Lebanese Army May Enter Fight

Ok, before I begin this, I just want to emphasise that this post is going to be a long one. I have a lot of stuff to respond to, so bear with me everyone. Without further adieu, let's begin.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!

Harboring terrorists? Where the hell do you think those guys came from that destroyed the twin towers. US flight schools! Isn't that harboring terrorism? Every country 'harbors' (is home to) terrorists...past, present and future terrorists. I don't think a country is responsible for terrorists. If some nut in the US got hold of a nuke, and hit like, Russia or something. Do you think Russia should level the US, because that's where the nut came from?! Or even the guy's home town?

The difference between the current situation in Israel and the one you mentioned is the fact that this group of people (Hezbollah) are by definition terrorists. Let me also remind you that they were the ones that thought it was best to kidnap Israeli soldiers, all the while hitting Israel with rocket attacks, which went directly against the peace treaty they signed with Israel. If I'm Israel, I'd be for defending that which is rightfully mine, that being the land they stand on and the safety and security that that should bring.

Lest I not also remind you that the terrorists that resided here attacked this country, not some other. Why do you think that Hezbollah started attacking Israel? It wasn't because of the invasion, because they were hitting Northern Israel with rockets long before this little battle started. I think it's because they wanted to get Israel involved in the conflict, to start a Lebanese Civil War, so that they might try to overthrow the rest of the dissenters in the Lebanese Government. Just my thoughts on the situation at this time. These thoughts are prone to change.

Now, I'm not picking on you personally. I've seen many people make this accusation against Lebanon. Can anyone explain to me why bombing civilians in a country is ok, because that happens to be where some uncontrollable nuts are!

Well, ask Hezbollah that, because they've been doing it for years. I find it interesting that people, myself included on occassion, will intentionally leave certain points out because it hurts their argument. There are some things in this little conflict that I'm sure I don't know, but I believe that I have a reasonable picture of the situation, and it's not pretty for Hezbollah.

They've created a volatile situation for themselves, as well as the rest of the state of Lebanon. Why the rest of the Lebanese government doesn't do something about it is beyond me. Maybe it's because they fear a civil war. If that's so, then they should have had the civil war, because now they have the whole world poking thier collective noses into their business. Either way, something needs to happen. Someone needs to WIN so that there can be peace, or at least a chance for it. Whatever happens, war is on their horizon, no matter what they do.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Not really, it's only been- what?- 60 years? That's not that long, especially to people whose civilizations have lasted for millenia.

Well, I'm referring to a 4.5 millenia old conflict here. One that's been raging with these two tribes for eons. The Israelis took it from the current Palastinians during some 3000 to 4000 years ago, and they've been there ever since. The recent problems (since Israel declared Independence in 1947), have been about the rest of the Arab world hating them for having the ability to take something away. No, it's not nice to have something taken away, but when the powers that be demand it, what can you do? Spit in His face? Not a wise idea, since the current situation is a direct result of said actions.

Please don't use the massacre of the Native peoples as a shining example of how people can work together. That was a terrible moment in history and no one else should ever have to experience that again. But, to address the analogy, the only reason it worked out that way was because the Native Americans didn't have any equally- armed allies. If they had, I can bet the US would have had a little more trouble expanding.

I never said it was a shining example. It's merely the first example that came to mind. I don't like the history anymore than anyone else, but the same truths apply now as they did then.

On topic, the Lebanese army has to enter the fight, to protect its own statehood and, like someone else said, I'm amazed at their restraint thus far. Protecting one's sovereignty should never be considered a "terrorist activity."

As to "who started it," this time at least, I read (somewhere on this site) that Lebanon had discovered a Mossad cell in its territory recently. Then, Israel kidnapped several Middle Eastern law-makers (from either Palestine or Lebanon, can't remember). If that is the case, and there is some kind of agreement between Hezbollah and Hamas, then the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers would have to be seen as a retaliatory act, one that Israel would have expected, yes?

Perhaps. And if that's true, my criticisms may be wrong. Can you provide a link to a source please?

