Confirmation of Israels submarine nuclear capacity

The debate is over;

In the face of Iran's race to obtain nuclear power, Israel signed a contract with Germany last month to buy two Dolphin-class submarines that will, according to foreign reports, provide superior second-strike nuclear capabilities, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

That's just the start, while the capability was there for some time now;

The navy already has three Dolphin-class submarines. They are the most expensive weapon platforms in the IDF's arsenal. Germany donated the first two submarines after the first Gulf War and split the cost of the third with Israel. The three submarines currently in the navy's possession employ a diesel-electric propulsion system, which requires them to resurface frequently to recharge their batteries.

same article - www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/ShowFull

So, bingo was his namo.

Since Israel already had 3 nuclear capable Dolphins since the Gulf War, is it really such a great wonder why Iran is pursuing their own nukes?

While the article states that the latest acquisition is "In the face of Iran's race to obtain nuclear power", considering Israels already existing, yet UNDECLARED and UNREGULATED submarine launched nuclear strike capability, no wonder Iran is so head strong on its own program.

Nobody likes living under the gun.

Another TYPICAL case of nuclear proliferation, which in this case was clearly initiated by Israel.

As I recall the capability of the Israelis is that they have for years and years now had the ability to deliver by aircraft. The olde A4 Skyhawk used by the Israelis was tactical nuclear delivery capable. Same with the F15s and F16s.
Being able to deliver nuclear weapons is not a new feature.

I dont know how many of you are even aware of it but the 155mm Towed Howitzers are nuclear capable.

My point is that the main appeal of the submarine systems is that they can be hidden in a different manner from land or airborne assets.

THe Israelis have for many years ..had nuclear delivery systems. This is just another facet of what they already have.

THanks,
Orangetom

Nuclear proliferation involves one country help another develop nuclear weaponry. And I seriously doubt Israel is helping Iran develop nuclear weaponry.

The proper term would be "arms race."

Point: Submarine-delivered nuclear weapons are a defensive measure. The idea is to put the warheads where they're nearly impossible to find and destroy in a first-strike scenario, ensuring nuclear deterance with second strike capability. Israel's submarines should be viewed purely as defensive.

Now for a quick look at Iran. They're developing their own nuclear weapons, and have said they will openly share their nuclear technology as they develop it. They've got ICBMs and sub-launched cuise missiles for delivery. They say they want to destroy Israel. They supplied the weapons (including high tech cruise missiles and ATGMs) Hezbollah used to start its latest war against Israel, and are continuing to finance and arm them.

So I have to politely ask, based on current events and the weapons being discussed, who do you think is pointing a gun at who when you say, "nobody likes living under the gun?"

And who is causing greater proliferation of weapons, conventional and/or nuclear?

^Irans president said the zionest regieme should be wiped off the map
not israel (got to love the media and how they twist things)

they said they would share nuclear tec to generate power not nuclear weapons

as i recall they are living under the gun of the US and Israel which it is surrounded by US forces and so forth,

also didnt the US want to build iran a nuclear powerplant 3 decades ago

bbc
"We are not a threat to anybody, even the Zionist regime which is a definite enemy of the people of the region," he said.

mod edit:
Quote Reference (review link)
Posting work written by others. **ALL MEMBERS READ** (review link)

[edit on 27-8-2006 by bodrul]

[edit on 27-8-2006 by UK Wizard]

Uhm, sorry but this is not confirmation. It would be confirmed only after Israel govt admits it. This is just some "foreign source" claims they have nukes. Nothing new.
Also there are no "nuclear capable submarines", just nuclear capable misilles.

Originally posted by iskander
Nobody likes living under the gun.

Uhm, living under gun? When has Israel threatened Iran in some way? They even gave them some support against Sadam during first Gulf War. They never waged war against each other and Iran is far far away. Israelies have no problem with Iranians, they never cared about them, clearly it's just Iran who's aggressive.

ONce you cut them loose to do what they are best capable of doing, submarines are very offensive weapons platforms.

Most of the time they just remian hidden and gather information. Intelligence gathering.

I was looking at the specifications and the pictures from the manufacturers site on the Dolphine type boat. This submarine seems to be configured with the rudders and stern planes in the X configuration. This is supposed to be a configuration offering more maneuverability than the straight up and down configuration offered on most designs. However since the whole plane moves in the manufacturing plant pictures..I was wondering how they would deploy a rear listening device like a towed array....and still clear the propellor? Just curious about this.
It also appears that later designs will incorporate the traditional up and down design.

