I am a

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward

Originally posted by queenannie38
But these are not really 'christians'

You say they're not Christians because they don't understand. A lot of them would say you're not a Christian because of your unorthodox ideas.

That's okay, because I'm not a christian.

I'd rather avoid the confusion altogether and say that anyone who wants to call himself a Christian is one.

Yes, I see your intentions toward avoiding bickering and they are truly noble. I didn't make my reply clearly, and I apologize. It sounded totally heinous and I didn't mean it that way.

What I should have said, what I mean, is that there is no biblical proof and no testimony of God that He chose the christian religion nor is there reason to think that it would be christianity who can properly decode the word.

The word is greatly the work of prophets--and prophets from God are always, without exception, of the bloodline of Jacob. Israel. There really aren't any Jewish prophets these days although some of the most wisest men who truly trust God can be found in the Jewish people. But the prophets haven't spoken to them since around 600 or so BC and the prophecy of the book of Revelation is written in Greek but is totally Hebrew and so is still a prophesy of an Israelite.

And that's why so few can unlock even a few secrets of the bible, and there have not been any that have the key to the whole thing. When one arrives, they will not be either christian or Jewish--and that's all I really meant to say--the key to prophesy is the testimony of Jesus Christ but not necessarily the word of any religion, no matter what their name is.

since I'm NOT a Christian and so have no dog in that hunt.

Neither am I nor do I have a dog in the hunt. I'm not an hunter but rather a poet.

But I do have a conviction and some words given that I have to speak, so please forgive me for my bluntness. I don't want to seem ill-tempered or bitter, because truly I am not! Just seriously dedicated to God and truth. Not mine but His.

Originally posted by queenannie38
and prophets from God are always, without exception, of the bloodline of Jacob.

Can you explain that, please? What you've literally said here is that in order to be a prophet, a person has to be one of Jacob's biological descendants. Is that what you meant?

I'm not saying that general mundane prognostication or personal psychic awareness of various sorts is dependent upon familial lines, but only the prophesy which is literally a 'bubbling forth' about God's plan for the world...

The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Yehoshua the Messiah...

Many people have an ability to link to the second level of awareness, in various ways. And as time goes on, I see more and more evidence of that. But the things of God concerning the restoration of all things--those things are only given to those who are children of Israel--His servants, the prophets.

Remember, though--how many people in this world could possibly qualify as that--with 10 tribes scattered so long ago, I figure most of the world has some portion of Hebrew blood in their veins....and King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines! And fathered the royal line of Ethiopia...

The only way to tell if what a prophet says is true (about biblical things) is not so much accuracy--the meanings are always veiled, anyway---but whether it addresses the thing that the OT prophets spoke of: God's promise to the people He brought out of Egypt to restore their place in the scheme of things in order to bring peace to the whole world. There is no substitution of that assembly with the christian church--God doesn't change His mind or lie.

And the church could never bring Israel to recognize Yehoshua as their Messiah--because they will only worship God (Ha shem) and christians worship Christ which is idolatry to the Jews...

Here's my take on the whole "chosen people" idea, of which you've expressed a version, Annie.

Originally, the Hebrews were (or at least were supposed to be) monotheolatrous polytheists. That is, they believed multiple gods and goddesses existed (hence were polytheists), but they were only supposed to worship one of them (hence were monotheolatrous). This was a rule sometimes honored more in the breach than the observance, but there's no question the rule existed.

YHVH was not, in the original conception, God the Creator of the Universe, he was just the God of their tribes, whom they were supposed to worship before all others.

That changed with the Babylonian captivity. Removed from Jerusalem, the Hebrew deportees could no longer worship in the old way. They could not sacrifice in the Temple. Their God, YHVH, was located in the land of Israel, and they had been removed from any access to him when they were forcibly removed from that land. Earlier deportees to Assyria lost their cultural identity and assimilated. But the Babylonian captives instead changed their idea of God to something universal and accessible anywhere. They ceased to be merely Hebrews and became Jews. Judaism was born, not on Mount Sinai, but in Babylon.

But the transition was not complete, because YHVH retained his old tribal connection to the Hebrew people, even while assimilating some of the qualities of a loftier and more universal deity. A complete transition would have been to say: "The God we have worshiped is not merely the God of our people, but the God of all people. He does not love and guide us in particular, but everyone equally, and we in our limited understanding never realized who and what He was."

But the incomplete transition instead involved saying: "The God we have worshiped, the God of Israel, is the creator of the universe, the God of all people, and we never knew it. He has chosen us as his instruments, before all other people. See how special we are!"

The idea that God has particularly chosen the Jewish people as His agents, or to receive His message, is, in my opinion, nothing more than the vestiges of the Hebrews' old tribal religion, preserved anachronistically into the much more profound faith that was born in Babylon. There is no truth in it. God speaks of His/Her/Its plan for the world to anyone who will listen and has an ear to hear.

The abiding sin of the whole Mosaic line of religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is this arrogance, this conviction that they, and they alone, have been blessed by God with The Truth. It emerged originally with the Jews, in the way I described above, but Christians and Muslims each have their own version that is at least as bad. That I could not stomach this arrogance is probably the number one reason why I am no longer a Christian.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
Here's my take on the whole "chosen people" idea, of which you've expressed a version, Annie.

