Cigarettes and Alcohol..... worse than LSD, ecstacy, and weed?!?!?

Just thought Id add a bit to the report. It comes from talk of reclassifying drugs in terms of harmful effects. As you can see from the graph below, they are going to have a hard time using this chart for legal purposes.

BBC article

Controlled drugs are currently put into alphabetical categories, reflecting the level of penalties offences such as possession and dealing can attract.

Class A, which is the highest category, contains substances such as heroin, coc aine, ecstasy and magic mushrooms.

Class B includes speed and barbiturates. Cannabis and some tranquilisers are graded as class C substances.

This study has been needed for a looooong time. Through experience and common sense I always knew alcohol and tobbacco did more damage than most other illegal drugs (perhaps excluding ecstacy from that - damn that can stuff can leave you feelin pretty nasty for a few days after).

If beer and tobacco were cheap and easy to homebrew/grow, i'd bet they'd be illegal too!

"We can't make money out of this stuff if people have the right to make it themselves...quick lets tax it before anyone notices!!!"

Since i have these around....

Passive smoking not so bad?

Smoking Does Not Cause Lung Cancer (According to WHO/CDC Data)

The Who Study

In defense of smokers

I am not going to bother mentioning alcohol as the claims against it is just patently false.

Stellar

actually Stellar... Alcohol... is a very very dangerous substance... from personal experience, father was abusive alcoholic, I know how dangerous the drug can be... I've seen it turn friends and family into people who either don't care or who are violent..... not to mention the damage it does to your brain..... I work in the Mental Health field... and let me tell you... while we do have those who are fried cause of Acid, Excstacy, mushies, etc.... alcohol is way more prevalant... and way worse... our clients who are former alcoholics and are mentally disabled because of the alcohol.... believe me.... Alcohol is a dangerous substance that really shouldn't be on the market.... its dumbing down our society... plain and simple..... as per other drugs.... thats a different story and I dont want to brakt T&C.....

Originally posted by StellarX
I am not going to bother mentioning alcohol as the claims against it is just patently false.

Alcohol costs society more than any other drug.

Here in the UK practically everyone drinks, and the younger generation are "binge-drinking", in other words drinking to get as drunk as possible, not just to relax a bit. Kids have a lot more disposable cash nowadays and it usually mostly goes on the booze.

I predict this is going to have sever repurcussions on these people's health in a few years. Liver transplants will go through the roof. The NHS will struggle to cope, and we will have to pay more tax to save the lives of these substance abusers. We just don't know how to do things in moderation! And it certainly doesn't help with all the effort spent on the promotion of alcohol on TV, in magazines and on the internet.

It was only about 10 years ago that you could still see cigarrete adverts in magazines/newspapers and on billboards before they were banned, i'm not sure how long its been since they were banned from the telly though. The same rules should now be applied to alcohol - I remember reading that the average person sees something like 10,000 adverts for alcohol before they turn 18!

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
... while some people do get "paranoid" and if you have a preexisting condition it can in some rare cases exacerbate it...

Wouldn't you be paranoid too if you ran the risk of going to jail for something like pot?

As for the CAnnibus/psychosis link, I think it's moot in regards to the legality of it. To cite precident, how many psychotic homeless people do you see with a pint of whiskey in thier hand? If the whiskey is legal, so should the pot be.

I must say that I'm starting to get a bit fed up here in the UK with non-smokers sass. Would you believe that some popinjay came up to me the other day and said that he was offended, yes offended by my smoking near him. Let me point out that I was outside a "Smoke Free" Pub (shudder) and in the rain! Another thing that gets my goat and that's children in pubs, yes, you read correctly children. In my opinion pubs are no places for infants.

Bernard in the TV series Black Books gave the best passive smoking retort:

Customer: You do realise that I'm breathing in your second hand smoke?
Brenard: Don't worry about it. You can buy me a drink later.