One poster is correct...all modern submarines can be configured to carry nuclear weapons in the form of cruise missles or such.. It is just a matter of mechanically configuring the tubes to launch...the electrical systems to handle and fire and of course the stowage systems to accomodate. It is however a expensive and a considerable modification if you do it on a boat not originally configured for this purpose.
THe American trend was originally to launch them from torpedo tubes and this modification was done on several submarines in the early days.
Today they are launched from vertical tubes in the ballast tanks...leaving the torpedo rooms to be able to carry just torpedos..thefore not limiting the boats ability to protect itself or become a pure fast attack with its torpedo compliment.
THese features along with the accuracy of the delivery/navigation systems on the missles have diminished the need for so many ICBM type submarines. These ICBM types are being modified to carry cruise missles...which are nuclear capable.

Some type of crusie missle capability seems to be common place in submarine design today..even conventional submarines...standard issue so to speak...standard equipment. You are going to see this feature more and more in submarines exported to other countrys..cruise missle technology.
So buckle up before playing the blame game...

Thanks,
Orangetom

Point: Submarine-delivered nuclear weapons are a defensive measure. The idea is to put the warheads where they're nearly impossible to find and destroy in a first-strike scenario, ensuring nuclear deterance with second strike capability. Israel's submarines should be viewed purely as defensive.

Well naturally it is understood that "Israel's submarines should be viewed purely as defensive", yet when one uses his/hers brain it becomes clearly evident that "should" and "is" are two rather different concepts.

Abundant information on "MAD" is readily available.

In case of Israel, other Middle East countries do not posses MAD capability, thus making Israels nukes and nuclear capable subs into offensive weapon platforms.

Please read here -

www.fas.org...

autenticity mirror here -

www.au.af.mil...

And here - news.bbc.co.uk...

Israeli nuclear 'power' exposed.

Israel has enforced Vanunu's silence for 16 years

Mordechai Vanunu, Israel's nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel's nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. Olenka Frenkiel reveals the extent of Israel's nuclear gagging.

Now for a quick look at Iran. They're developing their own nuclear weapons, and have said they will openly share their nuclear technology as they develop it. They've got ICBMs and sub-launched cuise missiles for delivery. They say they want to destroy Israel. They supplied the weapons (including high tech cruise missiles and ATGMs) Hezbollah used to start its latest war against Israel, and are continuing to finance and arm them.

Please read the article provided above. Israel FORCED nuclear arms race in the Middle East.

Nuclear capable submarine capability FORCED Iran to obtain Shkval torpedoes, which naturally can be armed with nuclear warheads.

So I have to politely ask, based on current events and the weapons being discussed, who do you think is pointing a gun at who when you say, "nobody likes living under the gun?"

Israel hold the NUCLEAR GUN. Naturally other Middle Eastern nations will attain nuclear weapons in order to obtain regional balance of power.

And who is causing greater proliferation of weapons, conventional and/or nuclear?

Israel on all counts. It is the LARGES military force in the region, which is completely backed up financially, militarily and politically by US and England, the traditional COLONIAL power's of the region.

Uhm, sorry but this is not confirmation. It would be confirmed only after Israel govt admits it. This is just some "foreign source" claims they have nukes. Nothing new.
Also there are no "nuclear capable submarines", just nuclear capable misilles.

longbow, right here - news.bbc.co.uk...

Two birds with one stone so to speak. Enjoy.

Uhm, living under gun? When has Israel threatened Iran in some way? They even gave them some support against Sadam during first Gulf War. They never waged war against each other and Iran is far far away. Israelies have no problem with Iranians, they never cared about them, clearly it's just Iran who's aggressive.

LOL! You are funny longbow! I not going to reply to that, because there is GOOGLE! Not to mention HISTORY!

Not all of us here in US live in the "United States of Amnesia"

USS Liberty anyone? Let's not go there, the topic of this thread is very clear. Good then, I'm glad we agree.

ONce you cut them loose to do what they are best capable of doing, submarines are very offensive weapons platforms.

I agree Orangetom. A nuclear strike package to which the enemy has no response is the very definition of an offensive weapon platform.

As I mentioned before, no wonder that Iran so actively pursued Shkval torpedoes and its technology. They are producing it locally now, and apparently it was simply a necessary stepping stone to closing the gap of disproportionate balance of power.

Iran seems to be following the same pattern of license manufacturing as an arms trade restriction bypass. ATGMs, GMLSs, SAMs, AShMs, etc.

