Chinese armoured Vehicles - Third Generation

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by blowfishdl
Actually we have a trade deficit because production is down.

ROFL

That is a laugh

GM, Ford apprantly use "real materials, and actually pay our employees a fair wage" and so do the Japanese but you dont see them file for bankruptcy. The Americans spend the most on RnD and yet all they can come up with in car design is to add more paint or make the wheels a little larger, the grill a little wider and the seats a little wider..

How dare you defend that type of government?

Dont put words in my mouth.

A discussion of manufracturing quality does not equate to the discussion on human rights or government.....

Is there even any "off-road terrain" in china where these vehicles could be put to the test?

There sums up your whole argument. You have never been to China, never seem any pictures of China and your talking out of your ass. China is over populated that is true but so is Japan. The majority of the population lives on the East coast while the interior is not as heavily populated as you seem to assume. If you look at Chinas interior where these vechicles will be deployed they are a nessecity in an areas whose roads become the enviroment during different seasons

but the ones who do have armor plates would absolutely crap on those little tonka toys.

Sure they do....

GM, ford and Chevy lost a lot of money in the current mess. Now to claim Americans have only put bigger wheels on things is moronic.

China's quality control is horrendous. look at the stuff in milk and lead paint in toys.

China does a good job of stealing and copying western/soviet designs.

Originally posted by hadjimagnet
GM, ford and Chevy lost a lot of money in the current mess. Now to claim Americans have only put bigger wheels on things is moronic.

Making excuses like that is what caused this mess in the first place. "Oh, they are to large to fail"

China's quality control is horrendous. look at the stuff in milk and lead paint in toys.

Growing pains. China is a developing country who is only now coming to terms with mass production for domestic and international markets. With these events Chinese quality can only get better

China does a good job of stealing and copying western/soviet designs.

We learn from the best.

You don't understand America because you live in a world controlled by your government. Your news is nothing but propaganda, and therefor you believe China is #1 on the planet - we can't really blame you it's not your fault.

It sounds like you think I'm making this up - but production IS DOWN IN AMERICA! Mainly because we are a country that enjoys to import its goods much more than export. We like to take in foreign, rare, exotic goods because it is in the American nature to obtain the best of the best. We have had so much money in the past that this way of life has been fine for many many years. It is just starting to catch up with us because of other economical reasons.

GM, Ford, Dodge, Lincoln, Cadillac, they are all WAY better than any vehicle produced by China. I normally would say 90% of vehicles made by American production are CRAP but compared to Chinese cars they are a lap of luxury. Especially Cadillac - but your sheltered society isn't allowed to have Cadillacs. Instead your government imports Buick's like they're collectables. In fact, it is said that a black Buick is a sign of wealth in China...

This is a sign of wealth in America
(By the way that is a Hummer H3 not the H1 which we use in Iraq)

How dare you really try to compare our economy to the Japanese? Apparently you do not understand that 99% of the technology in the world was developed in Japan. Including the technology used in your crappy little boats, be it old or not.

And did you really just try to make it sound like China isn't overpopulated? If the wages for workers wasn't sad enough, try researching Chinese population control measures.

While I didn't put words in your mouth your posting Chinese military vehicles as if they are something to brag about. Let me show you something to brag about my friend...

www.geocities.com...

When the day comes that your military can make one of these bad boys and fly in it without worrying the plastic siding will come off I will give them props. But for now, your a long ways away.

The only benefit that the Chinese military has is POPULATION.

Originally posted by blowfishdl
Your news is nothing but propaganda, and therefor you believe China is #1 on the planet - we can't really blame you it's not your fault.

If this wasn't coming from an American it would be funny but instead its very sad. So America has access to "free" media you say?. Fox news, CNN are all shinning becons of "un-bias" wholesome media organisations designed to give "truth" to the democratic Americans? LOL.

Please share me that "freedom" rubbish the Americans use to justify their actions and how "superior" they are in the world. Chinese media is as free as American media and I doubt you have ever watched Chinese media or visited a Chinese city to understand that

BTW: who says I'm Chinese

GM, Ford, Dodge, Lincoln, Cadillac, they are all WAY better than any vehicle produced by China.

