Osama and Norad Head to Head

What do you think Osama Bin Laden planned to do about NORAD if they actually showed up. Or when he came up with the whole scheme, do you think he just "hoped" to get around them...

This is a rhetorical question, as i dont believe him to be responsible at all, but i would love to hear opinions from both sides, or possibly an argument.

He took advantage of several things about the US. The institutional arrogance, the lack of SERIOUS radar coverage on the mainland, the almost total stand down of defensive fighters after the cold war, etc.

Norad hadnt stood down since the cold war ended. in the year right before 911, Norad acted on over 67 planes that flew even slightly off course.

I did not say NORAD stood down. I said the ALERT FORCE was stood down. In the 1980s we had over 100 fighters on armed alert across the United States. By 2000, that number (for the 48 contiguous states) was down to between 14 and 21. Some bases had 3, some bases had 2, it would vary from week to week.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
the almost total stand down of defensive fighters after the cold war, etc.

you did say stand down, Norad, which the thread is about, is the only group of defensive fighters in question. Was I too assume you meant something else?

Actually NORAD ISN'T the defensive fighters. The defensive fighters fall under many different commands. NORAD is just the center of US/Canadian defenses. That way they have one location that monitors all the radars, etc. When they want to launch fighters, they call the nearest base and tell them to scramble. If you want the overall headquarters for the Alert Force, you'd have to look at Tyndal AFB Florida. It's a little confusing, because the individual Alert Fighters fall under their squadron command, their wing command, numbered air force command, AND Tyndal command, all of which is to an extent overseen by NORAD.

Not saying that you should have known it, just trying to sort of clear things up a little bit.

im not going to worry about semantics, a collective under the command of NORAD throughout the united states or whatever, you're completely off point and topic. Does anyone feel Osama worried about the trained fighters that intercepted 67 flights in the previous year under the command of NORAD, or do you think he just hoped they wouldnt show when four planes where simultaneously highjacked.

Its a good point to be argued. both sides, if you wanna argue definitions go to a metaphysics class.

well being those 67 intercepts were in the OFFSHORE air defense zone..

Today, things are different. There’s an ADIZ that surrounds Washington, D.C. In the four years after 9/11, it was violated over 1,000 times. The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) has scrambled fighters for intercepts within U.S. borders over 1,600 times. In the year previous to 9/11, NORAD intercepted airplanes in the ADIZ only 67 times, none of which occurred within the U.S. borders.

www.planeandpilotmag.com...

it was offshore, not within contiguous US borders.

Not to mention that once that transponder goes off, the odds of even FINDING the plane are much slimmer. Primary radar systems only go up to 18,000 for tracking purposes, and Secondary systems won't track without a transponder. The FAA CAN track without a transponder, but it gets much harder to do real time.

Edit to add:
It's not really semantics, because only the launch orders come from NORAD, and NORAD wasn't stood down. Just the Alert Force.

[edit on 8/7/2006 by Zaphod58]

AFAIK noone has any proof that Osama himself planned the attacks, it could easily been the hijackers themselves or others within the group. I don't think they had any plan for what to do if fighters showed up, because no hijacking before 9/11 involved purposely killing themselves and the passengers by using the plane to ram into buildings. In most hijackings the passengers were released after the demands were met, and if the plane was shot down over a populated area, there would be hell to pay for whoever gave the order.

Does anyone feel Osama worried about the trained fighters that intercepted 67 flights in the previous year under the command of NORAD, or do you think he just hoped they wouldnt show when four planes where simultaneously highjacked.

There weren't 67 intercepts the previous year, it was 67 scrambles, not intercepts. In the decade before 9/11, there was only 1 case of an intercept over US soil. All other intercepts were offshore.

911myths.com...

if you subscribe to the official dealio, youre correct, there is no evidence of osama planning it; only khalid sheik mohammed. all osama and zawahiri do is give the go ahead. but again thats only if you believe it

In a decade preceding 0911 there were hundreds of intercepts - all but one over the ADIZ, ie far off shore. The only case was Payne Stewart's tragedy and even though the plane in question had its transpoder on and flew straight line, it took better part of two hours to intercept it. All attempts before that were hampered by lack of fuel (for example F-16's returning from a training).
On 0911 the system worked faster than planned, in fact. Commander of Otis put his readiness F-15's initiatively on battle stations status at the first sign of problems, so they were able to take off in six minutes instead 15 minutes requested by SOP when the NORAD called in.
Also the pilots have decided to use afterburner (not a SOP) to get to place faster.
Yet, not fast enough.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
He took advantage of several things about the US. The institutional arrogance, the lack of SERIOUS radar coverage on the mainland, the almost total stand down of defensive fighters after the cold war, etc.

My question is...how did Bin Laden know all this to be true?

Because it was all either publicised, or available information if you knew where to look for it. Basic radar operation is easy to find out, and during the major cutbacks of the military during the 90s it was publicised in several places about them cutting back the Alert Force.

My question is...how did Bin Laden know all this to be true?

Read the rest of the thread before replying.

AFAIK noone has any proof that Osama himself planned the attacks, it could easily been the hijackers themselves or others within the group.

if you subscribe to the official dealio, youre correct, there is no evidence of osama planning it; only khalid sheik mohammed. all osama and zawahiri do is give the go ahead. but again thats only if you believe it

What makes you think they had any plans at all, I would presume the plan went as far as 'hijack planes, crash them into these buildings'. Do you have any evidence otherwise? The hijackers wouldn't have any reason to care if they succeded or not, they were going to get their reward for being a martyr as long as they died in the attempt.

i agree to a point, mr pointy (no pun intended). although i do agree martyrdom would be one of their top priorities, i also think succeeding was just as important.

My opinion on the matter is that they probably felt they had enough planes that at least some would get through. I bet they felt pretty confident the first 2 at least would make it. And the fact that they turned off the transponders, picked certian times and flights, is evidence that they took these things into consideration. I'm sure they felt that even if some of the planes were stopped, it would still have the same impact. Even if 77 had been stopped, i don't think it would have changed much. Just the hitting the WTC alone, even if it had only been one plane is pretty devistating enough.

I kind of doubt that they expected the buildings to collapse though. I think the point was jsut to strike fear into america that we were and are vulnerable as well as to make the population aware of what is going on across the world.