Security questions.

I was wondering what kinda security devices do u think might be around area 51?
I have heard every thing from cameras and motion detectors, to microphones, and machines that distinguish the smell of a human in a enviroment.
what are u guys thought and does anyone know were u might be able to find somtheing close to a smelling machine.

DOG= Smelling machine. so it is certainly possible, especially if it is the US gov's top base

Considering what they have to protect and hide there I would say its probably safe to assume at the very least they have cameras for all the spectrums (normal, IR, and Thermal), motion sensors and seismisc sensors. As for things that can 'smell' a human it wouldnt suprise me since we have devices which can detect explosive compounds and biological/chemical weapons in much the same fashion. Of course then you have the wonderful natural protection of the desert to further up the stakes for anybody wanting to enter the base.

Does any one know if there any mines set up around area 51? That would seem like a good idea to me.

never been to area 51 unfortunatly. the thought of land mines at area 51 makes me wanna stay away.

Here's a link to an old thread I started illustrating one way to get into Groom Lake. It tells you what security measures to expect, and how to get round them.

A plan to get in.

Unfortunately, the thread was LOCKED by SimonGray himself, which I think was a totally unjustified move, as there weren't any other threads that delved that deeply into it that I could find, but anyway.







And Helig, I always thought that IR and Thermal were the same things? If not, then Ive gotto hit Wikipedia for an extended session

Well, I done some research on the subject over the years. Here are some of the things we know of:

Security Cameras
Motion sensors
Inferred & Night vision equipment
UH-60 Blackhawks and AH-64 Apachy gunships
IR fenceing (they send IR lasers between posts and an alarm goes off if the beam is inturrupted)

Tim

There are no AH-64 Apache gunships at Groom Lake. The G.H.O.S.T. Squadron currently has three MH-60G PAVE HAWK helicopters for support/rescue/security operations.

There are vehicle sensors on the roads surroundind the facility, as well as a number of cameras. The DET 3 Security Police patrols undoubtedly use night vision equipment.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
There are no AH-64 Apache gunships at Groom Lake. The G.H.O.S.T. Squadron currently has three MH-60G PAVE HAWK helicopters for support/rescue/security operations.

Interesting, considering that I've seen an Apache gunship hovering near Freedom Ridge.

Did they ever have Apaches with GHOST Squadron? If not, why was an Apache patroling Freedom Ridge?

Tim

The Smell detectors sense the amount of ammonia our skin naturally secretes. All animals do this but to varying degrees. It's like each animal has an ammonia fingerprint that lets you know what species the interloper is. So they program it to respond to the one that coresponds to the human ratio of ammonia released. I heard that they don't work that well though.

Siesmographs- will detect things moving but since you can control the amount of force one lands thier foot with the reading could really mean anything is moving wether it be a hard gust of wind slamming into the ground to a jack rabbit wondering around.

IR and Nightvision, coupled with thermal would be good for spotting things at night. You can try hidding your body heat under some sort of insulation, but even the civilian models would spot you pretty fast, once they calibrate what spectrum of temp the differnet colors represent. What I mean by that is that if you were operating a thermal cam they can be really sensative and can tell the difference between even 1 degree, They can make say 97 Degrees green and 98.6 degrees stand out as red. So even being 1 degree off from your environment can make you stick out like a sore thumb. So no use hiding from thermal.

But, 10 bucks says that their first line of security is a simple although well trained spotter or sniper/sentry pair. They could easily just hide in a camoflagued hideaway next to some rocks for days at a time, and they will easily know if anybody comes into their sector, especially since there is no real concealment in which to hide while in approach to the base. Guys with some nice optics will see you and be watching you like a hawk reporting to their lead officer everything you do. if you look like you're up to something then they send out the white SUVs. But if you see an SUV then you can pretty much bet a recon guy has been watching you for hours. If you don't-they are still watching you but are choosing to not respond for whatever reason.

When I was reading the Skunkworks book by Ben Rich, he states that paradise ranch/dreamland (area 51) was chosen because it was everything they needed from Edwards AFB with the dry lake bed and all, but further away from mankind to avoid snooping eyes. He said that and the basic security the desert offers were the Govt. reason for putting the base at groom lake. They figured the desert elements would keep just about everybody away. Exposure to the elements alone would be risking your life, just to see a secret base. Back then I don't think they had so many roads leading to the base. so people would have to be forced to trek through the desert to get a view. Not too appealing.

