Why is Isreal regarded as non existent???

I hope this will be a useful thread for noobs (like myself) who are not familiar with why the mideast is the way it is.
www.science.co.il...

The above link is a brief history of Isreal. I have a few questions though.

1. It seems (from the link, which could be wrong) that Isreal has always existed. Why do people always claim that it is a fake regime.

2. This may seem silly, but I am serious: Why is most of the surrounding countries CONSTANTLY fighting with Isreal?

3. Why is the US so gung ho about supporting Isreal?

Israel is as legitimate as a nation any on the planet. They have existed in those lands since the very beginning of time. But it was not that many decades ago they got Israel as it is today.

But Arabs want that land, and they hate the Israeli’s so much they will do anything to get that land back. Sharing the land is not acceptable; they see the Jews as subhuman monkeys. Not a joke, says so in the Quran, something about fishing on the Sabbath and they were turned to monkeys or apes as punishment. Most Arabs hate the Jews so much they would not hesitate to kill them at the drop of a hat (and do so daily).

Look at the president of Iran; he has banned any map in all of Iran that shows Israel on it. You can’t even call the region the “Middle East” for that matter; it has to be “Persia”. And don’t forget the calls for its destruction on a daily basis.

Bottom line is that the Israelis have that land, and their claim is as legitimate as any other land on Earth. But as long as the Arab and Persian worlds hate the Jews and teach their children to hate the Jews, that land will be a war zone.


[edit on 14-7-2006 by skippytjc]

Ok, so why do they want that land so bad?

Why is there so much hatred.


thanks for replying also

[edit on 14-7-2006 by lardo5150]

Originally posted by lardo5150
Ok, so why do they want that land so bad?
[edit on 14-7-2006 by lardo5150]

you could turn that around and say why did the west want it so bad, and created israel?

Originally posted by andy1033


you could turn that around and say why did the west want it so bad, and created israel?

Fair enough. but that is basically why I created this discussion. One side says Isreal always existed, the others say it was created. I am not looking for the exact truth, because both sides see it differently. I am hoping people from both sides post on here and respectivly try to explain why each side has its point of view.
This way, we can get a good understanding of why things are the way they are today.

Good response though andy

Originally posted by lardo5150
Why is there so much hatred.

Because Sarah was stupid enough to let her husband Abraham sleep with her maid Hagar, resulting in Ishmael. Then she got jealous, and talked her husband into kicking them out of the family camp.

Yes it's a major oversimplification, but I thought I'd go all the way back to the beginning. It kind of puts the whole mess into perspective for me.

The entire history of Israel will give you a better look at the politics and religious implications of their existence.

Is not easy to be a the only nation amount Arab country that do no follow the same believes than the rest.

That makes them unique and a target.

Sometimes I wonder if they had taken a land with oil things would be different.

All I know is Israel creation was stupid. You dont send all the Jews to a land where they are surronded by people who they hate. Of course the Palenstians hate Israel. Israel moved into Palenstine in 1947 and kicked all the Palenstinans out of their land. Displaced so many of them. If I was a Palenstian I would hold a grudge agaisnt Israel too. Im tired of everyone supporting Israel on everything they do. The Israelis are just as bad as the Palenstians. They both kill civilans.

because one day israel decided they get all the land because their "god" said they could.

think about that line very carefully.

The reason the united states and other non-arab countries support israel is because it is their path into the middle-east, we wouldnt even be involved with Iran if they werent enemies with israel, and if we go to war with iran, its proof that we have sold out to israel, and that they control our country.

I support palestine, i respect the arab nations that support palestine also, since they are doing the right thing and not giving into israel and its western slaves.
Think of it as if one day every native american here in the states decided they want their land back, so with canadian and mexican help they invade, shove every non-native american into montana , and then expect sympathy?

Israel is a plague, a plague on not just the middle east , but the whole world, Hitler was taking a right step with his movement, but its up to us to finish the job. Give the land back to palestine.
Israel is already rich, i mean more then half of our foriegn aid goes towards israel in compensation for the holocaust, i mean because we the american people are responsible for something that happened 70+ years ago, so now our tax money goes towards the jews,and day by day israelies attack the palestinians funded by our tax dollars, and if palestine or neighbooring countries decide to help their friend, just like how the US and europeon countries are supporting israel, they become labeled an enemy, and threats of war begin to pop up. look at Iran, Iraq and Syria i mean they supported terrorists and have WMD's right?!

Why the arabs may not be accepting Israel.

From among the several authorities of international law who have questioned the validity of the Mandate, the views of Professor Henry Cattan may be quoted:

"The Palestine Mandate was invalid on three grounds set out hereinafter.

