Thorns, Thickets, and Burnt Offerings for Sin

And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
(Mar 15:17)
And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
(Joh 19:2)
Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
(Joh 19:5)

On the recent subject in another thread, concerning the reason Yehoshua was given a crown of thorns on the day of his execution, it was mentioned, by someone (forgive me but I forget just exactly who it was) that it was pointing back to the day the blessing was given to Abraham on Mt. Moriah when he was willing to sacrifice Isaac, at God’s request. Since Abraham was faithful, and passed this testing with flying colors, God provided a ram for sacrifice instead of the boy.

But that isn’t the case, at all.

(Genesis 22:13) And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

The word ‘thicket’ is found in Strong’s as follows:

H5442
סבך
sebâk
seb-awk'
From H5440; a copse: - thick (-et).

H5440
סבך
sâbak
saw-bak'
A primitive root; to entwine: - fold together, wrap.

This word, H5442 I find in the following verses:
Genesis 22:13
Psalms 74:5
Isaiah 9:18
Isaiah 10:34
And it’s root, H5440, in the following:
Job 8:17
Nahum 1:10

Now, looking at the idea of ‘thorns’ (which usually involves ‘thistles,’ too—even in the NT parables of Yehoshua) I find these in the OT and the NT:
Genesis 3:18
Exodus 22:6
Numbers 33:55
Joshua 23:13,
Judges 2:3, 8:7, 16
2 Samuel 23:6
2 Chronicles 33:11
Job 5:5
Psalms 58:9, 118:12
Proverbs 15:19, 22:5, 24:31
Ecclesiastes 7:6
Song of Solomon 2:2
Isaiah 5:6, 7:19, 23, 24, 25, 9:18, 10:17, 27:4, 32:13, 33:12, 34:13
Jeremiah 4:3, 12:13
Ezekiel 2:6
Hosea 2:6, 9:6
Nahum 1:10
Matthew 7:16, 13:7, 22, 27:29
Mark 4:7, 18, 15:17,
Luke 6:44, 8:7, 14
John 19:2, 5
Hebrews 6:8

Since there are so many verses relating to this topic, I’ll only post the significant ones and list the rest; anyone truly interested can then look them up at their leisure.

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
(Gen 3:18)

That is where it starts—the first curse to Adam and Eve.

For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
(Isa 9:18)
They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.
(Psa 118:12)

Now, when sin offerings are made lawfully unto the LORD, in the OT, and are found to be acceptable, they are devoured by the LORD’s fire:

Genesis22:6-7;
Exodus29:14,18,25,41;30:20;
Leviticus1:9,13,17;2:2-3,9,10-11,14,16;3:3,5,9,11,14,16;5:12;6:9-10,12,17,30;7:5,25,30;8:21,28;9:24;10:12,15;16:27;22:22,27;23:8,13,18,25,27,36-37;24: 7;
Numbers15:3,10,13-14,25;18:9,17;28:2-3,6,8,13,19,24;29:6,13,36;
1Chronicles21:26;
2Chronicles7:1;
Malachi1:10;


It was the children of Israel who were warned, repeatedly, that their sins would lead to snares and thorns as just punishment from God.

But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
(Num 33:55)

Even Paul speaks of a thorn in his side as ‘satan,’ for the purpose of maintaining humility in his ministry, and also speaks often of the crucifixion of Christ being as a ‘stumbling block,’ which, in bible terms, is the same thing as a ‘snare.’

Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
(Jos 23:13)
But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands:
(2Sa 23:6)
Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them.
(Pro 22:5)
And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns.
(Isa 7:23)
And on all hills that shall be digged with the mattock, there shall not come thither the fear of briers and thorns: but it shall be for the sending forth of oxen, and for the treading of lesser cattle.
(Isa 7:25)
And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
(Isa 34:13)
They have sown wheat, but shall reap thorns: they have put themselves to pain, but shall not profit: and they shall be ashamed of your revenues because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
(Jer 12:13)
For, lo, they are gone because of destruction: Egypt shall gather them up, Memphis shall bury them: the pleasant places for their silver, nettles shall possess them: thorns shall be in their tabernacles.
(Hos 9:6)

And this verse seems to point right at the crucifixion:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(Heb 6:8)

Although it is still supported that the offering, to be accepted as payment for sins must be burned:

And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
(Isa 10:17)

If Christ was resurrected from the grave as a living and fleshly whole man, then how could His death have served for atonement for either the Jews or today’s Christians?