Originally posted by jimi
Alcohol costs society more than any other drug.

Getting drunk and acting wrecklessly cost society more than any other drug...

Here in the UK practically everyone drinks, and the younger generation are "binge-drinking", in other words drinking to get as drunk as possible, not just to relax a bit. Kids have a lot more disposable cash nowadays and it usually mostly goes on the booze.

Well if we gave everyone enough cash to buy whatever weaponry they could would that make weapons or it's users the problem? A gun without a 'trigger-puller' ( a beer without a abusive drinker) is no problem at all imo even if i do not agree with all the advertising and general 'pushing'.

I predict this is going to have sever repurcussions on these people's health in a few years. Liver transplants will go through the roof. The NHS will struggle to cope, and we will have to pay more tax to save the lives of these substance abusers.

But it's all because of personal choice and abuse and not because of the inherent nature of the product. Using ANYTHING wrecklessly can be bad for you.

We just don't know how to do things in moderation! And it certainly doesn't help with all the effort spent on the promotion of alcohol on TV, in magazines and on the internet.

Well you seem to understand where the real problem lies so why not concentrate on asking on finding the questions to those answers?

It was only about 10 years ago that you could still see cigarrete adverts in magazines/newspapers and on billboards before they were banned, i'm not sure how long its been since they were banned from the telly though.

And for no good reason at all.

The same rules should now be applied to alcohol - I remember reading that the average person sees something like 10,000 adverts for alcohol before they turn 18!

The problem is that they can blame ciggaret smoking for everyhing under the sun ( instead of industrial and environmental pollution which are the real culprits) and can thus shift governments problems onto the shoulders of industry and the unaware user. They already have a good use for alcohol ( causes instability in the family group ) so they will leave it alone while taxing the hell out of you just to reinforce the idea that it's a 'luxury' and somehow essentially ' evil'.

Stellar

Edited to reflect that some statements are my opinion...

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
actually Stellar... Alcohol... is a very very dangerous substance... from personal experience, father was abusive alcoholic,

Instead of saying that your father was a abusive man who's drinking habit made it far worse for everyone?

I know how dangerous the drug can be...

I have heard stories of multiple car pile-ups because one person swerved to avoid a bunny .... It's a bad example but it proves anything can be dangerous when the wrong type of person gets involved. I would go as far as to say that billions of people have used something with a alcoholic effect and that it's effects on the population in general varies greatly from one country to another. You need a violent culture to make alcohol inherently 'dangerous'.

I've seen it turn friends and family into people who either don't care or who are violent.....

That it can not do; as far as my research indicates anyways.

not to mention the damage it does to your brain.....

Nonsense. Where is the evidence?

I work in the Mental Health field... and let me tell you... while we do have those who are fried cause of Acid, Excstacy, mushies, etc.... alcohol is way more prevalant... and way worse... our clients who are former alcoholics and are mentally disabled because of the alcohol.... believe me....

i can assure you they were mentally disabled long before they actively used alcohol.

Alcohol is a dangerous substance that really shouldn't be on the market....

It's not 'dangerous' in itself but i can agree that i do not understand why it's so freely ( or at all) available. I would however have to say that we can not restrict it's use and only encourage responsible use while educating society not to be so dependent on 'escaping' reality. Freedom is all about being able to make choices, however bad.

its dumbing down our society...

It mostly points out that the society in question is not very smart to start with.

plain and simple..... as per other drugs.... thats a different story and I dont want to brakt T&C.....

I see no reason why alcohol should be freely available while others ( who do relative far less damage to society - mostly because they are not freely available) are outlawed so that the CIA might traffic in it with the massive profit margin it entails.
I would rather do what the Netherlands have done than what is happening in most countries...