"1. The first ground of invalidity of the Mandate is that by endorsing the Balfour Declaration and accepting the concept of the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine it violated the sovereignty of the people of Palestine and their natural rights of independence and self-determination. Palestine was the national home of the Palestinians from time immemorial. The establishment of a national home for an alien people in that country was a violation of the legitimate and fundamental rights of the inhabitants. The League of Nations did not possess the power, any more than the British Government did, to dispose of Palestine, or to grant to the Jews any political or territorial rights in that country. In so far as the Mandate purported to recognize any rights for alien Jews in Palestine, it was null and void.

"2. The second ground of invalidity of the Mandate is that it violated, in spirit and in letter, Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, under the authority of which it purported to be made. The Mandate violated Article 22 in three respects:

"(a) The Covenant had envisaged the Mandate as the best method of achieving its basic objective of ensuring the well-being and development of the peoples inhabiting the Mandated Territories.

"Was the Palestine Mandate conceived for the well-being and development of the inhabitants of Palestine? The answer is found in the provisions of the Mandate itself. The Mandate sought the establishment in Palestine of a national home for another people, contrary to the rights and wishes of the Palestinians ... It required the Mandatory to place the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as would secure the establishment of a Jewish national home. It required the Mandatory to facilitate Jewish immigration into Palestine. It provided that a foreign body known as the Zionist Organization should be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in matters affecting the establishment of the Jewish national home. It is clear that, although the Mandates System was conceived in the interest of the inhabitants of the Mandated Territory, the Palestine Mandate was conceived in the interest of an alien people originating from outside Palestine, and ran counter to the basic concept of mandates. As Lord Islington observed when he opposed the inclusion of the Balfour Declaration in the Palestine Mandate: "The Palestine Mandate is a real distortion of the mandatory system".

domino.un.org

This part explains why they don't get along and its accurate. Bear in mind that these reports were drawn up in the 20's and 30's and they predicted todays current situation in the ME. Everyone knew what was going to happen before it happened.

On the new Arab hostility towards the Jews:

"... It is indeed, one of the most unhappy aspects of the present situation - this opening of a breach between Jewry and the Arab world. We believe that not in Palestine only but in all the Middle East the Arabs might profit from the capital and enterprise which the Jews are ready enough to provide; and we believe that in ordinary circumstances the various Arab Governments would be ready enough on their side to permit a measure of Jewish immigration under their own conditions and control. But the creation of the national home has been neither conditioned nor controlled by the Arabs of Palestine. It has been established directly against their will. And that hard fact has had its natural reaction on Arab minds elsewhere. The Jews were fully entitled to enter the door forced open for them into Palestine. They did it with the sanction and encouragement of the League of Nations and the United States of America. But by doing it they have closed the other doors of the Arab World against them. And in certain circumstances this antagonism might become dangerously aggressive." 101/

On the Arab-Jewish relationship:

"An irrepressible conflict has arisen between two national communities within the narrow bounds of one small country. About 1,000,000 Arabs are in strife, open or latent, with some 400,000 Jews. There is no common ground between them. The Arab community is predominantly Asian in character, the Jewish community predominantly European. They differ in religion and in language. Their cultural and social life, their ways of thought and conduct, are as incompatible as their national aspirations. These last are the greatest bar to peace."

You can go by Skippys definition but its inaccurate because he fails to mention that Israelis call the arabs: pigs, dogs, and beggars as well. Some of them even spit on Christian priests and pilgrims visiting jerusalem, throw their garbage on church steps, break church windows and commit arson on churches. He just musta forgot in his praise of them. Its not just from one side its both sides.
Skippy mentions his unsourced Quranic verses , but if you read that document it will show you modern day (Not from centuries ago) documented racial bias that was commited against the indigenous arabs in order to stifle their economy and gain property.


Pie





[edit on 14-7-2006 by ThePieMaN]