While Israel not only enjoys complete impunity to any form of arms control including biological warfare, but actually receives funds to support the arms race.

Considering complete absence of intellectual property laws in Israel, its a natural heaven for industrial espionage laundering. The patterns are always the same. Stolen Intelligence is brought to Israel, separated in parts and published by a number of fence companies. Then a joint Israeli/European contract is made, and the Patent has been laundered.

When the nature of technology can not be broken apart, since Israeli law does not honor international law, Israeli companies are free to use what ever tech they see fit with out ANY danger of legal action.

Israeli avionics really are some of the best in the world, and exactly why they are called "Frankionics". Or as French call it "kosher vinaigrette tech". Same with Arrow, well you get the picture.

For example, since we're talking about submarines -

Petty Officer 3rd Class Ariel J. Weinmann, of Salem, Ore., will face six charges _ including three counts of espionage _ that were approved by Adm. John B. Nathman, commander of the U.S. Navy's Fleet Forces Command in Norfolk.

www.washingtonpost.com...

Oh there's more, just ask

edit: added links

[edit on 27-8-2006 by iskander]

Wait a minute!

Hezbollah used to start its latest war against Israel,

Even I missed that one. Nice job, slipped it right in there, but, no go.

So Hezbollah started the war against Israel? Wrong thread!

It was already covered in other posts. I don't have them on hand, so run an ATS search on the following.

Israeli off duty (and out of uniform) reservists who were on Lebanon's drug trafficker watch list, that were apprehended on Lebanese territory by Hezbollah.

Hezbollah is an active militia, and fighting drug trafficking is a big part of their daily operations.

Question, why haven't those "kidnapped" soldiers release was not negotiated by Israel since it was the very Casus belli for the full out war against Lebanon?

Well, could it be because they are being tried for drug smuggling?

Look into that sport, then we can pick it up from there.

edit: exit quote

[edit on 27-8-2006 by iskander]

Should have stayed out of this debate... but too late for regrets.

Sticking to the submarines, I'm willing to back up my belief that these aren't intended for offensive use. So here goes...

Orangetom pointed our correctly that Israel has several different methods for delivering nuclear weapons to a target. The fastest of these methods, and the hardest to stop once launched, are the Jericho ballistic missiles.

Israel paid $1.3 Billion for its submarines, wheras ballistic missiles cost only a few $ million each. In fact, submarine launches missiles are the most expensive delivery system for nuclear warheads. The only advantage to SSKs vs. other delivery methods is that they are very difficult to find and destroy.

But if Israel is planning on firing first as you believe they will, why put so much effort into keeping the weapons hidden, when you plan to expend them so quickly? All Israel needs to do to defeat Iran is fire nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles into Iran's military bases. Without any fear of a MAD counterstrike, the fight would be over in less than 1/2 hour.


But obviously that hasn't happened. Israel has yet to nuke Iran or any other country. In fact they've never triggered a nuclear blast to test or demonstration of their capability. They won't even publicly admit they have the weapons, have never threatened to use them against anyone. If this is how Israel "holds a gun to Iran's head"... they need a few lessons on intimidation.


I don't like nuclear weapons, and firmly believe "the fewer the better." But look back to the cold-war power demonstrations, all the test blasts USA and Russia triggered, and more recently India and Pakistan... that's what it looks like when countries threaten each other with nuclear weapons. And that's not whats happening with Israel.

I don't understand...a news article says that Israel now owns "Dolphin Class Submarines giving them 2nd-strike capability".

First off...second strike is not a capability but a strategy, and with a submarine you have a weapon that can be purely first strike or second strike.

Secondly...the Dolphin Class has no space to launch a Nuclear Missile, at best it can launch a Harpoon...which is an over-the-horizon anti-ship missile.

Anyone want to explain to me how suddenly Israel has boomer boats from...an EFFING DEISEL SUB?!

Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
I don't understand...a news article says that Israel now owns "Dolphin Class Submarines giving them 2nd-strike capability".

First off...second strike is not a capability but a strategy, and with a submarine you have a weapon that can be purely first strike or second strike.

Secondly...the Dolphin Class has no space to launch a Nuclear Missile, at best it can launch a Harpoon...which is an over-the-horizon anti-ship missile.

Anyone want to explain to me how suddenly Israel has boomer boats from...an EFFING DEISEL SUB?!

