Christianity: A great conspiracy

EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some observations on the word 'revelation.' Revelation when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication. After this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner, for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables of the commandments from the hand of God, they were not obliged to believe him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling them so; and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling me so, the commandments carrying no internal evidence of divinity with them. They contain some good moral precepts such as any man qualified to be a lawgiver or a legislator could produce himself, without having recourse to supernatural intervention.

[NOTE: It is, however, necessary to except the declamation which says that God 'visits the sins of the fathers upon the children'. This is contrary to every principle of moral justice.--Author.]

When I am told that the Koran was written in Heaven, and brought to Mahomet by an angel, the account comes to near the same kind of hearsay evidence and second hand authority as the former. I did not see the angel myself, and therefore I have a right not to believe it.

When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only reported by others that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence.

[edit on 9-8-2006 by masqua]

It is, however, not difficult to account for the credit that was given to the story of Jesus Christ being the Son of God. He was born when the heathen mythology had still some fashion and repute in the world, and that mythology had prepared the people for the belief of such a story. Almost all the extraordinary men that lived under the heathen mythology were reputed to be the sons of some of their gods. It was not a new thing at that time to believe a man to have been celestially begotten; the intercourse of gods with women was then a matter of familiar opinion. Their Jupiter, according to their accounts, had cohabited with hundreds; the story therefore had nothing in it either new, wonderful, or obscene; it was conformable to the opinions that then prevailed among the people called Gentiles, or mythologists, and it was those people only that believed it. The Jews, who had kept strictly to the belief of one God, and no more, and who had always rejected the heathen mythology, never credited the story.

It is curious to observe how the theory of what is called the Christian Church, sprung out of the tail of the heathen mythology. A direct incorporation took place in the first instance, by making the reputed founder to be celestially begotten. The trinity of gods that then followed was no other than a reduction of the former plurality, which was about twenty or thirty thousand. The statue of Mary succeeded the statue of Diana of Ephesus. The deification of heroes changed into the canonization of saints. The Mythologists had gods for everything; the Christian Mythologists had saints for everything. The church became as crowded with the one, as the pantheon had been with the other; and Rome was the place of both. The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.

www.ushistory.org...

And that was known by Paine over 200 years ago. It is amazing how logic and reason and passed by most Americans.

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MOD EDIT
included link

Please give us some more personal opinion on Paine and his thoughts...


[edit on 9-8-2006 by masqua]

Nice post... you think all of this would be so logically apparent to all of society, but the need for religion surpasses logic. As clearly as you and I see the things that support a non-biblical Earth and life, a believer has the same clarity for his/her beliefs or at least gives that impression.

After much discussion and research... I have come to my own conclusion that not religion, science, or other beliefs can be proved or disproved. Mainly because when put to the test the believer in which ever set of beliefs will defend beyond logic. Using theory or divinity as the "answer-all".
Example of both..
Religion(pretty easy here): God did it
Science: Dark matter, which was just made up to explain the faults in gravity on the galactic scale(Newton's laws failed on this grand scale).

So It all comes down to faith. What we are willing to put our faith into. I haven't really chosen faith in anything. I have just extracted it from the bible after coming to my OWN decision that it is fantastical.

Good Day

It is insane for men to follow a faith such as Christanity, which has been so clearly prooven to be based on lies, blasphamy, rape and murder.

Rev Paine, i do not fully understanded your first sentence? What do you mean by "pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals."

Also with Christianity how come you say "God was not open to every man alike"?

Originally posted by Rev Paine
It is insane for men to follow a faith such as Christanity, which has been so clearly prooven to be based on lies, blasphamy, rape and murder.

How has this been proved?

I agree that you are not obliged to believe in any religion and it is difficult to believe if you havent had any first hand experiences or 'revelations' as you mention. That is why we also call a religion a 'faith'. You believe because you have faith in what you have heard and read.

Revelations do happen. Some people become christians because God revealed himself to them maybe through some miracle or other event in their life.

Now that i think about it revelations happen to every Christian. Christianity is about having a relationship with God. God speaks to you and you speak to God through prayer.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Rev Paine, i do not fully understanded your first sentence? What do you mean by "pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals."

It means that organized religion merely pretends to be on a special mission from God, and that they claim that God only communicated with a select few "special" individuals.

Also with Christianity how come you say "God was not open to every man alike"?

Because, as with all mythology, the Christian deity only speaks to a small few, and not all men.

