My Axis is WAY More Evil than Your Axis!

Generally speaking, I don't think violence gets enough respect as one of the most historically successful agents in resolving international conflicts, however I have observed something recently that may hint at a problem with the war on terror.

People are competing for the wrath of the US! I'm reminded a bit of "The Mouse That Roared" (a movie where an impovrished nation decides to declare war on America so that they can lose and be rebuilt).

Iran is leading the pack at the moment, probably because its geographic position makes it a threat to oil supplies and to continental Europe.

North Korea is an impressive close second; it's just that they aren't doing a good enough job of publicizing the human cost of their evil.

Saudi Arabia mostly sits in the background; they've got a refined, subtly threatening sort of "James Bond Villain" evil about them. They recently suggested that an attack on Iran could triple the price of oil.


Forgive me if I sound a bit like your kindgergarten teacher (the answer is just this elementary), but why not just ignore them?

I don't mean stick our head in the sand and let it happen, don't get me wrong. I'm just curious why we obsess over it? We have a crisis fetish here in America. I can't find any other way to see it. We live for a good emergency; it's like TV with better special effects and a more realistic plot!


Here's my idea:
1. Quietly resolve never to sit down at the table with North Korea- bilateral or otherwise. They've got nothing we want, they pose no legitimate threat to anything we care about, unless you buy into the gross oversimplification that they are crazy and may launch for no reason at all. Just let them wallow in squallor for as long as they see fit, and if by some miracle they ever decide that we aren't coming for them and decide to cut their military budget and fund something resembling good government, send them a fruit basket and a note saying welcome to the neighborhood.

2. Stop offering stuff to Iran. We tried it. It was the right thing to do at the time. They've been very clear that they aren't interested. So give them enough rope to hang themselves with. Quietly give the neighborhood what they need in terms of theater missile defenses to stay safe, then wait for Iran to do something wrong. If they threaten somebody else with nukes, or God forbid use them, there'll be no blaming whoever kicks their teeth in for it; preferably Israel since they are the ones with the most riding on this, but I wouldn't flip if we did it either.

3. Forget the Saudis. Americans shouldn't be mad at the oil producers, they should be mad at those who are keeping us from having other alternatives. Our government's idea of reducing our dependence on oil is to drill for our own oil. That doesn't fix the fundemental problem; infact it doesn't fix ANY problems, because we all know that if the world price is high, the companies pulling the oil out of Alaska have to turn a profit, and they'll charge us the same high price, or export to somebody else who's paying that high price.


I see a lot of one-up-manship going on among the nations that want us to be afraid of them lately and I don't see why we're making a big production out of half-way fighting them when we clearly aren't serious about really knocking the snot out of them. We're that guy who just sits around making mean faces, chasing people just a few steps then stopping, but never actually hitting the people who mess with him, and people keep messing with him because they get a rise out of him and never actually end up paying the piper.


I've got an Axis of Evil for you guys, and my Axis is WAY more sinister than yours. American Government, The Global Economy, and the UN. They made up the other Axis to keep you distracted.

How could you forget Venezuela!?
Shame on you! You're making Chavez mad!

You're right though, we should do to Iran and NK what we're doing to Chavez. They keep talking a bunch of mess, we should just snicker and ignore them....



I guess I should add the real axis of evil:
1. Not having the Saudis REALLY deal with the terrorists in their country
2. Not having Pakistan REALLY deal with the terrorists in their country
3. NK - I think the gov there is just a tad more crazier than the gov in Iran

[edit on 20-6-2006 by ThatsJustWeird]

1 and 2 on your list are exactly why I think my Axis is so evil. They are the overseers of lesser evil, as long as those lesser thugs remember to render unto Caesar.

3 I'm less sure about. The North Koreans are about as crazy as my 9 month old nephew. He cries and screams and knocks stuff over when he wants attention, but if you walk out of the room, he stops.
I've seen it- he was carrying on, I walked into the kitchen, he stopped. I peeked in, he saw me, and he started again.

Whenever North Korea starts screaming we hurry to change their diaper before they throw their juice cup on our new rug. I say put some plastic over the dang rug and let North Korea have its fit. They'll grow out of it that way. At some point you have to stop listening to screaming kids, because there's nothing more annoying than a screaming 16 year old. May as well teach Kim a lesson before he's too old to be spanked.