Either way, one must admit that Lebanon has been lobbing rockets into Northern Israel for years now. At some point, it has to stop, no? Israel needs to learn to make peace with all of her allies before she ends up wiping them out again. I truly feel sorry for everyone over there going through this. I hope everything works out peacefully, but I don't hold much hope of that anymore. Too many people are making too much money off of these conflicts to have them stop. I foresee more of this kind of thing in the near future.

TheBorg

Have any of you witness or heard of children fighting over the inheritance of parents?

This is what is going on in the Middle East. The inheritance went to Israel and the half brothers don't like it.

Now, has the Lebanese army moved in yet? See my first post.


Roper

PS. Show me any war where innocents were not killed. This is what happens in war, how war is won and peace achieved.

I would STRONGLY recommend that everyone read this (the whole thing):

Hezbollah

I don't know how many of you consider Wikipedia as a reliable source of information, but from what I read thus far, it seems neutral on the issue, strictly documenting the history of this organization. It is my humble opinion that it will provide you with enough information to make up your own mind, and maybe give you a closer look as to what is going on, and why it is happening. I realize it is a long read, but once again,....in my opinion,...well worth the time.

P.S. all the notes and sources are listed at the end of the page, so I suppose you can pick out what you trust and don't trust.

[edit on 26-7-2006 by 2manyquestions]

TheBorg

So you think Hizb'Allah is trying to start a civil war in Lebanon, so they can take over the country?

I never thought of it like that.
However, I still think Israel should be more careful with the bomb placements. After all, The lebanonese civilias (most anyway, ) aren't ramming Isreal with bomb showers, it's Hizb'Allah. A group that you would think most Lebanese would want out of their country.

I think someone said that, the Lebanese prefer Hizb'Allah over Israel because only Israel hits them with bombs....But I think the Lebanese would hate Hizb'Allah, since that's the only reason why Israel would attack Lebanon.

I feel sorry for the Lebanese. They have a band of idiots integrating within their government and causing the most up-to-date military in the Mid-East (if not the world) to retaliate on civilians.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Israel is to balme for this mess either. I just think they're not handling it correctly.

Why should we feel sorry for the Lebanese? They elected those officials to the offices they hold.

I can't even feel sorry for the US' current problems, because we the people have allowed the few at the top to take more power than is rightfully their's. It's just the way things work in any society where a few run the rest. It's called greed, and it's nothing to be trifled with.

I only feel sorry for the poor poor souls that will never know the truth of what's going on here because they lost their lives for a fight which they knew little to nothing about. They are the ones that could have made all of the difference, had they known the truth, and that's the saddest thing of all; that some of the best trained minds in the world are also some of the most brainwashed.

If only they knew.

TheBorg

Originally posted by TheBorg
The recent problems (since Israel declared Independence in 1947), have been about the rest of the Arab world hating them for having the ability to take something away. No, it's not nice to have something taken away, but when the powers that be demand it, what can you do? Spit in His face? Not a wise idea, since the current situation is a direct result of said actions.

Who, in this case, are the powers that be? This is what wiki says, "Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it." If the Arab League rejected it, why is anyone surprised that the Arab world is pissed? Shouldn't they be? If they were important enough to call to the table in that period of negotiation, why weren't their feelings considered in the final result? At that very moment, future Israelis should have been astute enough to know that their neighbors would never allow them a moment of peace.

I never said it was a shining example. It's merely the first example that came to mind. I don't like the history anymore than anyone else, but the same truths apply now as they did then.

I don't know about that...Native Americans weren't out-manned, they were out-gunned. Hezbollah is getting some decent firepower from Iran, Syria, and North Korea, so they may prove a more formidable opponent than guerrilla forces of the past.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
As to "who started it," this time at least, I read (somewhere on this site) that Lebanon had discovered a Mossad cell in its territory recently. Then, Israel kidnapped several Middle Eastern law-makers (from either Palestine or Lebanon, can't remember). If that is the case, and there is some kind of agreement between Hezbollah and Hamas, then the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers would have to be seen as a retaliatory act, one that Israel would have expected, yes?

Originally posted by TheBorg
Perhaps. And if that's true, my criticisms may be wrong. Can you provide a link to a source please?