At one time, Edwards AFB itself was viewed as sufficiently remote to protect its secrets. In "Men, Rockets and Space Rats" (Julian Messner Inc., 1955), Lloyd Mallan describes Edwards as follows:

"Located on a plateau, half a mile high among the San Gabriel, the San Bernardino and the Shadow Mountains, it is the perfect place for top secret flight research. No scientific Peeping Tom can lurk in the surrounding countryside to study the weird mechanical birds of tomorrow as they soar up from the dry lake or dip low for a landing today. Even if he had sufficient patience and stamina to wait in the terrible heat of the desert, he would be spotted soon enough."

Mallan goes on to describe other security measures and obstacles. Sound familiar?

Those words were written even as the search for a more remote site was underway.

I don't think they use seismographs around Groom Lake since they could be set off so easily just by rabbits and other especially the grazing cattle in the area.

I'm also skeptical about instuments that can "sniff" out a human. Yes we have instruments that can smell explosives and they work great in a closed system such as an airport where the scent of an explosive is completely different to that of any other substance in the area, but put such a system in the open desert where there are animals roaming around etc. I dont think it would work as well.

One poster above mentioned teams of snipers and spotters posted around the perimeter. I find this highly unlikely because of the enormous amount of man power it would require for detecting such a rare event. Area 51 has a very large perimeter, even larger since absorbing white sides and freedom ridge, with rugged terrain. For there to be someone with a flawless view of every spot on that perimeter for 24 hours a day would cost alot, in monetery and personel terms. This is an even more valid point when you take into account the fact that no one has ever infiltrated the base, or at least not that we can confirm, except stepping slightly over the line on Groom Lake Road.

I too have never heard of Apaches operating our of groom, did you get a photo Ghost?

I beg to differ. Snipers are cheap and any marine recon guy would be able to do more than an adequate job. These guys have discipline. They are used to sitting in the desert for days at a time patiently watching everything. After an hour or so of laying perfectly still even an amatuer would be able to notice any difference in the environment and spot any person trying to sneak in. Water and food aint a problem concidering these guys don't like to eat too much while in the field anyways, smell gives them away. And what they would need they are already used to carring with them.

They would only need a few pairs of guys too, because most of these guys are used to overwatching areas that can especially in the deserts be over a mile distant. And yes, they can generally shoot someone from that far away.

Also, keep in mind that most US SF snipers usually get a bout of training right down the way at the Chocolate Mnts. in southern california. There they practice advanced recon and sniping skills along with some very long range sniping, and I mean very long range.

So i still think that a group of spotters working with a pair of radios and some SUV's roaming around will still be more effective and cheaper than gizmos. THe SUV's roll over to spots of interest when the spotters see something worth sending them, otherwise they just cruise around checking for disturbances to the equipment and or parameter property. Looking for human tracks near fences things like that. Helps determin if someone is trying to probe your defenses in subtle ways. Human eyes are still the best form of vigilance. And if they are still comissioned in the military structure than cheap if out side contracted not so cheap.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I beg to differ. Snipers are cheap and any marine recon guy would be able to do more than an adequate job. These guys have discipline. They are used to sitting in the desert for days at a time patiently watching everything. After an hour or so of laying perfectly still even an amatuer would be able to notice any difference in the environment and spot any person trying to sneak in. Water and food aint a problem concidering these guys don't like to eat too much while in the field anyways, smell gives them away. And what they would need they are already used to carring with them.

They would only need a few pairs of guys too, because most of these guys are used to overwatching areas that can especially in the deserts be over a mile distant. And yes, they can generally shoot someone from that far away.

Dude, you have been reding way to many books. Nobody, not even the super secret ultimate super soldiers like to be on guard duty. It is dull and boring. The hardest thing is to stay awake. So a sniper team moitoring the perimeter 24/7, in a non hostile environment is not going to happen. Besides perimeter security is not what a sniper team is for.

I dont know what they have and I am not going to guess, but you can bet that they dont have multiple sniper teams puling guard duty.

I never said they had to be snipers, just that there are plenty of trained proffesional observers who live in the area and are probably still on govt. payrole. And that any decent one will do more than an adequate job of watching the parimeter.

Yeah they use super duper sniffers and thermal cameras to patrol the base. gizmos that never fail and can be completly trust to work perfectly. Also they use killer gravity defying robots that are the size of grapefruit and can kill you just by looking at you. The greys also give us super anti personnel tech to keep us pesky humans off our own human land. The guys in white SUVs they arent part of the basic patrol contingent they are the Men In Black.