Vagabond, I gotta love everything you said. But like Thatsjust wierd said "don't forget venezuala" Can't have the little pimp in south america mad. But I agree with everything and wish it were only that simple.

It is almost that simple, you just have to translate it into complex policy.

Granted that protecting the rug is more difficult when the juice cup in question contains a fission warhead, but the principle is pretty much the same.

After the utter defeat in Iraq, I don't think that United States will be taking on anyone else for a long while. In Washington, the Senators are grilling Bush administration, calling the Iraq invasion, the worst strategic mistake US ever made. They say Iraq has turned out to be far worse than Vietnam. Insurgents have not been defeated. US soldiers have become the hunted. They are trapped in Iraq. Senator Murtha is calling for immediate withdrawal.

Even Afghanistan is back in nightmare catagory. Last 5 years US has failed in its military campaigns. Both Kabul and Baghdad are out of US control. US troops are scared of going out out their bases. Even the President's visits are in fear. He cannot proudly fly into Afghanistan or Iraq. He has to sneak in by night and land in fear of being shot down by rebels. This is complete humiliation of the US. It might be painful to admit but the truth is that US policy of aggression has failed miserably. US is losing its allies. Italy is pulling out. Japan is already gone. Spain deserted Iraq long in first year. Other nations have left Bush. Only Britain remains committed. It also is thinking of leaving by March 2007. America lies beaten in disgrace. After the total disaster in these two countries the terrorists may have been embolden. US errors in Afghanistan and Iraq has given terrorists strength and confidence. Policy writers in Washington need to be sacked.


[edit on 21-6-2006 by mr conspiracy]

Don't see why Venezuelas a problem, democratic country and all.

But beyond that you cant fault the Vagabond's reasoning. The US really doesnt need to put so much effort into the worlds supposed crisis.

However for them to change the mindset of the last sixty years has to be reset, US foriegn policy revolved around meddling with nations to prevent Soviet influence. Without a USSR policy is now simply to meddle because its all the US can do.

Perhaps a product of being the sole superpower and the urge to be everywhere at once, but still something the US can afford to change. But then again there is always the idea of distracting the domestic population with foriegn affairs...

I know this was a joke post but I'll play along anyway....

Originally posted by mr conspiracy
After the utter defeat in Iraq, I don't think that United States will be taking on anyone else for a long while.

lmao!
Iraq was one of the most decisive military victories ANY army has seen in YEARS (if you exclude the first Gulf War, then you can extend that to DECADES)

They say Iraq has turned out to be far worse than Vietnam.

Says the kid who hasn't read a history book....ever?

Insurgents have not been defeated.

That has nothing to do with the miliary (there's like a couple hundred insurgents dead for every one allied personnel), and everything to do with the mindset of those people.

Senator Murtha is calling for immediate withdrawal.

Oh no! Not Senator Murtha!
lol

Even Afghanistan is back in nightmare catagory.

This is even more of a joke.
You don't get out of your basement much do you?

Last 5 years US has failed in its military campaigns.

Got any examples??

Both Kabul and Baghdad are out of US control.

Well, Kabul is under Afghan control and Baghdad under Iraqi control so...yeah.
That's a good thing....

US troops are scared of going out out their bases.

And you know this because.....

Even the President's visits are in fear. He cannot proudly fly into Afghanistan or Iraq. He has to sneak in by night and land in fear of being shot down by rebels.

lol
The president (on of the most powerful people on earth) has been to an active war zone several times. I don't think you fully grasp that.

US is losing its allies.

Please. Name one ally we've lost....

Italy is pulling out.

So are we in a couple years. Big deal....

Japan is already gone.

Ok?
Their presence in Iraq was more symbolic than anything. We're not even close to losing them as an ally.

The rest is just blah blah blah...


Anyway, I know this was just a joke

Back on topic:
Joe -

Perhaps a product of being the sole superpower and the urge to be everywhere at once, but still something the US can afford to change.

Can it really afford to change?
Until a good alternative feul source comes along, us being in that region or having friends in that region will continue to benefit us as we need that black gold....

Vagabond is completely right that the American people (in fact probably the whole of the West) have a crisis fetish. Hay I remember what Fox News was like after 9/11, its like people were scared of finding terrorists in their kitchen. But remember Fox is Americas most successful news channel and so that just goes to prove your point. And I think you gave all the right reasons too.