Originally posted by Rev Paine
It is insane for men to follow a faith such as Christanity, which has been so clearly prooven to be based on lies, blasphamy, rape and murder.

How has this been proved?

With the Bible, of course.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
I agree that you are not obliged to believe in any religion and it is difficult to believe if you havent had any first hand experiences or 'revelations' as you mention. That is why we also call a religion a 'faith'. You believe because you have faith in what you have heard and read.

Revelations do happen. Some people become christians because God revealed himself to them maybe through some miracle or other event in their life.

Now that i think about it revelations happen to every Christian. Christianity is about having a relationship with God. God speaks to you and you speak to God through prayer.

What has "god" told you?

Originally posted by Rev Paine

Originally posted by LancerJ1
I agree that you are not obliged to believe in any religion and it is difficult to believe if you havent had any first hand experiences or 'revelations' as you mention. That is why we also call a religion a 'faith'. You believe because you have faith in what you have heard and read.

Revelations do happen. Some people become christians because God revealed himself to them maybe through some miracle or other event in their life.

Now that i think about it revelations happen to every Christian. Christianity is about having a relationship with God. God speaks to you and you speak to God through prayer.

What has "god" told you?

Im not talking about hearing a booming voice in the air. But God speaking to you through your conscience. God may put thoughts in your mind. If im in a situation where i am tempted to do wrong the Holy Spirit helps me to resist.

For some other examples:

When i was in grade 2 at school the class was told to close their eyes and to listen (in their mind) to hear if God was saying anything. Me and about 95% of the class 'heard' God say "i love you". The other 5% heard God say he wants them to tell other people about him.

This year i was at a camp and a youth leader came to talk to the group. At the end we had a prayer. The youth leader took about 1min 'listening' to God and then prayed. He was able to pray specifically about some of the people in my group talking about there sicknesses or other problems in their life without knowing anything about it beforehand. He didnt use their names.

ALL WHO WILL LISTEN, PLEASE READ MY WORDS..

I'm a Judeo-Christian.

I put Judeo first, because they share the same God.

Also, because Jews have worshipped without a central place of worship, in exile, for thousands of years. They needed not "be saved" on a television show, or donate to the 700 club, or be a part of any chuch of any denomination.

The Church exists inside each believer. The Church is where you praise and worship God, well I do that everywhere. Everywhere cant be a temple, so the temple is inside of me.

Evangelicalism and Catholicism and strict church doctrines have made modern society afraid / against religon even more so than normal. Then, these same types of Christian Extremists have bloodied the centuries past with Inquisitions and Crusades.

This is not Christianity. This is not the Church. Jesus said he would destroy and rebuild the Temple in 3 days. Why? Because it would only take him 3 days to spread the seed of the real Church, the worship of the one God, to his followers and thus their followers and so on up to modern day. So he did rebuild the Temple in 3 days, IMO.

But I do not think he was the literal son of God, God doesnt have literal birthed Children. If they think God impregnated Mary supernaturally, then that still isnt God's sperm and God's penis, i'd like to think God is above the physical realm of such things. God sent him, yes. He was divine, yes, but he was not the LITERAL WALKING GOD INCARNATE. This is Idolatry, and he warned against it. Churchs worship JESUS'S IMAGE, not God.

Lastly, to address your thing on Moshi, or Moses, and how the Israelites, some .. didn't want to believe because it was on one man's word alone, Moses, since they didnt witness it. Well, this is true. It's in Deuteronomy. All those that doubted were subsequently slain and routed in battle against Og of Bashaan & his forces(there are tales of him having a 13ft long bed) after they went into battle without faith in their God, with fear of their enemy in their heart. In fact, Moses says they were routed like a bunch of buzzing bees, such was the sight.

The sins of the father visiting the son was not literally meant. If your father killed someone in cold blood, this does not imply that you, his son, will have a messed up life and not be in God's favor because of your father's sin. It's meant more like.. if the Father doesnt set a good example for his Son his Son will do as he will do, and as we know generation after generation take on their parents' habits. For example, my Father smokes cigarettes, and was/is an alcoholic. I dont talk to him so I dunno. But, I too smoke cigarettes, and I am not much for alcohol but have addictive tendencies with things at times. His sins have visited me because he didn't stop them himself. I hope this explains somewhat.