2nd strike is a strategy, but it's also a capability that some weapons are better suited to than others. Jets can be used for counterattacks but you can't be sure your airfields will still be usable, so they're usually favored for the initial attack. Subs can launch first strike attacks, but because they're so hard they're usually held in reserve for second strike capability.

EXPLAINER: Can My Sub Carry Nukes?

Originally posted by iskander

Uhm, living under gun? When has Israel threatened Iran in some way? They even gave them some support against Sadam during first Gulf War. They never waged war against each other and Iran is far far away. Israelies have no problem with Iranians, they never cared about them, clearly it's just Iran who's aggressive.

LOL! You are funny longbow! I not going to reply to that, because there is GOOGLE! Not to mention HISTORY!

Not all of us here in US live in the "United States of Amnesia"

USS Liberty anyone? Let's not go there, the topic of this thread is very clear. Good then, I'm glad we agree.

What have Iran-Israeli relations to do with USS Liberty?
Because you are obviously stating Iran feels threatened by Israel, I am AGAIN asking - when ,before Iran anounced nuclear program, did Israel threatened Iran in some way? Just tell me how many wars they waged, how many Iranians were killed by Jews?

Israeli off duty (and out of uniform) reservists who were on Lebanon's drug trafficker watch list, that were apprehended on Lebanese territory by Hezbollah.

Hezbollah is an active militia, and fighting drug trafficking is a big part of their daily operations.

Question, why haven't those "kidnapped" soldiers release was not negotiated by Israel since it was the very Casus belli for the full out war against Lebanon?

Well, could it be because they are being tried for drug smuggling?

This is completely laughable, the most funny apology of terrorist action I ever saw.
Firstly Sheeba Farms is NOT lebanesse territory. Only Lebanon claim its theirs UN said it is Syrian.

Secondly Hezbollah always stated they kidnapped the soldiers in order to force Israel to release their prisoners.
Why didnt Israel negotiate? Probably because they dont want to release potentialy dangerous people from their prisons?

The 533mm torpedo tube is the equivalent of the American 21 inch torpedo tube.

THe Navy version of the cruise missle made to be fired from a torpedo tube is 21 inchs.
What kinds of warheads do you suppose can be fitted on them?? Think long and hard on this one. YOu dont need public schooling or a news media "expert " to pre digest this information for you.

However ..as stated...these missles are now days launched from 21 vertical launch missle tubes mounted in the foreward ballast tanks...on American boats. This leaves the torpedo rooms to carry the full compliment of torpedos for other tasks.

THe Brits for example with their new Astute class fast attack submarines will not have vertical launch cruise missle tubes in the foreward ballast tanks. This is a very expensive modification for a submarine. THe Brits are opting to launch cruise missles from thier torpedo tubes instead...just as we did from the early 688 class submaries before the changes were made in this series.

Standard western made cruise missles are made to launch from a 21 inch torpedo tube. You dont really need this oversized tube being mentioned in the Dolphine class boats for cruise missles.

As to nuclear capabilities...of Israel..suggest some of you look up the

"Sampson Complex"...verses the olde Israeli "Masada Complex."

THanks,
Orangetom

What have Iran-Israeli relations to do with USS Liberty?

Oh just that for years now Bush's administration has been drumming up a war against Iran/Syria after attacking Iraq, with ANY provocation, all while the USS Liberty attack was swept under the carpet.

Because you are obviously stating Iran feels threatened by Israel, I am AGAIN asking - when ,before Iran anounced nuclear program, did Israel threatened Iran in some way? Just tell me how many wars they waged, how many Iranians were killed by Jews?

Simple, first go here;

www.cidcm.umd.edu...

Analytic Summary

Arabs have been present in Iran dating back 12 centuries. The main factor that differentiates them from Iran's Persian speaking majority is their racial distinction, and that they speak one of several dialects of Arabic (CULDIFX1, CULDIFX2 = 2). They live in the southern regions of Iran with the majority living in the province of Khuzestan while others live along the coast of the Persian Gulf; Iranian Arabs are also evenly split between urban and rural dwellers (REGIONAL = 1; GROUPCON = 3). Most of the Arabs living in Khuzestan are Shi'i Muslims, and most of those living along the coast of the Persian Gulf are Sunni Muslims (RELIG1 = 4), with slightly more Sunni than Shi’a overall. Their affiliation of being Arab seems less decided by race than by whichever sect of Islam they practice (e.g., the Arab population of Khuzestan sided with Iran during the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s).

Then google "The history of Israeli-Arab conflict".