This is the ATS thread: Mossad Terror Cell Busted In Lebanon, dated 6/18/06. Unfortunately, the article on Yahoo can't be found, and the one at the Lebanese Daily Star requires registration, but here's the snippet of the full article that they allowed me to see: "Officials from across Lebanon's political spectrum united against Israel Friday, demanding that the international community take action against Israel's Mossad for "carrying out several assassinations of Lebanese and Palestinian figures on Lebanese soil.""

And here's a link about the alleged kidnappings: Israel Kidnaps as Hostages Palestinian MPs, Cabinet Ministers, dated 6/29/06. I don't know anything about the site, but the article centered around facts, not rhetoric, so it may be okay as a source. I don't have a source for any Hamas-Hezbollah alliance, but I figured they'd be natural allies, against Israel at least.

The links I provided seem to give evidence to the "Israel started it" theory, this time anyway, since the Palestinian peace thing that preceded this most recent assault on Gaza. If this stuff is true, then Israel, during peace talks, kidnapped 18 Palestinian politians, while also assasinating political figures on Lebanese soil.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by TheBorg
Why should we feel sorry for the Lebanese? They elected those officials to the offices they hold.

I can't even feel sorry for the US' current problems, because we the people have allowed the few at the top to take more power than is rightfully their's.

51% of us.

I'm not familiar with the Lebanese, but I don't think 100% of them back their crappy government either. You're forgetting. In a democracy, have live in their country, the other half are waiting to live in their country once the other half is done. So statistically, half of those Lebanese civilians that were killed, didn't even like their governemt.

That's who I feel sorry for. As I said before, I don't think this is Israel's fault, as they've been taking crap from Hezbollah for a while. But shouldn't they hit Hezbollah where the head office is? Iran? Or can Israel not handle it?

Double post...

[edit on 7/27/2006 by Arcane Demesne]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Who, in this case, are the powers that be? ...

The powers that be that I was referring to, in this case anyway, was the Christian God. But, since I'm a Christian, of course my views on some things will be skewed. It's a natural part of existence to see things in a different way than others. That's how we grow intellectually.

I don't know about that...Native Americans weren't out-manned, they were out-gunned. Hezbollah is getting some decent firepower from Iran, Syria, and North Korea, so they may prove a more formidable opponent than guerrilla forces of the past.

We'll just have to wait and see. With the news that Iranian troops are enroute to Lebanon right now, I'm afraid things are about to get much uglier before they get better. Iran may have just crossed the line from spectator to target.

...
The links I provided seem to give evidence to the "Israel started it" theory, this time anyway, since the Palestinian peace thing that preceded this most recent assault on Gaza. If this stuff is true, then Israel, during peace talks, kidnapped 18 Palestinian politians, while also assasinating political figures on Lebanese soil.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by HarlemHottie]

Well, you said it yourself, that these "Israeli kidnappings" were nothing more than hearsay. The facts of the case are that 18 lebanese politicians went missing. It's suspected that they were kidnapped by Israel. No proof has come to light that confirms nor denies that claim. I'll wait for more proof. If that's true though, it'll definitely be bad for Israel's plans for long-term peace in the region.

I want it noted at this time, that while I support Israel for the most part, as a state, she has done things in the past that by all rights she shouldn't be allowed to get away with. Even the best-behaved people on the planet have a bad day, and act out. Israel is no different. There are times during everyone's lifetimes that they deserve a good ole-fashioned butt-whoopin. Israel may be in need of that right now. I don't believe that's so, but to remain objective, I must at least consider the possibility.

Also, assuming they did kidnap those 18 cabinet members, isn't it possible that they arrested them because of the continued suicide bombings, perpetrated by the Palastinians. They broke the very peace treaty they signed by doing that, and that derailed that line of peace talks immediately. Palastine has a way of catastrophically preventing any long-term peacefull periods in Israel. It's my wish that they all could learn to just live separately, and to accept that the other is there and isn't going away. Once that's done, then maybe peace can be established. Until then, let the killing continue.

Originally posted by by Arcane Demesne
51% of us.