Stellar

[edit on 17-8-2006 by StellarX]

Stellar very rarely am I shocked and appalled... however your cavalier response to alcohol leaves one to believe that either A) you are a heavy drinker or B) you have no idea what so ever about the true affects of Alcohol.... I am sorry to be taking this tone.. but alcohol is by far one of the most dangerous substances on this planet... and while I understand your comment about Bunnies that does not mitigate the HUGE social ills caused by alcoholism....

As per your comment about my patients being mentally retarded BEFORE they became alcoholics... that is categorically untrue.... and if you wish to believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and lived then i cant stop you... however check this out....

Alcohol kills UR BRAIN

Results of autopsy show that patients with a history of chronic alcohol abuse have smaller, less massive, and more shrunken brains than nonalcoholic adults of the same age and gender.1
The findings of brain imaging techniques, such as CT scans consistently show an association between heavy drinking and physical brain damage, even in the -absence of chronic liver disease or dementia.
Brain shrinking is especially extensive in the cortex of the frontal lobe2 - the location of higher cognitive faculties.
The vulnerability to this frontal lobe shrinkage increases with age.3 After 40 some of the changes my be irreversible [see below].
Repeated imaging of a group of alcoholics who continued drinking over a 5-year period showed progressive brain shrinkage that significantly exceeded normal age-related shrinkage. Moreover, the rate of shrinkage correlated with the amount of alcohol consumed.4

or this Alcohol is bad

Number of Deaths and Age-Adjusted Death Rates per 100,000 Population for Categories of Alcohol-Related (A-R) Mortality, United States and States, 1979-96

Here are some good stats.... these kinds of stats don't lie... alcohol kills...


here are some more stats Alcohol KILLS There are some graphs but i don't know how to post them... click the link to see them....

The alcohol­-related death rate in the UK increased from 6.9 per 100,000 population in 1991 to 13.0 in 2004. The number of alcohol-related deaths has more than doubled from 4,144 in 1991 to 8,380 in 2004. These figures are based on a new harmonised definition of alcohol-related deaths that has been recently agreed across the UK. See Notes below for details.

Death rates are much higher for males than females and in recent years the gap between the sexes has widened. In 2004 the male death rate, at 17.7 deaths per 100,000 population, was twice the rate for females (8.5 deaths per 100,000) and males accounted for over two thirds of the total number of deaths.

and just to keep from being nailed for using UK data... here's the CDC data....

CDC data on Alcohol

Number of alcohol-induced deaths, excluding accidents and homicides: 19,928

Number of alcoholic liver disease deaths: 12,121

now the data provided is just a sample of the data available... there is literally millions of pages of data all pointing to the fact that Alcohol kills your brain and more to the point is socially horrid... an alcoholic is just as bad as a doper... a meth head.... a heron addict... the behaviors are strikingly similar... despondence and withdrawal when they don't have it.... elation and strong emotion when they do.... and that doesn't even include how the act when they are on the substance just how the react with and without it....

Yes some people can drink and not have problems... just like some people can do Meth and Heroin a couple times and have no problems... however the VAST majority of the population who drinks exhibit very similar reactions....


SO... you wanted the evidence... here it is....



[edit on 17-8-2006 by Elsenorpompom]

It's the person who uses alcohol irresponsibly who pays the real price. It is the "person" who destroys himself, he just chooses his method of self destruction. Years of alcohol abuse are not the "Alcohol's" fault. "Joe Alcoholic" is the one who drank heavily every day, and ended up in the hospital, puking blood.

I'm not saying that drinking alcohol is necessarily the most sane thing we do, but some of us like hanging out at a bar drinking down some cold ones, playing pool, bowling, or whatever. Many of us still watch what we eat, take our vitamins, work out or whatever, but that doesn't mean we don't enjoy alcohol sometimes. We enjoy cake and ice cream for birthdays, and processed sugar isn't good for us, but we still do it, don't we? We get bruised and battered, break bones and stuff from playing football, but we still do it, don't we? Are we going to ban football, because it's hard on our body?