This is completely laughable, the most funny apology of terrorist action I ever saw.
Firstly Sheeba Farms is NOT lebanesse territory. Only Lebanon claim its theirs UN said it is Syrian.

Apology? That is a loaded statement, and I know exactly where it leads, so no thank you.

Secondly Hezbollah always stated they kidnapped the soldiers in order to force Israel to release their prisoners.
Why didnt Israel negotiate? Probably because they dont want to release potentialy dangerous people from their prisons?

Hezbollah stated that they kidnapped? In their own words, right? Its OK, never mind.

Probably and because is not a fact, so when you establish the facts, feel free to start your own topic, this one is on "Confirmation of Israels submarine nuclear capacity."

I've already posted the following;

So Hezbollah started the war against Israel? Wrong thread!

I'd appreciate if you can appreciate, and stop hijacking this thread.

If you have any thoughts on anything nuclear and Israel, please share

Getting back to submarines, I can only quote commons sense logic of orangetom1999;

Standard western made cruise missles are made to launch from a 21 inch torpedo tube. You dont really need this oversized tube being mentioned in the Dolphine class boats for cruise missles.

As to nuclear capabilities...of Israel..suggest some of you look up the

"Sampson Complex"...verses the olde Israeli "Masada Complex."

Originally posted by iskander

Since Israel already had 3 nuclear capable Dolphins since the Gulf War, is it really such a great wonder why Iran is pursuing their own nukes?

One key note difference, Israel never boasted, nor declared hostile intentions.
Iran, on the other hand, I'll just say it. They're quite scary with all of the dialogue pouring out.

Israel has not spoken of or made public speaches hostile to Iran. THis is not true the other way around.

I am not pro Israeli..nor am I pro Arab. I just watch and listen.

I am not saying that the Israelis are not dealing behind the scenes. I do believe they have been doing this for years and years now. I think it is part of their survival strategy. Information gathering is core to Israeli strategy. THey have always been good at it.

I do know that the nation of Israel is in a bind..merely because the Arabs will out populate them eventually. This is obvious. More and more so as time goes by.

Keep this in mind in view of the "Sampson Complex." IT will come into play soon enough.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Sampson Complex scenario was one of the millions played out by strategists/soft during the course of the Cold War.

The possibility of "nuclear extortion" by regional powers was predicted long time ago. Can't recall where I read it, but there was a chart back from the 60s which listed countries that were to become nuclear powers and when.

Sampson Complex theory only works when not all of the eggs are in one basket. If they are it's MAD. There always something to loose, the futility such theories dictates that it will only be used as leverage.

If Sampson Complex becomes a reality, the only possible result will be a world wide extermination of anybody remotely connected with the source in order not to allow a repeat of such an occurrence, thus negating the very purpose of such theory.

Politics. Some play poker, some play chess. Never sit a chess player at a poker table unless he's the one who fixed the deck. Then invite them for a game of blitz chess, and never, NEVER give them a chance to even THINK about pulling a gun.

Kasparov is giving politics a try. I listened to some of his interviews. He is so, umm...endearing when he attempts to apply logic and spatial processing to politics.

I sure hope that Bobby didn't see or read the interviews. He would probably leave his hut, fly out to Kasparov personally, instead of a hand shake smack him upside the head, get back on the plane and disappear for another couple of decades.

I'm sure Kasparov spent many of hours playing out Sampson Complex scenario while gazing deep into the orchard through a window, and then back to the board.

Hey, it's a respectable way to kill some time, better then TV, but not as good as girls. Young and gullible ones, and that's where poker comes in

THe Sampson Complex is the doctrine of Israel to the extent that if they are overun and are losing the next war..they will use nuclear weapons and take everyone with them..... just as did Sampson breath his last breath and take the Philistines with him when he destroyed the temple in which he was held captive.
THe Dogma is that they will not suffer another Holocaust. Will they carry this out???....I think so.

In case some of you dont know it..during the Yom Kippur War of 1973...in the early days of this war..the Israelis were losing on all fronts and in danger of being overun. THey were actually taking out thier nuclear weapons and getting them ready for the carrying out of the Sampson Complex.

Their re arming by the US and the turning of the tide is what stopped this dogma from being carried out.

ANyway ..that is the Sampson Complex and it has come close to being carried out way back when Richard Nixon was president. Also this was not a cold war strategy. It is an Israeli strategy.

Thanks,
Orangetom

So many countries down already, just a couple more in the mideast to go.



Where next, does anyone know?