Funny you should say that, not only are all of the worlds largest car manufractures located in China but also production of large luxury brand cars made in China such as BMW, Audi etc. When you build cars in China you have to do it as a joint venture so we learn the building processes and gain experience from it. You said American cars are way better than cars produced in china?. LOL No American car can compete with the germans or Japanese in quality nor design. Cadillac??? pffft. You think I rate Cadillacs as anything but a below average car. Sures its big, but what else?, a good paint job?

BMW to expand production in China
www.iht.com...

Audi marks 20 years in China and builds Q5 plant
www.gasgoo.com...

And did you really just try to make it sound like China isn't overpopulated? If the wages for workers wasn't sad enough, try researching Chinese population control measures.

China is not overpopulated. Compare population density with other urban areas around the world and then get back to me. Population control is used to control the FUTURE not the present. in the 1980's China was projected to be a 1.6billion population country in 2000 and obviously action needed to be taken which is why population control was nessary

While I didn't put words in your mouth your posting Chinese military vehicles as if they are something to brag about.

Who is braggin?. I posted a thread I ALWAYS post as an extension of other threads I made. It was a update to the 2006 thread I made to give a update to progress of the Chinese military. To bad your ego was to jealous.

When the day comes that your military can make one of these bad boys

Big deal. If you spend so much on RnD and only afford to build 20 of them its not a big worry

1. Do you live in China? How much do you get paid an hour? A week?

2. It's easy to attack Fox News but CNN? I would sincerely have to disagree that they are biased. I realize conspiracy theorists will disagree with me but I have seen nothing but fair coverage. As for the Chinese news? It's as informative as watching Al Jazeera.

Let's say CNN is biased. I am allowed to start my own newspaper/news station/ website, and say WHATEVER I want about my government. In fact: SCREW THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT PIECES OF CRAP THEY SUCK AND CAN"T DO A DAMN THING RIGHT! Your turn.

3. Your opinions on American made cars are strong, but let's see some defense for Chinese made cars? Oh wait you have none because they are unsafe and crappy.

[edit on 11/29/08 by blowfishdl]

Originally posted by blowfishdl
1. Do you live in China? How much do you get paid an hour? A week?

Nope. And more than an American

2. It's easy to attack Fox News but CNN? I would sincerely have to disagree that they are biased. I realize conspiracy theorists will disagree with me but I have seen nothing but fair coverage. As for the Chinese news? It's as informative as watching Al Jazeera.

CNN?. You think CNN is fair??. Come on, now youll tell me America entered Iraq on the premise of bringing democracy LOL. CNN does occasionally have other guest to discuss issues but their mass-media news reports are as bad as Fox. Chinese media NEVER reports false news, what it does is give a short and vague report or doesn't mention it at all.

Al Jazeera?. I watch Al Jazeera and its not bias at all. It reports on BOTh sides unlike the Americans. They dont make value judgments like Fox or CNN either but just report what happened according to both sides, what might interest you is the fact that people have different perception of what they see and Al Jazeera might sound like crap to you makes perfect sense to a Arab or Iraqi

Your turn.

SCREW THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT PIECES OF CRAP THEY SUCK AND CAN"T DO A DAMN THING RIGHT!

3. Your opinions on American made cars are strong, but let's see some defense for Chinese made cars? Oh wait you have none because they are unsafe and crappy.

If I were to invest as much money into a Chinese design then we will also get a better car. How can you compare a car which had $1Billion spent on its development with a car which had $10million spent on its development

reply to post by chinawhite

Al Jazeera?. I watch Al Jazeera and its not bias at all. It reports on both sides unlike the Americans. They don’t make value judgments like Fox or CNN either but just report what happened according to both sides, what might interest you is the fact that people have different perception of what they see and Al Jazeera might sound like crap to you makes perfect sense to a Arab or Iraqi

Sadly, about 80% of Americans are delightfully ignorant of most of the world they live in. My experience meeting people from foreign countries tells me the numbers there are about the opposite of ours. 80% of foreigners are well informed about world issues. It’s no wonder America’s foreign policy is discombobulated to say the best. That is, Americans are blithely ignorant of most of what it takes to pursue an intelligent “foreign” policy. We are a whoopty-do country! Americans still think we go to foreign places to HELP those people! Sweet Jesus!

