3000-year-old "pyramid" discovered in NE China

Chinese archaeologists have discovered a group of ancient tombs shaped like pyramids, dating back at least 3,000 years, in Jiaohe City of northeast China's Jilin Province. The tombs, covering an area of 500,000 square meters (1,000 meters long and 500 meters wide), were found after water erosion exposed part of a mountain, revealing two of the tombs. Six smaller tombs had eroded away leaving no indications of their original scale and appearance, but the biggest tomb, located on the south side of the mountain, could clearly be discerned as a pyramid shape with three layers from bottom to top. The pyramid's square bottom is about 50 meters long and 30 meters wide, about the size of a basketball court, with an oval platform on the top, about 15 meters long and 10 meters wide. The tomb was made of stone and earth dug out from the hill. A stone coffin, surrounded by four scree boards and covered by a granite top, was placed on the top platform.

Link to article

Another 'pyramid' found, although it probably isnt in the same category as the bosnia one, but Im sure that many more are going to be found, perhaps even under water. Didnt Graham Hancock find some amazing ruins off the coast of India? Or was that Japan? Anyways, interesting how the pyramid shape continues to be used in Ancient cultures. I guess the harmony presented by the shape or something more? I like how in the movie Stargate, the pyramid was actually a landing platform for a gigantic spaceship. I guess it is too much of a romantic idea that all these pyramids from Egypt to South America are connected somehow to a global ancient ancient civilization, perhaps like Atlantis.

edited to add 'ex' tags
please review this link

[edit on 23-6-2006 by masqua]

Its actually surprisingly easy to see why the pyramid was selected as the shape for tombs all across the world, its all got to do with the funamental aspects of the natural world and the integration of its various aspects into one manifestation.

You can unlock these mysterious secrets in a profound way.

First, go out into the world, and find a patch of ground where the grass doth not grow, the soil should be loose and loamy and have not roots pentetrating into it.

Gather up the soil and hold it in your hands. Permit the grains to sift through your fingers and fall about a point below you. Do this many times, allowing the soil of the earth to grow.

Now look down. What do you have?


Its called a "Mound of Dirt".

Thats why there are pyramids everywhere. ESPECIALLY in cases like this where they are....mounds of dirt.

You know, I am getting really tired of reading the incessant skepticism, merely for the sake of being a skeptic, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the issue of pyramids.

A pile of dirt does not spontaneously form a square base. A pile of dirt does not end up with geometry that is measurable within a certain degree of accuracy. A pile of dirt is not deliberate construction for the purposes of deity worship or burial of the venerated.

Please stop taking a sledge hammer to these discoveries, sit down, and wait for the people actually doing the research to provide an initial appraisal.

Would it kill you to admit the possibility that these structures are legitimate, similarly constructed, and worthy of more than the scorn and ridicule by people who have not made such a construct themselves....and by people who aren't there themselves studying it.

This is brand new information. There is no grounds yet for wholesale attack on its validity.

Nygdan, i like your description but I have to agree with newtron25.

Originally posted by newtron25

You know, I am getting really tired of reading the incessant skepticism, merely for the sake of being a skeptic,

I am skeptical for the sake of being able to truly appreciate these sorts of wonderous discoveries when they really do come along.

A pile of dirt is not deliberate construction for the purposes of deity worship or burial of the venerated.

Please stop taking a sledge hammer to these discoveries, sit down, and wait for the people actually doing the research to provide an initial appraisal.

?
I am not disputing that these chinese ones exist.

In the egyptian religion, the world was first a formless void, a great sea. Then the ancient god swam up to the surface, and slapped some mud down. Then more mud and more, until, eventually, there was a mound. The formation of this mound was the creation of the universe itself, the formation of the world. The world is a mound. This myth also exists in other religions, sometimes its a fish, sometimes its a bird or old coyote or the fox, who piles up the mud from the pre-existant sea, and creates the world. The pyramid, it is an attempt to recapitulate this initial creation, this 'divine' existence. That is why the pyramid, whether its an egyptian type, a peruvian type, a ziggurat, or a khurgan even, are associated with death (ie, entrance into the supreme cosmos and the afterlife, 'real' or permanent 'formation) or the ritual worship of religion.

Even for the egyptians, the Pyramid started as a Mastaba, and then a stack of mastabas, before it was a pyramid.

That is why I mention that dirt forms into mounds, because, it does actually make these structures, and it is also of religious sigificance to the builders. Not as an attempt to say 'there is not pyramid here', and I have no doubt that there are many 'hills' out there today that are temples and tombs that were buried a long time ago.

Originally posted by Nygdan
loamy

You called?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Its actually surprisingly easy to see why the pyramid was selected as the shape for tombs all across the world...Its called a "Mound of Dirt".

