the two party system...

i dont know if it belongs here but i am tired of having only TWO political parties. as this country has grown more and more people have varying views of politics and i think that a two party system is now hurting us than helping us?

why do i say this? because it is seems very obvious on this site alone there are many who think that one side is right and other is wrong and dont seem to realize they are basically the same, lying stealing cheats who keep us down and keep themselves at the top. if we put more push behind some of the smaller parties and supported independants based on their opinions ideas and merits, not how many times they got elected before then a lot of the problems people complain about (espeically about how the politicians seem to get richer and we get poorer) would probably greatly lessen.

but who has to gain from keeping it a two party system? those within the two parties of course and those that back them! if they had to compete against people who had fresh new ideas on old problems and presented an alternative to them their jobs would be in jeopardy. as it is now with only two parties they are able to polarize many of the problems that we have to deal with. so far i've notice having a stance on either extreme of an issue doesnt work, but if we can get thre, four five six or more stances then its less polarized and the people have a greater chance of THEIR voices being heard. right now its like people join one of the two parties because its a generic system at the moment. the more parties, the more specific things get.

i'm curious to hear some ideas from people who want to discuss this, not bash me and tell me how i'm a wishy washy middle of the road wimp. these are just my opinions, they are neither right or wrong.

I definitly agree with what youre saying. The only problem is getting this goal realized. If the other parties gained more power and had more input we could have many different solutions to a single problem. Then have the people decide on whats best for us.

But on the other hand, dont you think that if the other parties had more power they can become just as or even more corrupt than the previous two parties?

Just a thought.



[Edited on 31-10-2003 by Tetsuo-51]

Originally posted by Tetsuo-51
I definitly agree with what youre saying. The only problem is getting this goal realized. If the other parties gained more power and had more input we could have many different solutions to a single problem. Then have the people decide on whats best for us.

But on the other hand, dont you think that if the other parties had more power they can become just as or even more corrupt than the previous two parties?

Just a thought.



[Edited on 31-10-2003 by Tetsuo-51]

well corruption is a given in all of this and yes there will be some even in new parties that will get egos and such but with more competition, there will be more demand for honesty, repsonsiblity and accountability.

when they see that we dont want just two choices and we wont hesitate to vote them out politics will change. not overnight or even very much at first but it would change how politics is done.

I think you will find that alot of the people on this site agree with you. People on polar opposites even agree with this sentiment of yours (i.e. TC and myself or TC and Bout time) but I think we all get so wrapped u pin the extremism of our own views that we just plain ignore the fact that both sides want the same thing.. to screw us royally. Ultimately I think most of us realize that, we just argue and fuss cause it's easier I guess.

Originally posted by observer
I think you will find that alot of the people on this site agree with you. People on polar opposites even agree with this sentiment of yours (i.e. TC and myself or TC and Bout time) but I think we all get so wrapped u pin the extremism of our own views that we just plain ignore the fact that both sides want the same thing.. to screw us royally. Ultimately I think most of us realize that, we just argue and fuss cause it's easier I guess.

i think you're absolutely correct and my ideas/opinions on this have not exactly been met with welcoming arms but rather hostile words (from bout time himself, claiming i was "middle of the road" and thought it was an act)

yes arguing and fighting is much easier than working together but those who choose to fight, are they just being lazy? in some ways i think yes they are being lazy. i also think fighting amongst each other is what THEY want us to do. how else do they manage to stay in power? how else do they manage to keep us under THEIR thumb? divide and conquer, thats how.

is the 2 party system legislated?
So that you can only have 2 parties, why can't new parties come along as well?

here in New Zeland we had a 2 party system for most of out time as a country.

It was called "First past the post" where the party that gains 51% wins and becomes the govt. The winners of the seats become Members of paliiament.

This meant that if a party came second in all the seats in the country, - still getting maybe 30% of the country vote, they got NO seats.

About 10 years ago we switched to another political system where people get hte seats as a proportion of the total vote they win reguardless of how many actual seats the win in each area. (MMP) Germany and I think Canada follow this system.

As a result some minor parties grew very fast, the Greens - neoecologists, and some other minor parties. the went into coalitions with the big 2 parties to get power.

Our new system works well people really do have a better representaion based on how many believe one thing now where in the past they never did.