Al Jazeera is the BEST channel NOT available to Americans. Wow, and we boast or claim to have the First Amendment too?

In 2004, Time Warner bought CNN from Ted Turner. Prior to that time, CNN had earned a very good reputation in newsworthiness. CNN is now riding high on that reputation, but careful watching of CNN will reveal it is up to the old Republican ownership tricks. Pro business pro government and slanting the news. And just not reporting the hard stuff that 80% of the public don’t give a durn about. Since the purchase, CNN has become a FOX KNOCK-OFF. Herr Dr. Josef Goebbels would be at home as CEO of Time-Warner.

Time-Warner. Among its subsidiaries are AOL, New Line Cinema, Time Inc., Time Warner Cable, HBO, Turner Broadcasting System, The CW Television Network, TheWB.com, UBU Productions, Warner Bros. Entertainment, Kids' WB, The CW4Kids, Cartoon Network, CNN, DC Comics, and Mohawk Productions. en.wikipedia.org...

If I were to invest as much money into a Chinese design then we will also get a better car. How can you compare a car which had $1 billion spent on its development with a car which had but $10 million spent on its development.

China is getting its feet wet in the car business. Look at the short history of Hyundai and Kia from South Korea. Today’s Hyundai is the equal of Toyota and Honda in all but reputation and dealership quality. I don’t know anyone who owns a Kia.

I hope China will make a move to SAVE the world by investing in hybrid and all electric cars. We need a battery that will power a 3000 pound car for 200 miles at 50 mph. That will be the breakthrough that offers HOPE to the world and would sell more than they could make for years.

[edit on 11/30/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Sadly, about 80% of Americans are delightfully ignorant of most of the world they live in.

Good to hear from you again donwhite.

What you mention is true but I feel like it applies to any mass-media organisation not just American. I believe that "mass-media" is dumbed down for the average person to understand, people dont want to form their own opinions they want people to tell them what to think as thinking is getting to "hard" for people in this "convenience" society. America is the worst offender but sadly they have spread this culture to other countries who are all to happy to accept it. Fox is just making things people want, we might want to believe that people are fooled into watching "The Simple Life" but people enjoy them rather than watching "boring" world events or culture shows. So knowledge has died with "prime-time" TV

Ignorance is Bliss

I hope China will make a move to SAVE the world by investing in hybrid and all electric cars.

With the high petrol prices, even after the recent drop, peoples mentality regarding fuel consumption will still be weary of buying large SUVs or "gas-guzzlers" which can only be good for the enviroment. I remember watching a video or news report where a women took her dog for a walk in the war, the poor dog was tied to the car while she slowly drove down the street. China will play a part but the large established car manufacturers will lead the way

reply to post by chinawhite

With the high petrol prices, even after the recent drop, peoples mentality regarding fuel consumption will still be weary of buying large SUVs or "gas-guzzlers" which can only be good for the environment. I remember watching a video or news report where a women took her dog for a walk in the war, the poor dog was tied to the car while she slowly drove down the street. China will play a part but the large established car manufacturers will lead the way.

Mr Chinawhite, may I be perfectly honest and post a few reflections?

If it is impossible to re-tell America’s short history - 1583-2008 - here (limited to 10,000 key strokes) then it is all the more so impossible to re-tell the history of China - 3000 BCE to the present. 425 years compared to more than 5,000 years. 2,000 years ago, in the first century of the current era - when Rome was shifting from the Republic to the Empire - the population of China was most likely equal to the total population of the entire Mediterranean Basin. About 50 million.

America’s national political history is absolutely unique. Not necessarily the greatest but indisputably unique. No doubt about that. See Note 1. I have shortened the explanation of what “made us unique” - or “great” as we are wont to repeat endlessly - to a single four letter word. That’s also a part of being American, “make it simple, make it short and make it quick!” Well, the superlative word is - - - L A N D.