Interesting explanation.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Not as an attempt to say 'there is not pyramid here', and I have no doubt that there are many 'hills' out there today that are temples and tombs that were buried a long time ago.

THEN what is your attempt? To cast further doubt on what legitimate scientists are attempting to uncover about their cultures and their history? The thought that someone would want to keep a people away from the truth about where they have been and what they once were is reprehensible and short sighted.

U2U sent check your inbox

[edit on 23-6-2006 by masqua]

edited for big quote

please read this link.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by masqua]

haha, loam thats funny.

Originally posted by newtron25

You know, I am getting really tired of reading the incessant skepticism, merely for the sake of being a skeptic, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the issue of pyramids.

Really? Should we all now begin to list the multitude of things that we are tired of?

Originally posted by newtron25A pile of dirt does not spontaneously form a square base. A pile of dirt does not end up with geometry that is measurable within a certain degree of accuracy...

Actually, a pile of dirt does precisely this. A pile of dirt, deposited in the manner prescribed by Nygdan, will form a pyramidal structure with a conic section as it's base. Circular, parabolic, hyperbolic or elliptical, depending on how the wind is blowing and how steady your hand is. The sides will slope at exactly the "angle of repose" for the particular material you use.

Originally posted by newtron25Would it kill you to admit the possibility that these structures are legitimate, similarly constructed, and worthy of more than the scorn and ridicule by people who have not made such a construct themselves....and by people who aren't there themselves studying it.

This is brand new information. There is no grounds yet for wholesale attack on its validity.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, you should realize that the less dense among us recognize that Nygdan in no way attacked the validity of the find. Nygdan's response concerned the following statements from eoyn:

Anyways, interesting how the pyramid shape continues to be used in Ancient cultures. I guess the harmony presented by the shape or something more?

Lastly, these "pyramids" in China can hardly be called pyramids in the sense of the Egyptian monuments. From your source:

The pyramid's square bottom is about 50 meters long and 30 meters wide, about the size of a basketball court, with an oval platform on the top, about 15 meters long and 10 meters wide. The tomb was made of stone and earth dug out from the hill.

A stone coffin, surrounded by four scree boards and covered by a granite top, was placed on the top platform.

Starts out rectangular at the bottom to make an oval at the top. This is a "pyramid" in name only, and is similar to Nygdan's pile of dirt, with a few stylized touches thrown in.

Harte

Again, the far more ardent and stalwart contributors have managed to focus down again to the minutae of piling dirt to explain what clearly is a) unexplainable, b) unclassifiable, c) out of the norm, or d) not all that interesting anyway. I get the impression with all this explaining away of these tombs and such that its really no big deal to the likes of Harte and Nygdan.

I pity your loss of imagination and inspiration that the mere discovery of these objects elicit. It must be a real awful feeling to find yourself looking forward to the third or fourth cup of coffee of the day just to keep going.

I will state this once more: this is clearly an important find. If it is a pyramid, great. If is is not, how is it like a pyramid? How is it like a pile of conical (NOT pyramidal) dirt? How is it like a Ray's Pizzeria, for crying out loud??? How does this have anything to do with who made them and how does that link, rather than isolate, the different groups of people who actually built them from continent to continent?

That seems more interesting than reducing what they are to nothing more than what you or I could do if we let soil fall from our hands into a pretty mound.

Don't you agree?

P.S. As far as listing what things we are REALLY tired of, you should feel free to start a thread of your very own.

Originally posted by newtron25
THEN what is your attempt?

To discuss, what else? What is your attempt? I find the discovery interesting, i was adding my thoughts to the discussion.

I get the impression with all this explaining away of these tombs

I really don't understand why you think I am trying to explain away these tombs. I am not.

I really don't think that we need to drag this thread, which is about these structures discovered in China, anymore off topic.

THis is where in china in general the city Jilin is
www.edepot.com...

Interesting to see that the site is so far north, for whatever the reason, I was thinking it was in the center of the country.

The wikipedia page has lots of links to the cultures and history of the area, apparently the name originally stems from the old manchu.
en.wikipedia.org...

I couldn't find much on the " Xituanshan" Culture, can anyone else? It looks like the state is very close to Korea, and the bronze age korean culture is the " Gojoseon".

This wiki article notes that the bronze technology in korea 'seems' to have come over from liaoning, our Jilin here is in between Liaoning and Korea. BUT the article also seems to indicate that this didn't happen until 1,000 BC.


Of import, it notes the Dolmen type tombs start showing up around 900 BC (but again, this is in Korea proper), so perhaps this discovery will overturn that, if its truly from 3,000 BC.

Here are a few random thoughts - peoples of this area (China/Korea) at this time may or may not have been technologically advanced enough to be linked to migration to other continents?