I'm not familiar with the Lebanese, but I don't think 100% of them back their crappy government either. You're forgetting. In a democracy, have live in their country, the other half are waiting to live in their country once the other half is done. So statistically, half of those Lebanese civilians that were killed, didn't even like their governemt.

That's who I feel sorry for. As I said before, I don't think this is Israel's fault, as they've been taking crap from Hezbollah for a while. But shouldn't they hit Hezbollah where the head office is? Iran? Or can Israel not handle it?

They don't want to provoke any more trouble than is necessary to secure their borders. Hell, here in the US, we're dealing with our own border issues because the government doesn't seem that interested in keeping illegals out. Too easy to pay them $0.25/hr to do the work that they should be paying us citizens $7.35/hr to do.

To me, and this is just my opinion here, the corporations own it all now, the people included. Feudalism has been reinstated, and with minimal damage to society. It was a clever series of steps that led to this point. Steps that are so mundane by themselves that they seem almost irrelevant. Yet they are all too relevant to the major point here, which is that the US citizens have been duped by the corporations into believing that they have our best interests at heart, when it's their own interests that they're after, not our's.

How does this apply to this situation, you ask? Well, it's my opinion that these very same corporations have financed the conflict from the very beginning, as a way to put influence on the development of the region. Maybe I'm wrong, and then again, maybe I've just nailed the truth right on the head. More research will tell me more. Until then though, keep an eye on this situation, and watch for corporations moving in all over the world, and when they do, remember who they are, as that's all important in understanding who did what.

TheBorg

Originally posted by TheBorg

They don't want to provoke any more trouble than is necessary to secure their borders. Hell, here in the US, we're dealing with our own border issues because the government doesn't seem that interested in keeping illegals out. Too easy to pay them $0.25/hr to do the work that they should be paying us citizens $7.35/hr to do.

To me, and this is just my opinion here, the corporations own it all now, the people included. Feudalism has been reinstated, and with minimal damage to society. It was a clever series of steps that led to this point. Steps that are so mundane by themselves that they seem almost irrelevant. Yet they are all too relevant to the major point here, which is that the US citizens have been duped by the corporations into believing that they have our best interests at heart, when it's their own interests that they're after, not our's.

How does this apply to this situation, you ask? Well, it's my opinion that these very same corporations have financed the conflict from the very beginning, as a way to put influence on the development of the region. Maybe I'm wrong, and then again, maybe I've just nailed the truth right on the head. More research will tell me more. Until then though, keep an eye on this situation, and watch for corporations moving in all over the world, and when they do, remember who they are, as that's all important in understanding who did what.

TheBorg

NOW WE AGREE!!!

What companies (other than munitions, and oil) would profit from war though? Is it just a very few companies that have their fat hands stuck in the jar? If so, you'd hink we'd be able to walk into the kitchen and find them there, red handed.

Although, if you think about it (obviously you have ), these top company owners/share holders probably have multiple passports and are citizens to many countries. Not paying taxes to any of them and using those individual country's laws against them while 'there'. So they make there illlegal begotten billions.

All so innocent life can be shed, for their profit. At least most of us here on ATS can agree that no matter the war at hand; only business, not the stronger country, will win in the end.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Are you people serious?

Are y'all SERIOUSLY condemning the Lebanese army for possibly preparing to attack Israel? Are y'all high? Israel is launching friggin' rockets at their damn country! Xmotex's analogy was on point.

And don't give me the terrorism crap. Any domestic issues are moot when another country attacks you. Hell, I'm surprised the Lebanese army hasn't started blowing up Israeli forces already.

Wow...:shk:

No. just the people that allow terrorists to control Lebanon. Maybe you haven't noticed, don't know how you could with the media being so one sided and all. The IDF gives warnings. The other side is targeting cities. The IDF is on the border with tanks and all but they aren't under attack from these missles that are striking Isrealis every day.

Now I have some time in the military but I'm no general. I can say this though, attack the opposing sides military, duh, but they aren't. They are attacking civilians with ill repute. Bad idea unless you controlled the media and UN. Then it's a good plan, especially if you won't allow civilians to leave the areas the IDF are attacking but the IDF allow the civilians to hide from these attacks.