And if Christ was accepted as atonement, then do we assume God changed his law on sacrifice and didn’t require this one to be done as all others before had been done?

And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;(Isa 10:17)

It would seem, from the verse above, that nothing was altered for this final sacrifice on our behalf.

This one, below, also helps explain, maybe, why the Jews did not recognize the gift of their atonement:

For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
(Jer 4:3)

This one sure seems to be pointing at the humiliation in store for Christ at the hands of his own people:

And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
(Eze 2:6)

Finally, we have another question in this verse, written of as being that which Christ, himself, said:

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(Luk 8:14)

All sacrifices, regardless of their purpose and use, had to be ‘without blemish’ but that means without physical defect. We don’t have any reason to assume it means the animal was ‘without sin,’ either, since animals don’t fall under the laws of sin. And in all things, the OT was a shadow of the NT fulfillment.

So, this seems to be saying something in regard to perfection--and it's not in favor of what is popularly believed, that Christ's teachings and/or sacrifice make us perfect.

I'm not saying that, myself--I'm leaving it open. I'm just pointing out the multiple incongruencies that cause there to be more questions raised than answered, when it is examined thoroughly and without prejudice. And of course, I'm not questioning the bible's worth for instruction, either--as should be known by most according to my usual stand upon the bible rather than against it as my source of authority.

But what does it all mean?

that you like to research and study...and maybe you have laid-down with Jesus and were nailed to the Cross ...but thats my first view to your question of...

But what does it all mean?

Could you be so kind as to put a link or links to some of these referance books that you are quoting from...[thanks Ms Hathaway]

I've seen it said in the www.jewishpress.com... that Mose's wasn't ordered to sacifice Animals but was told how to do it, if the people insisted on doing it ...maybe you might understand how wild/deep those cats at the JP can get [dont subscibe to it, anymore, did for over 20yrs]...they also let the ones who want Marriage between man and woman at 12yrs of age+ plus a day to air their views...[the view is that sure its ok but it would raise such a storm with the 'politicians'] that the 'pharisee' types win out with their unjust/unfair laws...but the valid view of 12yrs+a day ones are still saying they want to be able marry [12yrs+a day is into the 13th year]...

Holy smoke there, Amos...done run off in another direction...is not the 'Babylonian Harlot' also in Purple?...mmmmmmmmmmmmm wonder if there is a connection?...with the unjust laws...and the 'pricks' of the Crown of Thorns?...

Love n luck n good sex/emotions/passions ! ave maria ! saturday is always Marys day.............Infinity

Holy Saintly Prayerful Smoke, Batman--could it be that catwoman, no I mean the whore of Babylon--would actually be worthy of pardon in the eyes of our Most High God?

hmmmmmm..

As far as reference books? The KJV Canon is my only reference, aided by a Strong's Concordance.

of course and His Majesty Jesus Will even Ball her from the Holy Cross as He Does her Right as His Excellancy is just the Best in His Bride Mary !...just as He moved up the Show at the wedding feast at Mother Marys request, so Will He today if we hear His Voice and get 'our' acts TO-GET-HER !

Lolove n luck n good/grand sex/emotions/passion ! Ave Maria ! Her Royal Highness, the Queen-of-LOVE....................Infinity

You are hilarious~!

Of course more will be offended than amused, but I am ROFLMAO! And mi amor on high, as well


--a sense of humor is an extremely divine quality. The via dolorosa would be infernally more unbearable than sheol without the grace of mirth!

for ur cheerful deep remarks and I don't intend to offend anyone and do hope more will understand with joy, my views, of His Majesty Jesus, the Divine Playwright and His being the Grandest Charactor in the Show, His Sense of Humor Being as deep as it is High...