I'm really grasping at how the presence of a similar construction of tomb/religious center could provide clues to other cultures like the Egyptians and the Inca. Were trade routes absent? Were they prevalent? How isolated was the culture? What significance do these pyramidoidal "things" have to the Bronze Age people?

Nygdan, thank you for bringing it back to 'real'. I have heat dissipation issues sometimes...

Much appreciated facts and references.

Newtron

China does, indeed, have pyramids -- some as old as 4500 years old. However, they're very different in construction than the other pyramids -- mostly structures of dirt:
www.crystalinks.com...

www.trilobia.com...

They are tombs, and are closely linked (by artifacts) to certain dynasties. The most famous ones are shown in the link just above; the Xi'an dynasty.

A fairly interesting page on them:
www.philipcoppens.com...

In any case, they really were designed as tombs, really were earthworks (not unusual; there's lots of cases of ancient earthworks (the giant snake strucure in America, for instance.) Some have been looted, but many yielded up archaeological treasures and some of these are housed in museums next to the pyramids.

The association here is of the pyramid with mountains and heaven. They aren't linked to the Egyptian ones (too different).

The problem seems to be that any tomb with a top that's narrower than the base tends nowadays to get described as a pyramid. And then other folk assume that all cultures that built these pyramids must have been somehow connected. Which is a bit like saying that all cultures that built bridges must be connected ......

Here's a good site for those interested in Oriental 'pyramid' tombs and related structures:

myhome.shinbiro.com...

First, go out into the world, and find a patch of ground where the grass doth not grow, the soil should be loose and loamy and have not roots pentetrating into it.

Gather up the soil and hold it in your hands. Permit the grains to sift through your fingers and fall about a point below you. Do this many times, allowing the soil of the earth to grow.

Now look down. What do you have?


Its called a "Mound of Dirt".

Thats why there are pyramids everywhere. ESPECIALLY in cases like this where they are....mounds of dirt


Gosh, you mean there really were giants on the eart in those days!!!.

Feel free to rip me apart on this one, but maybe all these pyramids around the world were modeled after the Tower of Babel. The story goes, people built the tower (which was most likely a ziggurat/pyramid shape, and according to Ussher's timeline would have been 2242 BC) , God came, interrupted construction, and scrambled their languages and scattered them over the whole earth.

The result of that would be several small clusters of people all over the world who had no idea where they were. Having just been frustrated from building a pyramid, what would be their next course of action shortly after getting there? I mean, after getting food and shelter sorted out, they'd have wanted to build permanent structures and get rid of that feeling of being lost in the middle of nowhere--why not have another go at a pyramid and maybe they'd actually complete it that time?

Well, I don't think this idea is any more out there than aliens building them, anyway.

Oh man how I would of loved to be alive back then ....instead of now.

Cool News, thanks for the "headsup"

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by newtron25

You know, I am getting really tired of reading the incessant skepticism, merely for the sake of being a skeptic,

I am skeptical for the sake of being able to truly appreciate these sorts of wonderous discoveries when they really do come along.

A pile of dirt is not deliberate construction for the purposes of deity worship or burial of the venerated.

Please stop taking a sledge hammer to these discoveries, sit down, and wait for the people actually doing the research to provide an initial appraisal.

?
I am not disputing that these chinese ones exist.

In the egyptian religion, the world was first a formless void, a great sea. Then the ancient god swam up to the surface, and slapped some mud down. Then more mud and more, until, eventually, there was a mound. The formation of this mound was the creation of the universe itself, the formation of the world. The world is a mound. This myth also exists in other religions, sometimes its a fish, sometimes its a bird or old coyote or the fox, who piles up the mud from the pre-existant sea, and creates the world. The pyramid, it is an attempt to recapitulate this initial creation, this 'divine' existence. That is why the pyramid, whether its an egyptian type, a peruvian type, a ziggurat, or a khurgan even, are associated with death (ie, entrance into the supreme cosmos and the afterlife, 'real' or permanent 'formation) or the ritual worship of religion.

Even for the egyptians, the Pyramid started as a Mastaba, and then a stack of mastabas, before it was a pyramid.

That is why I mention that dirt forms into mounds, because, it does actually make these structures, and it is also of religious sigificance to the builders. Not as an attempt to say 'there is not pyramid here', and I have no doubt that there are many 'hills' out there today that are temples and tombs that were buried a long time ago.

However, Mastaba where actaully used as places of worship, business, and housing. So far there is no real evidence that the Egyptian pyramids were used for anything. None of them were tombs, none of them have writings in them...

Every body here on this thread is arguing over something that has been proven.

They are called "Tells" and they receive and relate to the relative "LAy of the LAnd" that is "Abnormal" in geographical context.

www.utexas.edu...

After all this discussion, has anyone posted a link to pictures of the tomb in question? I checked the Xinhua News article and the Wikipedia links, but I didn't see anything like what was described.