Maybe it is more a perception of legitimacy or illegitimacy of the state of Israel. The nation state of Israel is a very recent creation (1948). The ethnic and religious group of people called Jews have existed for thousands of years. I think some people can live with the people but not the State. Your source is somewhat selective in their descriptions as they would be. First some ancient history. The original patriarchs (founding fathers) of the Jewish people is as stated by your source Abraham and his son and grandson. However, Abraham was born in Chaldea a country in the upper Mesopotamia area that no longer exists but which was in what is modern day Iraq. He was the chieftan of the Amorites. With his family he started wandering the lands of what we now call the middle east. God apparently told Abraham that his decendents would live in a Promised Land the location unspecified at this time. They went to the city of Damascus and eventually to the land of Canaan (later to correspond to the land of Palestine and Israel). Later they went to Egypt. While in Egypt Sarah had an Egyptian slave called Hagar. Since Sarah was barren Abraham was permitted in accordance with the law of the time to sleep with Hagar to produce an heir. She gave birth to a boy called Ishmael. Sarah did eventually have a child 14 years later. Sarah and Abraham called their son Isaac. Now that she had her own son Sarah demanded that Ishmael and Hagar be cast out of the community and they were left to wander the desert. Ishmael is considered to be the Father of the Arabs. Abraham is also regarded as a prophet by the Koran. There was a Kingdom of Israel for a few hundred years during the times of David and Solomon. Before and after this time the Jewish people have wandered and been exiled. The last time was when the Romans expelled them after the Bar Kokhba revolt about 100 years after Jesus' death. The Jewish people lived in the surrounding lands and even travelled as far as India, China, Northern Africa, Europe especially central and eastern Europe. Some families returned to live in Jerusalem but very few. In the mean time other tribes who had always lived in the area such as the Philistines (Palestinians) continued to do so. Eventually the Romans left. Christianity grew then came Islam then the Crusades. More recently the Ottoman Empire. When they joined the losing side in WW 1 they lost their empire. It was mostly divided between Britain and France. From about the 1880's there had also been the development of political Zionism. This a response two two things. Firstly, a rise in anti-Semitism as expressed in the pogroms against some Jewish communities in Eastern Europe and the Dreyfus Affair in France. Also there was a general surge of all sorts of people seeking nation state status to break free of the yokes of the British, Ottoman, Spanish and Austro-Hungarian empires. The Zionist movement looked at several places to establish a Jewish state including Australia, Uganda, Patagonia but decided on Palestine. Land purchases had been taking place between rich Jewish interests who funded the zionist movement and the rich Ottoman land owners of Palestine who did not want to live there. During WW! zionists had played Germany (the Ottoaman's ally) and England against each other to get the best out come for themselves and that was the Balfour Declaration of 1917 which allowed for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Unfortunately Britain had also been giving the same assurances to the local Palestinians especially in the lead up to WW2 Britain was very keen to keep the Palestinians and Arabs on their side and not to support the Nazis or to supply petrol to them. After WW2 there was much sympathy and guilt over the murder of 6 million Jews. Palestinian land was given away by others to others. While the Jews were given a home many of the Palestinians were driven from theirs by terrorist tactics by some Jews. They have not been allowed to return home.

brian sceene said:
because one day israel decided they get all the land because their "god" said they could.
Basing foreign policy and political decisions on what a disembodied voiced was reported to say to a man is not good policy. Perhaps Abraham was told by this 'God' voice that they could have the Promised Land and perhaps they did live there for some time but does that give them rights to return to it at another time centuries later? If one was to use the same logic one could say that because the Romans were in Britain and France for some centuries then the Italians can return there again. However, the fact is that many Jews did come to Palestine. They have married and had families for several generations now. Removing them is not a solution either as they have no where to go either. Everyone will just have to learn to live together or die together. The present framework is unsustainable. There need to be changes so that all parties feel safe and in control of their lives. Some scenarios do not look promising but a positive future is possible also.

Brian Scene said:
The reason the united states and other non-arab countries support israel is because it is their path into the middle-east,

True. It is the old divide and conquer trick. Israel is a like a cukoo bird in the nest. I wouldn't say that the west is the slave of Israel just that they both have mutual interests in the arrangement.

Brian Scene said:
i respect the arab nations that support palestine also, since they are doing the right thing and not giving into israel and its western slaves.

Maybe your average working Arab does but the Arab ruling classes pretty much have the same interests as the West and Israel and are happy with the staus quo. They don't want radical changes maybe just a bit of an internal redistribution of the power. The Palestinians have been sold down the river plenty of times by their Arab 'brothers'

Brian Scene said:
Think of it as if one day every native american here in the states decided they want their land back, so with canadian and mexican help they invade, shove every non-native american into montana , and then expect sympathy?
You are describing the Palestinians or Israelis in this metaphor? I read Palestinians.

Brian Scene said: Hitler was taking a right step with his movement, but its up to us to finish the job....Israel is already rich, i mean more then half of our foriegn aid goes towards israel in compensation for the holocaust, i mean because we the american people are responsible for something that happened 70+ years ago, so now our tax money goes towards the jews..

Hitler was a sociopath. What he did was criminal on an almost unbelievable scale. Not just to Jews but to hundreds of millions others anyone the Nazi state considered deviant and it didn't take much to be considered deviant. MILLIONS died for no better reason than because they had genes that were unfashionable at the time. Jews do not rule the world. The ruling class rules the world. Most of whom happen to be white anglo saxon protestant males. Sure there are some Jews up there with the WASPS. Rich Jews are happy to exploit other Jews. Rich people are happy to exploit others period no matter their religion or ethnic background. Half of your foreign aid does not go to pay compensation for the holocaust. It goes to Israel to further US interests in the region. The same as the 'foreign aid' that goes to Arab countries. The US does not pay compensation to anyone. Just ask the Vietnamese, an Iraqi or a Native American for starters. The Gremans, Swiss and Austrians have paid some compensation to some Jews. An so they should and they should cough up the rest of it and stop dragging their heels. If I go to your place and kill your mother and children, have my friends move into your house, steal your valubles, lock you in the basement for years I will have to pay the price. Jail and compensation. It is called justice. Jews and Palestinians are owed it.