A little 'bite' from Alan Watt www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com...

The response of your Christian friends and relatives is the
standard result of a lifetime of mind control. Huxley himself in
Brave New World Revisited admits that the person under mind
control is totally oblivious of the fact. The ancient to modern
techniques for domination of a few over the many are based on
the one main formula. Number one, you draw up a plan that
may take centuries in the unfolding, number two you give a
religion with the plan laid down as prophecy and eventually
after the fist generation it is a religion that no one questions as
being the word of God. When they see these things coming to
pass they naturally refer to their guiding book and say it is
God's will. The purpose of psychological warfare is to conquer
a people so that they never resist your domination. New Agers
have been programmed the same way into believing that
nothing is real anyway, everything's an illusion so don't be
concerned with the aerial spraying, etc. Christians believe that
to alter the evil which is coming would be to fight God himself,
since it's God's plan. This is the typical impasse which
psychological warfare programming takes succumbed
individuals thus rendering their survival instincts non-
functional

In all
experience I have gained, I've found it is impossible to wake up
someone who hasn't taken the first step of questioning by
themselves. Only then can you very gradually feed little pieces
of information, too much at once will make them close down. I
generally advise aware-ones who live amongst "the dead" to try
and live inside their head and to try and find other awake ones
elsewhere. We are up against an ancient and well studied
system of mass human behavior control and for every (and
rare) sincere promulgator of truth the controllers have a
hundred well-backed superstars to mislead the people.

As the 'hippies' would say, Alan, is 'a trip' but the Dude/Doctor is a 'genius'/'master' on conspiracy facts and information ...don't intend to get off Thread but thought that tucking in the 'mind-control' thing is important if we are looking at what we believe or reseaching what has been feed to us by the 'system' !...

Ohhh 'Ms Hathaway' could you send or post 'live links' to the books that you mentioned and a good simple dictonary, thanks 'Penelope' ! [ as in 'penny-the-pits-stop-princess...seems as you have spent much time looking around the 'pits', lol/sis][so have I, as 'peter prick']...till I smelt 'rita rose' and kissed the 'Thorn' in His Majesty's Head and have been in de-programing by the Holy Spirit of my silly ways.....

Ohhh well....4 Purple Mountains Majesty above the 'fruited' plains...from the mind-control 'program' that us 'yanks' are put through...

Ok, Penelope aka 'the VD Madonna' [one of her many persona's]...Lolove n luck n good sex/emotions/passion....ave maria !...aint no moutain high, aint no-valley low, going keep you from me !...just love-it...........Infinity

Originally posted by georgejohn
...and I don't intend to offend anyone and do hope more will understand with joy, my views, of His Majesty Jesus, the Divine Playwright and His being the Grandest Charactor in the Show, His Sense of Humor Being as deep as it is High...

No doubt!! I hope and pray and ache and pray....but soon enough I guess it will have to be in its due time.

The response of your Christian friends and relatives is the standard result of a lifetime of mind control. Huxley himself in Brave New World Revisited admits that the person under mind control is totally oblivious of the fact.

And how!!! That's the ultimate catch-22, I'm sure. I think fasting from the boob tube is a great effort toward scale-removal. I haven't watched it (except very occasionally Nat'l Geo or Discovery) in something like almost 15 years. It is very insidious...and we do it to ourselves.

The purpose of psychological warfare is to conquer a people so that they never resist your domination.

The opposite of the MASTER plan!! The Law of Liberty is God's plan--liberty is ruled by love and integrity (ultimate personal accountability). God is responsible, but man is accountable. I've said that here before. No one believes me--but the way it is--God being accountable yet man somehow responsible (yet forbidden both common sense and empathy) is the fast lane to disaster!

Christians believe that to alter the evil which is coming would be to fight God himself, since it's God's plan.

Yet it is not God doing the 'evil'--or man--it's old split-foot the goat-head... :shk: I can't understand fealty to a God bent on unfair destruction after 6000 years of carrying us everyday to kindergarten...or see how anyone would think this is all there is? God is surely of a magnitude that would make an atom bomb look like a pen-light...