And alcohol use does not necessarily mean you are the guy who wears a white tank top and beats your wife in a drunken state. Some guys are allready abusive, alcohol or not. I personally know a guy; now, this guy can be quite nasty to his wife, not severely abusive or anything, but verbally nasty sometimes. He never drinks, bar a few times. Then there is this other guy I know, he's one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. He drinks beer and smokes cigars. As far as I can see he loves his wife and treats her well. He's very social with people around him, great guy!

No, I don't support the actions of the person, who gulps down a case of beer a day, and puts alcohol above necessities. You may have seen the person in the grocery store, who doesn't have enough money to cover everything, so he has to put back something. So, what goes back? Food goes back, but not the beer and not the cigarettes. That is poor decision making, and irresponsibility. You feed yourself and your family first, and cover the necessities, then you get the luxury items if you want it and can afford it.

See, I kind of think breaking and bending the rules sometimes can make life more exciting. How fun is life if we walk through it with perfectly sanitised hands and bubble wrap covering everything?

I'm not saying that everyone should grab a bottle of tequila and start drinking, because it's not necessarily for everyone. Some people are totally fine never touching the stuff, and that's totally ok. I'm just saying maybe, that taking a little risk now and then might add a some sparkle to life. And I'm not saying to cheat on your wife or smoke a bag of crack or anything..... I think you know what I mean.

Troy

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
Stellar very rarely am I shocked and appalled...

Liar! What field do you work in again?

however your cavalier response to alcohol leaves one to believe that either A) you are a heavy drinker or B) you have no idea what so ever about the true affects of Alcohol....

Heavy drinking is for people trying to find bottom and i value and appreciate my life too much to waste time on such useless exercises.

I am sorry to be taking this tone.. but alcohol is by far one of the most dangerous substances on this planet...

You do not have to sorry when your aim is to educate the ignorant. Alcohol is not something i really want on the street but i accept that people should be able to make that choice even if they feel so inclined to abuse it.

and while I understand your comment about Bunnies that does not mitigate the HUGE social ills caused by alcoholism....

No it does not and my intention was to point out that we should never forget who lifts the bottle to the mouth in our attempt to solve the problem. If we take alcohol away these people will find something else to feed their self destructive habits so we need to focus on figuring out what drives such a large portion of society to dependence on this obvious 'evil'. Things you probably understand very well?

As per your comment about my patients being mentally retarded BEFORE they became alcoholics... that is categorically untrue.... and if you wish to believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and lived then i cant stop you... however check this out....

Well i did not think i said 'retarded' as much as i said that these people had psychological and mental/societal issues before they got involved with alcohol. Do average well developed functional members of society with no issues just take to drink and turn into maniacs? It's no one's fault, right?

and just to keep from being nailed for using UK data... here's the CDC data....

I don't argue unless i believe i have proof/alternatives to offer so all your data is just fine.

now the data provided is just a sample of the data available... there is literally millions of pages of data all pointing to the fact that Alcohol kills your brain

I have met plenty of people who take a regular drink ( every night before bed) for decades on decades and they seem perfectly capable of having a intelligent discussion so the level of abuse these links refer to does not fall under the realm of 'social drinking' at ALL and whatever damage it seemingly has very little impact.

and more to the point is socially horrid...

I think society has far bigger problems than heavy or social drinking but that's just me...

an alcoholic is just as bad as a doper... a meth head.... a heron addict... the behaviors are strikingly similar... despondence and withdrawal when they don't have it.... elation and strong emotion when they do.... and that doesn't even include how the act when they are on the substance just how the react with and without it....

A alcoholic is worse in my experience....

Yes some people can drink and not have problems... just like some people can do Meth and Heroin a couple times and have no problems... however the VAST majority of the population who drinks exhibit very similar reactions....

Yeah agreed but what percentage actually abuses it? I should go do an investigation ( really no time, sorry) but i think one will find these things are very strongly linked to general poverty and life expectations...