Still sometmes the vioce of the people is still ignored. We have just finisted a ban n Genetically Modification despite over 70% of the people wanting to keep it. So the big parties can still push their agandas through...

Lazy lazy lazy, I think your right.. partially. I also think we have been well trained by society (through religion, school, civics and what not) to view everything as either right or wrong. I think moderation is the clearest path to salvation but with so many of our societal influences pushing and tugging us in so many directions I think we tend to give up the middle path because you don't have to clearly tink things through if you rely on the extremes because it becomes simply a matte rof black and white.

So yeah, lazy... after I read my arguements there it does all boil down to lazy.

its not legislated per se however the two dominant parties in this country have done anything and everything to discredit the smaller parties and make it seem as only THEY can be real parties and people being the sheeple they are believe it and follow their every word.

the biggest problem is to get people to realize (without getting them angry) that they are being duped and the two parties are playing on their ignorance and stupidity (this is where most will get mad) and that helps keep them in control.

there is no limit to the number of parties that can be in the government, you can be afiliated to no party, run and even win but its so much easier with a party as you can get more exposure.

another factor that comes into play is people's resistance to change. many people have unwittingly said before "why do we need a third party?" why dont we need a third party? it's certainly not going to do more harm than is being done presently so why the resistance?

there's a lot that needs to be looked at in this and i dont even have a decent idea on how to get people to break out of this two party mentality.

hang in there Prankmonkey...

pretty soon it'll be one party...


NWO

Originally posted by elevatedone
hang in there Prankmonkey...

pretty soon it'll be one party...


NWO

i know this is a conspiracy board and all but i just dont buy into this NWO stuff. i do believe to some extent that politicians are puppets but they are puppets of big business, not some shadow group. its just my opinion.

i also believe their is some colusion between dems and reps on this but i cant specifically say why i think this, its just something i've observed.

i refuse to let anyone or anything run my country without the say of the people and the politicians have run this country for far too long without our say being heard by them. if they wont listen then it is our right and DUTY to throw them out and form a new government.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey

Originally posted by elevatedone
hang in there Prankmonkey...

pretty soon it'll be one party...


NWO

i know this is a conspiracy board and all but i just dont buy into this NWO stuff. i do believe to some extent that politicians are puppets but they are puppets of big business, not some shadow group. its just my opinion.

i also believe their is some colusion between dems and reps on this but i cant specifically say why i think this, its just something i've observed.

i refuse to let anyone or anything run my country without the say of the people and the politicians have run this country for far too long without our say being heard by them. if they wont listen then it is our right and DUTY to throw them out and form a new government.

well said.....this is by far the best argument i've heard today...you seem to be inspired PM
keep up the good work

what do you think will inspire the majority to throw the politicians out? i myself cant imagine such a force...the common answer would be a rebellion(im not getting into the titor stuff, u dont have to worry about that this time round
i believe it to be a matter of time, if a rebellion was to occur that would pretty much annihilate any peace.
would that...in turn convert the U.S into a neo-beirut?

Originally posted by Cyrus

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey

Originally posted by elevatedone
hang in there Prankmonkey...

pretty soon it'll be one party...


NWO

i know this is a conspiracy board and all but i just dont buy into this NWO stuff. i do believe to some extent that politicians are puppets but they are puppets of big business, not some shadow group. its just my opinion.

i also believe their is some colusion between dems and reps on this but i cant specifically say why i think this, its just something i've observed.

i refuse to let anyone or anything run my country without the say of the people and the politicians have run this country for far too long without our say being heard by them. if they wont listen then it is our right and DUTY to throw them out and form a new government.

well said.....this is by far the best argument i've heard today...you seem to be inspired PM

keep up the good work

what do you think will inspire the majority to throw the politicians out? i myself cant imagine such a force...the common answer would be a rebellion(im not getting into the titor stuff, u dont have to worry about that this time round

i believe it to be a matter of time, if a rebellion was to occur that would pretty much annihilate any peace.
would that...in turn convert the U.S into a neo-beirut?

i'm not "inspired" this is just how i think and feel. i've never trusted the politicians as they have given far more reasons to throw them out than to let them stay.

what would it take to get the majority of people to throw them out? the loss of all freedoms, when more of your pay goes to them instead of you. when criminals have more rights than citizens. things like that. maybe then people will see how dumb it was to buy into this BS they spew at us and vote for them over and over. this country isnt that far off from seeing these things happen.