In all experience I have gained, I've found it is impossible to wake up someone who hasn't taken the first step of questioning by themselves.

This is true.

I generally advise aware-ones who live amongst "the dead" to try and live inside their head and to try and find other awake ones elsewhere.

This might make sense, to most--but for me it doesn't work. What I have received, on account of Grace and faith not my own--how can I just be content to sit back and commune with others of 'like mind?' Not that I've met many, but you know. To me, that is not love and it is bad 'karma.' If I have to shock people, make them mad, dog them until they get tired enough of me to check it out for themselves (ever happened? I'm thinking not--I hope it has, but...), well I WILL. Not because I want them to see things my way--I just want them to question for themselves and then form their own ideas--most people think they are of their own mind, but their just going with the current theology. And if they don't want to wake up, at least someone tried, because if we just sit around, it's certain doom and death.

God never fought Israel's battles for them! He led them to battle, delivered the enemy into their hand (providing no one had hid any 'accursed things' under their tents!) but the battle was won by them--God didn't want glory for Himself, but for them! And He doesn't change! We can't on the couch and evangelize dry soteriology in hopes that 2 more will be revived instead of just 1 more.

We are up against an ancient and well studied system of mass human behavior control and for every (and rare) sincere promulgator of truth the controllers have a hundred well-backed superstars to mislead the people.

Yes, but all it takes is the littlest little spark to start a fire smoldering in the depths...and 2000 years, too, of course! Then suddenly....
whhhooooossshhhmmmpt!

Fire in the hole! Blazing inferno, blazing away....

Ohhh 'Ms Hathaway' could you send or post 'live links' to the books that you mentioned and a good simple dictonary, thanks 'Penelope' !

Well, Mr Drysdale
try this: E-sword
It is a free download, totally safe, and just the basic program (click on the blue box on the right side, second one down, that says 'download e-sword now') will give you access to the KJV with Strong's numbers--which, when you mouse over the word in question's little superscripted reference number, will give you a little pop up tooltip providing the Hebrew or Greek meaning of the word, according to Strong's Concordance. It's an awesome eye opener and much easier than the alternative (for me, lugging around a book 5 times bigger than the actual canon!). If you get hung up, just U2U me and I'll help you!

Alternatively, you can also go to Blue Letter Bible or Online Parallel Bible if you don't want to download. The latter one is sometimes tedious to navigate through, IMO.

[ as in 'penny-the-pits-stop-princess...seems as you have spent much time looking around the 'pits', lol/sis][so have I, as 'peter prick']...till I smelt 'rita rose' and kissed the 'Thorn' in His Majesty's Head and have been in de-programing by the Holy Spirit of my silly ways.....

You are too much!

[edit on 7/2/2006 by queenannie38]

the land of 'milk n honey'...was going make a new Thread but think her highness queenannie38 might allow me the 'thrill' of our 'wild' ride into the Truth as 'we' view it [from the 3D level]...and we do know how the 'Whisper' comes rushing on you...trying put it into a formula of 'words' gets tough at times.........

quote: I generally advise aware-ones who live amongst "the dead" to try and live inside their head and to try and find other awake ones elsewhere.

This might make sense, to most--but for me it doesn't work. What I have received, on account of Grace and faith not my own--how can I just be content to sit back and commune with others of 'like mind?' Not that I've met many, but you know. To me, that is not love and it is bad 'karma.' If I have to shock people, make them mad, dog them until they get tired enough of me to check it out for themselves (ever happened? I'm thinking not--I hope it has, but...), well I WILL. Not because I want them to see things my way--I just want them to question for themselves and then form their own ideas--most people think they are of their own mind, but their just going with the current theology. And if they don't want to wake up, at least someone tried, because if we just sit around, it's certain doom and death.

[quoteI've found it is impossible to wake up
someone who hasn't taken the first step of questioning by
themselves. Only then can you very gradually feed little pieces
of information, too much at once will make them close down.]