The administration of government is another thing. Chances are it made its decisions to go to war in Iraq; behind closed doors consulting only the most senior trusted lobbyist.
Therefore its the job of the administration of government to exploit this Crises Fetish. It simply needs to get the public to tag along with its decisions; and to do this they consult media officials (or to put it another way specialists in exploiting America's crisis fetish). And because it’s a Western (rather merely an American phenomenon) the crisis fetish specialist’s solutions work throughout the Western world.

Meanwhile the rest of the Arab world; (and all of sanity) just sit back as they hear the B52's have been ordered to that location, or this location. And they say why are we Westerners tolerating this? And some holy man might say "because they are evil".
The truth is far more simple it’s because we like to watch Fox (or to put it more specifically we have crisis fetish). If we didn’t have that it would be far harder for the officials in government to exploit us, towards their pre-fabricated aims.

Vagabond if I could elect you to run our foreign policy I would.

1. Your right that North Korea can just stuff itself because as long as its got the support of China it doesn't need our help. Furthermore they are perfectly capable of relaxing some of that communism some more, to bring in some more money.
2. Likewise Iran isn't worth the trouble. It's armed with biological and chemical weapons (biological are its nuclear equivalent for now so ether way Israel is screwed if we push them over the edge). Anyway Iran probably wouldn’t be seeking nukes if Saddam’s example of unilateral disarmament hadn’t shown what we do to un Israel friendly dictatorships without WMD's (we invade them and bring their leaders to justice for doing the morally right thing).
Furthermore if Saddam was still in power they certainly wouldn’t be doing it as he always hated them for being the bunch of Fundamentalists they are. And if we were smart we could have made friends with him again and had our cheap oil without the added cost of war. Hay if we had wanted his military could even have remained WMD free (their whole purpose was to defend Iraq against Iran and us).
3. Saudi Arabia? Don't know about them. I would at least threaten sanctions of some sort if they don't improve their human rights. How about we confiscate their leaders money; and pay of some U.S dept? Then we say "we spent half of it but you can still pay your mortgage for that palace with the other half if you improve your human rights NOW.
I mean let's face it, Saudi money is Ok when it’s invested in our economy but is only Good money when it belongs to us. Of course they will probably say "you keep the money, we'll keep the human rights, China is now our true buddy"
I would just say “ok that's exactly how I wanted it; you just supply the world market (or else its crazy stuff next)”. Oils, oil it’s the global price that's the issue (not where it came from).

The Vagabond you on the right track when it comes to North Korea.
North Korea is being kept alive by life support and its time to pull the plug. All foreign and humanitarian aid needs to be stopped. After the US and its allies impose an econmic blockade of North Korea we will finally see the end of a failed state.

Incentives need to be given to Russia and China in order to prevent North Korea from remaining on life support.

First of all, I'd like to express my complete lack of appreciation for the fact that whether or not we are winning in Iraq seems to have been found topical here. I see the vague connection; as a conspiracy theorist I do excell at playing "six degrees of separation", however I was really hoping to discuss something more along the lines of why we tollerate these wars of words.

Iraq is what it is. I won't even bothering trying to define "is" for you all: you can ask the Clintons or O'Reilly or whoever you listen to and I'm sure they'll tell you what you want to hear about Iraq. It's about 4 years too late to try and decide what our policy on Iraq should be.

North Korea, Iran, Syria, Saudi, etc are all devoid of US forces at the moment however, so I thought it might be a good idea, in light of upcoming elections especially, for those of us who give a dang to talk a bit about which problem really needs to be dealt with: those nations, or the failures in our own system which allow those nations to be a thorn in our side in the first place.

As for my candidacy, my current timeline (if everything goes off without a hitch) puts me on a congressional ballot somewhere around 2016. I'll be eligibile to run for the top spot in 2020 (well, i'll be 35 in 2018, so if I'm popular enough I could always knockoff the VP and get appointed in his place then) but I really doubt anyone can go from 2 congressional terms to the presidency. Really by the time I have a snowball's chance in hell of running successfully, odds are we'll be so screwed that I won't even want the job anymore.

Thanks for the support though... and remember, "I'm not a crook"