[edit on 23-8-2006 by runetang]

Originally posted by LancerJ1


When i was in grade 2 at school the class was told to close their eyes and to listen (in their mind) to hear if God was saying anything. Me and about 95% of the class 'heard' God say "i love you". The other 5% heard God say he wants them to tell other people about him.

That's called the power of suggestion.

This year i was at a camp and a youth leader came to talk to the group. At the end we had a prayer. The youth leader took about 1min 'listening' to God and then prayed. He was able to pray specifically about some of the people in my group talking about there sicknesses or other problems in their life without knowing anything about it beforehand. He didnt use their names.

I do the same trick at parties.

Originally posted by runetang
ALL WHO WILL LISTEN, PLEASE READ MY WORDS..

I'm a Judeo-Christian.

I put Judeo first, because they share the same God.

Also, because Jews have worshipped without a central place of worship, in exile, for thousands of years. They needed not "be saved" on a television show, or donate to the 700 club, or be a part of any chuch of any denomination.

The Church exists inside each believer. The Church is where you praise and worship God, well I do that everywhere. Everywhere cant be a temple, so the temple is inside of me.

Evangelicalism and Catholicism and strict church doctrines have made modern society afraid / against religon even more so than normal. Then, these same types of Christian Extremists have bloodied the centuries past with Inquisitions and Crusades.

This is not Christianity. This is not the Church. Jesus said he would destroy and rebuild the Temple in 3 days. Why? Because it would only take him 3 days to spread the seed of the real Church, the worship of the one God, to his followers and thus their followers and so on up to modern day. So he did rebuild the Temple in 3 days, IMO.

But I do not think he was the literal son of God, God doesnt have literal birthed Children. If they think God impregnated Mary supernaturally, then that still isnt God's sperm and God's penis, i'd like to think God is above the physical realm of such things. God sent him, yes. He was divine, yes, but he was not the LITERAL WALKING GOD INCARNATE. This is Idolatry, and he warned against it. Churchs worship JESUS'S IMAGE, not God.

Lastly, to address your thing on Moshi, or Moses, and how the Israelites, some .. didn't want to believe because it was on one man's word alone, Moses, since they didnt witness it. Well, this is true. It's in Deuteronomy. All those that doubted were subsequently slain and routed in battle against Og of Bashaan & his forces(there are tales of him having a 13ft long bed) after they went into battle without faith in their God, with fear of their enemy in their heart. In fact, Moses says they were routed like a bunch of buzzing bees, such was the sight.

The sins of the father visiting the son was not literally meant. If your father killed someone in cold blood, this does not imply that you, his son, will have a messed up life and not be in God's favor because of your father's sin. It's meant more like.. if the Father doesnt set a good example for his Son his Son will do as he will do, and as we know generation after generation take on their parents' habits. For example, my Father smokes cigarettes, and was/is an alcoholic. I dont talk to him so I dunno. But, I too smoke cigarettes, and I am not much for alcohol but have addictive tendencies with things at times. His sins have visited me because he didn't stop them himself. I hope this explains somewhat.

You've actually not explained anyting.

God also speaks to us through the Bible.

If I was to chose a religion in which to put my faith, I think it would probably be Zoroastrian. Here's an interesting article on the Simplicity of the Zoroastrian faith:

The Simplicity of the Zoroastrian faith

Things like:

If we live our lives with goodness towards all creations, then it can also influence others to goodness, and this in turn would set in motion a cycle of good deeds that goes on forever.

The religion does not demand blind belief but reason and action on the part of every individual. It is not a prescriptive ethic, based on obedience and fear, but rather an ethic of personal responsibility.

Now, in my opinion that sounds like a religion worth following. And it's not some new fangled one either!

Gosh, I hope not. Though I feel the United States have info sources within the Iranian Gov, or have Turkish spies or Iranian sources to most critical interests, ie Nuclear enrichment areas.

Dallas

Originally posted by Rev Paine
You've actually not explained anyting.

Actually I have, you probably didn't like the answer, considering what I explained, or my viewpoint rather, would be considered heretical to all those "true christians". But you were saying Christianity is a conspiracy, well you were really just quoting text but thats what the text said. Naturally if I disagree and bring a moderate, easier to follow viewpoint on Christianity you will say I've explained nothing. To you it is nothing.

I hope everyone gets to witness Judgement; I'd love to hear what is said by God to the flock of seagulls.

[edit on 10-9-2006 by runetang]

What about Buddhism or the Hare Krishna movement ?