SO... you wanted the evidence... here it is....

Yeah and i appreciate your efforts as i could not find the 'evidence/proof' i was going to defend my earlier remarks ( brain damage = nonsense; I'm sure i had the web links somewhere) with so you clearly have the floor and experience on this issue i hope to never get!

Thanks for the effort and now know where to refer the drinkers to.

Stellar

Stellar is right in my opinion.

Alcohol can be good and bad for you, depending who gets a hold of it, and how he/she uses it.
There are addictive personalities who start drinking, and can't stop. In a way I'm a bit like that with sugar. Luckily I'm aware that too much will cause damage to my body, so I eventually regain my senses.

There are people who are very happy and amusing when drunk, and people who get angry and violent when they're drunk. I've had both kinds in the family. Alcohol is addictive to those with weak willpower. Are they addicted to the substance itself, or to the experience it provides? I don't know. Lots of people drink because they claim it is fun to do (or because it helps them forget), not because they're getting withdrawl pains as far as I'm aware. I used to drink coffee all the time. I primarely enjoyed the taste. Getting wired was alright, but not necessary. I switched to decaf. Then came the headaches. It wasn't a pleasant week-long experience, but I got through it. It is my belief that even caffeine is more addictive than alcohol.

It all depends on the choices you make, and how much will-power you practice. One of my grandfathers was a very violent drunk, but O.K. (as in 'not having chased anyone with an axe') when he was sober. I strongly believe (even if he wasn't diagnosed) that he was a mental case to begin with. His father (my great grandfather) often expressed he was sorry to have given life to such an individual, because he exhibited some symptoms of psychosis from a young age. Not enough to prevent him from functioning like a normal person, but enough to cause damage when intoxicated/ 'uninhibited'. The effects of alcohol just amplified his psychosis x 50.

Alcohol, like most substances that alter your perception in some way (including foods such as sugar) will always have a worse effect on those who ALREADY have a problem. Just look at people addicted to sugar or food. It makes them feel good/comforted, so they basically eat themselves to death. Should we outlaw sugar or food?
I can drink all I want, (which I don't enjoy doing by the way) and I won't go out and try to kill anyone. I have enough sense not to get into a car and drive. I become more social and talkative, because alcohol lessens inhibitions. In other words,... if you're the kind of person who works hard at not punching someone in the face when you're sober, when you're drunk, you'll probably end up punching someone in the end. You basically lose some of your self control, whether you're the shy person, or the violent person. You let your guard down.

Alcohol is used responsibly by billions of people around the world. It is also misused/abused by millions. You can abuse anything, including cars. A fast car can give you a rush when you step on the gas. Those who are responsible people will resist driving over 100 mph. Those who have no self control will step on the gas with no regard as to what might happen. The thrill of speed seems worth the risk to them. I'm one who loves driving fast, but I realize that the consequences could far outweigh the few minutes of fun I would be having. That's what the track is for, to have fun in a safer environment.
Just because some jerk decides to go 150mph and kills himself (and usally kills passengers as well as those outside the car) because he couldn't resist the urge to go fast, does that mean we should outlaw cars? Of course not. This is coming from someone who lost a wonderful family member thanks to one of these idiots. Street racing kills a lot of young people, and does so a lot faster than alcohol. Maybe educating people on how to be responsible might help better than getting rid of alcohol completely. After all, you get rid of alcohol, they'll just move on to something else. People who act irresponsibly with alcohol, usually act irresponsibly in other areas of their lives as well. This is all just based on my opinion. I could be wrong, but that's the way I look at it at this point.

weed it the safest illegel drug you can buy, cause knowone has ever died from smoking weed.

Thread closed

Discussion of illegal substances

2e.) Illegal Activity: Discussion of illegal activities; specifically mind-altering drugs, computer hacking, criminal hate, sexual relations with minors, and stock scams are strictly forbidden.


www.abovetopsecret.com...