I'm like you Annie but have suffered many 'things' and still are for my actions...not gonna have anyone tell me in this world or the next that I didn't try to share with 'em' was my 'motto' but as time moved on I try to keep the 'bible/slut/bully/satan/peter in me [n us all, as well as Peter][will try to get to Peter and his wonderful grace, that His Highness gave him b4 He called him satan, as we have been told in the 'book'] under tight control but u can see, I always, dont keep the 'dude' in 'compassion'.....ahhhhhhhhhhh, the, gift of 'fire n brimestone' is like a good 'bitch' [my cannie friends in the 'spirit world' will love that] doing it at the right time to bear 'fruit' [the Madonna Mary is a 'trip', the Mother of all creation, use ur mind n see her] [ n when she calls me/george a 'bitch', hope u can see one of her reasons, lol, yeah, I said it, lol ]...wanted to touch on the 'fairies', 'elves' etc.....Hey, those. 'critters got just as much right to be here as us 'humans' and I sort of think the 'book' says we are to be their helpers on their 'journey' in this 3D n more world [he who be the greatest must be the servant, right-on Mary, do your ur 'thing' Mom ] and as mother says, who cares if they call us 'wiccans' lets groove it to-get-her and groove it as goddesses n gods n realize as my good buddie St francis-of-ASSisi says some of ur best friends in the spirit world were 'insects' in 3D as well as the others and we heard it said that 'crazy' Francis... that Francis used to preach to the Birds n Wolves n more...and his good buddie Anthony used to go n preach to the Fishes when people wouldn't listen to him [hint, Penelope ] and the Fishes/Birds/Wolves would acknowledge these men !...wild stuff 4sure...

As DoraAnnie has said she has dug the 'Jesuits' at Fordham [a few miles from my 'pad'/quarters], they got all the info there [as well as others elsewhere, it can be found on our 'Android' in-the-womb, the internet, lets cheer our little baby on n not let it be 'aborted' in the 'womb']...wanna talk on the 'Torn'of the absolute-way-of looking at things...even daddy/brother Francis didn't recognize the 'community' he founded before he died and was quite taken back by it, it is said but JC told don't worry 'bro', I'll give u brothers/sisters/mothers/daddies to groove with till the end of time on Earth...so reguardless of where some FrancisCANs [couldn't resist that] are at or the Jesuits or others... next page...

many 'treasures' to be found in the 'franciscans'...'jesuits' [dont call me a 'catholic pimp', trying not to be the 'Babylonian' hoes chump] as well as the 'knights templar', 'free masons', 'khazar wanna be 'jews' ', etc... well old little LeRoy gotta stop rappin/bitchin, tired, bout our 'jones' for now n take some rest-in-the flesh and the worse 'jones' might be gambling...but thats another subject [u gotta be a idiot not to take a chance on the big lottos n u know , guess I cant say that]...

Thanks ur highness queenannie38 for having us aboard ur Thread.....Lolove n luck 2all n good sex/emotions/passion ! ...Ave Maria ! 'get down'...Infinity

[wanted to get into the GOD-of-Love n 'silly' Aaron n making the 'silly' 'golden calf' rather then blessing the people as they got-down with the GOD-of-LOVE as the early community/family of JMJ did, as brother Paul said so clearly, just dont do ur mother-in-law [in-the-flesh]...u know, they didnt have the audio/video stuff that is here 'today', so there were big get-down feasts] more to come on that maybe...

TextBlesSINGs upon Blessings.....Infinity

to the 'great babylonian harlot' aka as 'friends of billy-goat' with hillary is on a 'mission'... looking forward to her highness to return... and help pull the pricks/thorns out of JC'c Head....

Lolove n luck n good emotions/passion/humor/health/etc... Ave Maria !

Looking forward to the return of queenannie38 as she comes with Her Majesty Maria ! Hillary n friends are hanging from her 'judas-rope' at 55 west 125th street aka dr martin luther king blvd in Harlem, N.Y.C.... omg !... Infinity

[gee that adds up to 18 ! 5+5+1+2+5=18. golly ] lol