I also sort of agree with you PM.

However, the more I hear, read and learn about NWO, it doesn't sound that far fetched to me.

I can see those who are NWO trying to take over, will it succeed, I don't know, probably not and becuase of the points that you make about US the way we are now.
( in short )

I have to admit, I sort of like some of the things talked about in the NWO.. especially, that if you were to harm another human being or kill them, you would be judged on the spot and "taken out". I really think we could use some "judge dread" type of law enforcement here in the U.S. as well as around the world.

but I'm only one person with my opinion.

peace !

Originally posted by elevatedone
I also sort of agree with you PM.

However, the more I hear, read and learn about NWO, it doesn't sound that far fetched to me.

I can see those who are NWO trying to take over, will it succeed, I don't know, probably not and becuase of the points that you make about US the way we are now.
( in short )

I have to admit, I sort of like some of the things talked about in the NWO.. especially, that if you were to harm another human being or kill them, you would be judged on the spot and "taken out". I really think we could use some "judge dread" type of law enforcement here in the U.S. as well as around the world.

but I'm only one person with my opinion.

peace !

now you're delving into a "mob rules" kind of scenario that was planned to not happen as with the election of presidents. the government the forefathers planned was one that didnt have mob rule so as to keep the majority from turning it into a tyranny. they did pretty well but lets face it, its failed. there is a tyranny here and it needs to stop.

yup !!! you're right again PM.

I just get really aggravated at the way the law works sometimes here in the USA...
would like to see thiefs, murders, drug dealers, child abusers... etc, dealt with in an extreme manner,

maybe just maybe it would prevent someone else from doing the same... ?

Originally posted by elevatedone
yup !!! you're right again PM.

I just get really aggravated at the way the law works sometimes here in the USA...
would like to see thiefs, murders, drug dealers, child abusers... etc, dealt with in an extreme manner,

maybe just maybe it would prevent someone else from doing the same... ?

i agree but keep things in perspective, there are those (few and far between but still) who are wrongfully convicted. if we meted out severe punishments judge dred style then we turn innocent people into victims of the laws wrath. nay i disagree with you on this point and for the above reason. that alone keeps me from saying kill em as some might be innocent (and some have been proven innocent through DNA and new found evidence)

yes Sir, Nicely put PM !

so we agree to disagree, but agree to an extent

well, the boss just left, so I'm outta here to.

Have a super weekend everyone !

Intersting that the last serious attempt at getting a third legitamate party in the US system, via Ross Perot, only caused the other 'two' parties to team up and belittle, and attack as a single force.

Additionally, Ross Perot was able to obtain a 19% voter count nationwide, and yet was Unable to secure even one Electoral vote !!

And in the same election Bill Clinton won most all Electoral votes, with a mere 33(%)? voter count.

This is why we need at least three parties. I wish for more. It would not 'allow' for two parties to work the system together, and give the impression of a election battle, when in actuality, it is only a battle for personalities in positions, and allowing to block out any other 'viable' candidates or parties.

Originally posted by smirkley
Intersting that the last serious attempt at getting a third legitamate party in the US system, via Ross Perot, only caused the other 'two' parties to team up and belittle, and attack as a single force.

because any other parties that gain a foothold is a threat to them, "campaign donations" (read: special interest pandering) will be smaller and the parties will have less influence (READ: control). its hard to be the "big dog" when you're competing against more than one party. i also firmly believe that if a third party ever got as big as them it would be a major threat to their ideals. showing people there is more than two ways to look at or solve a problem will blow their idea that it has to be one way or the other (republican or democrat) to get things done out of the water and show them for who they really are, vampires. they are sucking the blood out of us and out of the government.

i know they do all they can to squash independant and third party candidates and it should be obvious why, maybe not obvious to the average sheeple out there but most of us should see what they are doing and why they are doing it.

question is, what can we do about it? i'm serious. i'd like to throw some ideas around and see what we can do about promoting more independant and third party candidates. or show the people what the two parties dont want them to see.

well just be glad your not in Canada, since 1919 the liberal party has been in government with the exception of 4 yrs in the 50's and 9 yrs from 1984-1993