God” “God created everything” “God can do anything”. And yet, when you point out what a #ty job he’s done, suddenly there are all sorts of restrictions on what God can do. Apparently he can do anything except create a half ass decent world. Apparently he can’t stop one rape, one murder, one lingering illness, much less all of them. Seems like he's either not so smart, or not so powerful, or perhaps he just doesn't give a #.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Satan can do nothing unles God allows it. Satan is on a leash and a very short one at that. I also ponder upon questions such as these but it always comes back to God being Supremely Sovereign over all things, if not He would not be God. We cannot see but a step in front of us as our lives go yet God knows or sees the whole picture. In other words, we only have a snap shot camera but God has a panoramic camera. We see only a shot at a time and He can view the whole thing at once.

When we watch a movie or read a book we do not know the outcome. We watch or follow along through the struggles, the pains and the joys of the characters all the while hoping for a happy and fulfilling ending.

Very well put! I'm giving you the first thumbs up for the month.

Your statements also explain how it is that what God does is what He does, period. There is no second guessing God as in "why does God allow....." statements. If we have a problem with what He does, allows, lets appear to be true, and so on, WE have the problem, not Him.

Originally posted by curiousity
Very well put! I'm giving you the first thumbs up for the month.

Your statements also explain how it is that what God does is what He does, period. There is no second guessing God as in "why does God allow....." statements. If we
have a problem with what He does, allows, lets appear to be true, and so on, WE have the problem, not Him.

We do have a problem and it will continue as long as we believe in some thunder God.

Blind faith is exactly that: blind!

This is what Galileo said when the Church asked him to agree that the Earth was flat:

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use".

ill tell u the odd thing about god and lucifer they dont exist their made up like all the other deities in every other religion how do u know yur religion is right exactly u dont so be quiet im not imaginary beings creation im an evolved ape named homo sapien i mean it how ignorant are u christians

Originally posted by mr cryptoman
ill tell u the odd thing about god and lucifer they dont exist their made up like all the other deities in every other religion how do u know yur religion is right exactly u dont so be quiet im not imaginary beings creation im an evolved ape named homo sapien i mean it how ignorant are u christians

But who's your nephew?

Does your computer lack a capital button?

Does your mom know you are on an adult-sized forum?

Are you just trolling?

edited to add one more suspicious minded sentence.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by curiousity]

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by UnrealZA
In a nutshell, Yes. God allows evil and in allowing it He also brings about a greater good from that evil.

Car crashes are horrible. My wife was involved in one. Yet from those crashes car makers are now making cars so much safer. Wrecks that today that would of killed people years ago now walk away from them.

Very sorry to hear about your wife, however God is supposed to be a bit different from a car manufacturer and if He is Omnibenevolent than he should not be able to think or create evil, never mind Satan.

Hello and thank you for your concern. I apologize for the late reply but my busy schedule does not allow me to reply on a daily basis.

God never created evil for that would contradict His being Holy. God is a non-contradictory Being. He can do nothing against His nature. He could not cease to be, He could not lie nor could He create sin.

God has created calamity, such as earthquakes, hurricanes, famine, etc. but these are not sin. One may conclude that a hurricane with all of its destruction is "evil" yet that is more from emotions, and understandbly so. A hurricane though is not truly evil for evil is not a substance but rather it's a lack of good. A man-made disaster, such as 9/11, comes from the minds of evil men. A Christian blowing up an abortion clinic is carried out by an evil person as well. The planes, the bombs, guns, and cars are not evil in and of themselves but rather those who would use these things to kill or injure others are "evil". They perform evil (sinful) acts.

Satan was not created evil for God is not the Author of sin. We can say that God made sin possible but man made sin actual. God allows evil to be so that a greater good may come from it.

More importantly for the unbeliever to grasp is that while they seek an answer as to why a "loving" God would allow evil or what does the Christian worldview have to say about evil is that their own worldview has no answer either for evil in the world. I could just as easily turn to the atheist and ask them...."Why does your worldview of atheism allow evil??"

To the Buddhist I could rightly ask, "If we are all under karmic law, why is the world getting more and more violent when we should be getting more peaceful...reaching for more enlightenment??"

Originally posted by UnrealZA

"Why does your worldview of atheism allow evil??"

One does not need to be atheist to witness Evil, or are you arguing that Evil does not exists?
Whether it is emotional or physical it does exist, it must come from somewhere...
According to your doctrine God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent

You say it's the Devil's fault but surely Satan cannot be self generated or God would not be omnimax for allowing such a force to be or are you saying that God is not Omnimax?

You keep changing the goal posts.

Everything we do is known by God in advance, so if we were to do something other than what we do we would make his knowledge imperfect.

Whats odd is how you mortals claim to know what god or lucifer is or does.

Christians like to claim that God does not control our decisions; he just knows in advance what “free will” choices we will make. Although this is absurd, it is a frequent argument used to get God off the hook for all the evil in the world. But even this argument fails. God could have chosen only to create beings that would “freely choose” only good. Why not? After the earth passes away, there will be no sin, evil, or suffering in heaven, and yet, Christians will claim that the inhabitants will still have free will ?.

It is amazing how so many Christians will claim, “everything is possible with God” “God created everything” “God can do anything”. And yet, when you point out what a #ty job he’s done, suddenly there are all sorts of restrictions on what God can do. Apparently he can do anything except create a half ass decent world. Apparently he can’t stop one rape, one murder, one lingering illness, much less all of them. Seems like he's either not so smart, or not so powerful, or perhaps he just doesn't give a #.

Nicely put, A voice of reason in a world gone mad. Goo for you. way above top secret vote goes to you

[edit on 14-9-2006 by nephyx]

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by UnrealZA

"Why does your worldview of atheism allow evil??"

One does not need to be atheist to witness Evil, or are you arguing that Evil does not exists?
Whether it is emotional or physical it does exist, it must come from somewhere...
According to your doctrine God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent

You say it's the Devil's fault but surely Satan cannot be self generated or God would not be omnimax for allowing such a force to be or are you saying that God is not Omnimax?

You keep changing the goal posts.

Everything we do is known by God in advance, so if we were to do something other than what we do we would make his knowledge imperfect.

God not only knows what we shall do but also controls our actions.

I am asking you, what answer does atheism have for evil?