Keep in mind we here are a product of western Europe. And the Age of the Enlightenment. With a lot of our shared heritage coming from what the Romans called Syria Palestina. Religion. After the conversion of Emperor Constantine around 320 CE, the West moved rather quickly to a unitary or monolithic religion. After the “fall” of Rome - often given as 476 CE - the ancient world's (say Western in this context) political infrastructure rapidly disintegrated and was ultimately replaced by the nascent Roman Catholic Church, by around 800 CE. See Note 2.

Over the next 1,000 years the West passed in slow succession through what we call the Dark Ages, followed by the Middle Ages. Itself subdivided into Early and Late. After barely surviving the 3 episodes of the Black Death in the 14th century - brought west by ships from China? - Europe was ready for Columbus and a new era, the Age of Exploration. Most remarkable and enduring of this millennium was the establishment of what we call Feudalism. Visible signs and cultural influences of which remain to this day. Briefly, it was a TOP down system of allotting land to peasants who in turn owed their lord service. All of the tillable land in Europe - west of the Urals - became locked into feudalism's strict code of privileges and obligations. No unclaimed land was available in Europe for new generations. Enter the New World.

Through a fluke of pure chance, the Spanish and French sent out single men to conquer the inhabitants of the New World, while the English sent out men with families to subdue the land. The Law of Unintended Consequence became operative. By the 18th century, the English had 13 colonies inhabited by quick growing families along the eastern seaboard of the North American continent. For the impact those early settlers had on later American culture see Note 3. It was the wholly unexpected benefit of the happenstance “conquer the people” versus “subdue the land” choice. And so far as the English speaking people went, they soon became in their own eyes the Biblical “shining light upon the hill” or a secular beacon for the dispossessed. But for the dark side of America never far away, see Note 4.

Again by yet another fluke, it turned out that the part of the New World that held the most of what was really valuable, the natural resources including the rich, black, loamy soil, was found in the English colonies. And not in the gold rich Meso-America nor in the fur plentiful Hudson Bay region of Canada. The rich, fertile, black loamy soil was to prove worth many times over the value of all the gold and furs! America had the most of the best soil in the entire world! Compared to the worn-out and depleted soils of Europe, the American colonies could out-produce anyone in Europe.

As Peter Falk's Columbo frequently said: “And one more thing!” add to that the other highly favorable advantages of LATITUDE of the land that was to become the United States. Location, location, location as the realtors say. You have an unequaled mixture of what must have looked much like the fabled Promised Land or certainly a gift of Divine Providence to the 1000s of immigrants from Old Europe. You might say America is a product of an unlikely series of FLUKES. And that is serendipity. See also UCLA's Prof. Jared Diamond's Pulitzer Prize-winning book Guns, Germs, and Steel (1998) that expounds his east-west versus north-south geography theory to explain why Europeans were able to conquer most of the remaining world.

America - like China - has been a rarity in the nations of the earth. We too have been almost totally self-sufficient in natural resources. Only a few rare earths are lacking in the 3 million square miles making up the Lower 48. About the same size as modern China. We are situated on the globe at about the same parallel of latitude which is the most favored. Shanghai is at the same latitude as New Orleans. China however, has a very large part of its country in the south-east much further south than the US. Probably an area equal to Texas and Oklahoma is at the same latitude as South Florida. And all well watered and very fertile!

It also seems America had more petroleum under its soil than does China. The first discovered of the world's 2 super oil fields - the other is in Saudi Arabia - is under East Texas. All of this abundance provided by NATURE has been the source of too many ill-informed American’s excessive chest thumping braggadocio. It surely must be obvious that our self-congratulatory “success” is due more to our ideal placement on the globe than to any peculiar ability we possess. You might say it was "plate tectonics" that made America great!



Note 1. "The Significance of the Frontier in American History" is a seminal essay first published in 1893, by the American historian Frederick Jackson Turner which advanced the Frontier Thesis of American history. It was incorporated into Turner's 1921 book, The Frontier in American History, as Chapter I. The thesis describes the idea the frontier shaped the American being and their characteristic of individualism. Turner reflects on the past to prove his point by noting human fascination with the frontier and how expansion to the American West changed peoples' views on their culture. It is a thesis that has been respected in the historical circle for many years. en.wikipedia.org...