They have the same security just tighter that every other military base has. sentries are part of it. THey don't have to be super duper ultra elite snipers either, just some dude who is sitting still, in tune with his environment and using a pair of binoculars. Human eyes are still the only tried and true method of security period, and that is what they use.

Maybe they have cameras hidden in the rocks that never get effected by the environment and never go on the fritz and never have anybody comming out to minitor and service on a regular basis. which no conspiracist ever notices when they are watching the bas all day and night. And they never have to worry about dust screwing up the lense, heat damage from the sun or a loss of signal from the cables they have running miles through the dirt to connect the cameras. Oh wait they probably brodcast the security cameras footage back to the command base. not that all the nextel phones, microwave dishes, walki talkies, scanners, communication equipment, and super duper sensors would effect the signal quality in anyway.

Or maybe they have a group of guys go out on shifts plop down and watch to make sure nobody is trying to crawl, walk or drive up, or fly on a make shift glider they formed out of animal skins they killed in the desert while on their trek to infiltrate the base to the inner fences or plots of land closer to the base. cheap, cost effective and reliable. When people run across the SUVs they were called out to watch them more closely and arrest them if they try anything, Most likely the SUVs were tipped off not by super security gizmos but by human eyes, or they stumbbled across you while out on their normal patrols, you know to check for physical disturbances along the parimeter that could indicate people having been snooping around lately.

And yes I know that gaurd duty is boring, and that the hardest part is not falling asleep but not letting your attention wander. Becuase of that when they are serious about their security they use guys, probably still commisioned to the military so they don't have to pay them much who exhibit a little more discipline than gary coleman gaurding a foot locker.

And PS. Didn't learn about this stuff from reading books, dude. I actually have friends in the military and yes they do talk about basic stuff as this. It's not rocket science, it's basic security procedures. And dont assume Area 51 is so secure. If you tried gunning your own SUV and drove at 60 MPH throught the desert you would probably stand a very good chance of getting to joyride around on the tarmac before security caught up to you, but you better believe some dude (sentry), sitting a 1/4 mile to mile out from the tarmac saw you the whole time and alerted the SUVs to your presence.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
They would only need a few pairs of guys too, because most of these guys are used to overwatching areas that can especially in the deserts be over a mile distant. And yes, they can generally shoot someone from that far away.

OK, so a team of two men can see 1 mile in either direction ie. together they can cover 2 miles of the perimeter (at best, I think it will be less in mountainous terrain). By my own measurments of maps, the Area 51 perimeter is about 87 miles long (I admit this could be incorrect, I'd quite like to know what this figure actually is). Do you really think there are going to be almost 100 men on 24 hour guard around the Area 51 perimeter?

I really dont.

Don't know much about area 51, but I do know that the US Army was actually experimenting with people sniffers back in the 1960's and were actually tried out in Vietnam for hunting enemy in dense jungle, but I think that it was a bit of a flop, so it could be possible with the development of technology since then!

BASSPLYR
Try doing a 16h OPC shift and then come tell that covert surveilance is a smart way to protect a non hostile perimeter I've never operated in desert, but i assume +40C is about as bad as -25C... and i've got too much experience about that.

Most likely defence is an inner layer of cameras and IR-Fence, we have similar systems at our border. Outer layer could be as simple as a patrol route spotting for tracks crossing into the perimeter.
Btw has anyone noticed any "sand corridors" circling the area, something that stores foot prints etc?

Ps. Could the apaches be in the Groom Lake for some exercize?

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I never said they had to be snipers, just that there are plenty of trained proffesional observers who live in the area and are probably still on govt. payrole. And that any decent one will do more than an adequate job of watching the parimeter.

Yes, you did say sniper


And PS. Didn't learn about this stuff from reading books, dude. I actually have friends in the military and yes they do talk about basic stuff as this.


I did not learn about it from books either. I signed up and served.

Look, I wasnt trying to piss you off. I was just letting you know that Force Recon Snipers are not going to pull Gaurd duty at area 51. No snipers are going to pull that kind of gaurd duty. Snipers are used mostly as a force multiplier. As far as the best of the best goes, all the different sniper groups have a mutual respect for each other. Its kinda like a family, I can talk junk about my brothers but you cant.