Note 2. 'Palestine' is a Latinized name given to the region of the Judaea Province by the Roman emperor Hadrian following the crushing of the Bar Kochba revolt in 132-135 (before defeat, Jewish rebels thought he was the real Messiah) in an attempt to suppress Jewish national feelings. In the Jewish Bible, the area inhabited by the Philistines was called Philistia. The Philistines were a seafaring people who lived in cities along the coast. Philistia was located where the Gaza Strip is situated in modern Israel. en.wikipedia.org...


Note 3. Here are [drawings] of the pilgrims getting ready to embark upon the ship Arbella in 1630. And like the Israelites lead by Moses, they too had a sea to cross. Granted the Atlantic is larger yet perhaps their faith was not as lacking as it was for the Hebrews as the Egyptians were rushing down upon them.

The way the theologian John Winthrop talks about helping and sustaining and forgiving debts if they can't be paid back, and the use of Justice, Mercy, the Law of Grace and the Law of Nature all contributed to set the stage in the minds of every passenger of their commitment to God. And established the metaphor of a shining light on the hill as in Gideon’s conquest of the land of Israel. asamotherthinketh.blogspot.com...


Note 4. The Know Nothing movement was a nativist American political movement of the 1850s. It was empowered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by Irish Catholic immigrants, who were often regarded as hostile to US values and controlled by the Roman papacy. Mainly active from 1854–56, it worked to limit immigration and naturalization, but its efforts met with little success. The largely middle-class and entirely Protestant membership fragmented over the issue of slavery. Most ended up joining the new (1856) anti-slavery Republican Party by the time of the 1860 presidential election.

The movement originated in New York in 1843 as the American Republican Party. It spread to other states as the Native American Party and became a national party in 1845. In 1855 it renamed itself the American Party. The origin of the "Know Nothing" term was found in the semi-secret organization of the party. When a member was asked about its activities, he or she was supposed to reply, "I know nothing." en.wikipedia.org...
(Actually 9,570 key strokes)

[edit on 12/1/2008 by donwhite]

Good read donwhite,

What is interesting to me is Turner's "Frontier Thesis" and the development of the American identity. His arguments sound more like the return to Pre-1763 times of unimpeded expansion and before the Articles of Confederation. I see those times as similar to the levels of freedom which Turner states created the American identity


donwhite, can I get your take of Manifest Destiny and possible links to globalisation? As in corporationism finding "new" markets.

reply to post by chinawhite

donwhite, can I get your take of Manifest Destiny and possible links to globalisation? As in corporationism finding "new" markets.

Thanks for the kind words, Mr C/W.

Hmm? Manifest Destiny. It implies the IRRESISTIBLE force as it meets the IMMOVABLE object. A convenient and self-serving moral and political justification for expansion into other peoples SPACE. Two easy and quick to say words that covered dozens if not 100s of excursions outside our own boundaries. If religious you might say the words covered a MYRIAD of sins. Somewhat akin to the popular phrase offered by the tv comic Flip Wilson's ‘Geraldine’ persona, "The devil made me do it."

Perhaps it - the spirit of MD - began in earnest in or just after the Seven Years War (known here as the French and Indian War). Many of the stronger Indian tribes - like the later Ottomans - made the worst choice of their lives by joining with the French. Fighting was cruel and vicious, no quarter asked or given, and thereafter most Americans had few if any qualms over murdering the remaining Native Americans if they stood in their way of acquiring more and more land.

We usually date the end of the Indian Wars as December 28, 1890, the Battle of Wounded Knee. Or massacre as it is known to the Indians. Note: Believable estimates put the North American native population at 3 to 7 million in 1492. The nadir of Native Americans in the US came in the 1900 census which counted just under 300,000.

By 1793, the French Revolution had gone awry. Americans who had always felt themselves special, had more proof of their own superiority. I guess the fluke battle of New Orleans in 1815 just reinforced what they already KNEW. As Bob Dylan sang it in the 1960s, “With God on our side!”
www.youtube.com...

That’s my quick take on Manifest Destiny. Republicans still follow that doctrine in the main - re Bush's pre-emption - while Democratic thinking in general more nearly resembles the Europeans. Another Red state Blue state divide.

[edit on 12/1/2008 by donwhite]