It isn't a version. It is how He set it up. I can't prove it, but I know it without hesitation and I know it will be manifested in just that way for all the world to see.

Originally, the Hebrews were (or at least were supposed to be) monotheolatrous polytheists.

I just posted something about that: www.belowtopsecret.com...

That is, they believed multiple gods and goddesses existed (hence were polytheists), but they were only supposed to worship one of them (hence were monotheolatrous).
(....)
It emerged originally with the Jews, in the way I described above, but Christians and Muslims each have their own version that is at least as bad. That I could not stomach this arrogance is probably the number one reason why I am no longer a Christian.

So am I to understand that you experienced all this first hand and are well-versed in the modern day Jewish lifestyle and outlook? As well as the Muslim?

You aren't a christian because you couldn't stomach Jews or christians? I don't follow.

Originally posted by queenannie38
It isn't a version. It is how He set it up.

To quote Cromwell: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."

(Cromwell could have done well to take his own advice, but . . .)

So am I to understand that you experienced all this first hand

Of course not; I'm just capable of research.

and are well-versed in the modern day Jewish lifestyle and outlook? As well as the Muslim?

As well versed as one can be from the outside, yes.

You aren't a christian because you couldn't stomach Jews or christians? I don't follow.

I can't stomach the arrogance that says "God speaks to me and not to you," in whatever form. Jews say, "We are God's chosen people." Christians say, "Only through our religion can you come to God." Muslims say, "Mohammed was the last prophet, and all other religions are either precursors to Islam or deceptions of the Devil."

All of that is an attempt to put oneself -- one's tribe, one's religion -- above all others. I don't believe God is a racist, and I don't believe that He/She/It speaks only to one people or only in one voice.

Strip away that "we are special" stuff, and all three religions contain much truth and much valid metaphor. But the delusion of specialness poisons the whole.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by curiousity
His Father's blood is what made His sacrifice valid.

His Father didn't have any blood!! God the Father is pure Spirit.

Spirit is not flesh and blood.

queenannie, I do appreciate you thoughtful replies, I just don't have time right now or even today to answer them in detail, but this one thing I'll ask...that we not assume God is not capable of anything He chooses to do, and is certainly justified in whatever use He wishes to put His creation to, whether it is you, me, or Mary.

God created blood in which is the life of the being. He created it in the first place in Adam and He created it the 2nd time in the last Adam, Jesus Christ, Yeshua, Messiah, Son of God and Son of Man. Why would that be hard to believe?

Originally posted by curiousity
but this one thing I'll ask...that we not assume God is not capable of anything He chooses to do, and is certainly justified in whatever use He wishes to put His creation to, whether it is you, me, or Mary.

You can assume or not assume whatever you please. What would be the purpose in agreeing to mutually assume? Anything?

Why would that be hard to believe?

Who said it would be hard to believe? Common sense tells me that 'pure spirit' does not contain blood, and a few things Paul said support that idea, as well. If you need to believe stuff like that, then by all means you are free to do as you choose. I can't believe what I don't believe.

What do you say we just drop the subject--it's not going to do any good since I don't think we have the same aims--and you are busy--don't let me add to it, because I don't require any kind of detailed reply to any of this.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
To quote Cromwell: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."

(Cromwell could have done well to take his own advice, but . . .)

That's actually some pretty sick imagery, with that quote! Yuk.

If it were me guessing, I'd have to probably just agree without protest. But it's not my mistake to make. I didn't make the plans and I am not God.

and are well-versed in the modern day Jewish lifestyle and outlook? As well as the Muslim?

As well versed as one can be from the outside, yes.

That's why I asked how you knew. Because the outside is not the same as what they maintain in their privacy. They are admirable and beautiful people, very intelligent, open minded and tolerant of most everything for the individual. We could learn a lot from them, but I don't blame them for not showing us that. Most people wouldn't appreciate it or respect it--they never have yet and it's a shame.

I can't stomach the arrogance that says "God speaks to me and not to you," in whatever form. Jews say, "We are God's chosen people."

Well, they are--and it isn't an arrogant boast, because He said He chose them, and they believe it wholeheartedly. Every day they get out of bed with the hope that their King David will come that day. 3000 years or so it's been like that. Obviously the events that are said to have taken place as the Exodus were more than memorable, because they have stuck together and are actually thriving as a population, in spite of all the times they have been murdered, driven out, and slaughtered. If there is any proof of God in this world, it is surely the fact of the very existence and faithfulness toward God.

Christians say, "Only through our religion can you come to God." Muslims say, "Mohammed was the last prophet, and all other religions are either precursors to Islam or deceptions of the Devil."

Well, but they didn't get the same message as the Jews--these ideas aren't much at all compared with what I said above. If they arrogant and unfounded, and God is true and the Jews are one day rewarded with their King, then all the arrogance would probably be taken care of real quick!

All of that is an attempt to put oneself -- one's tribe, one's religion -- above all others. I don't believe God is a racist, and I don't believe that He/She/It speaks only to one people or only in one voice.

It's not about race--it much deeper than that and the choosing is not because of special favor or preference--it is actually something that is intended to benefit the whole world, and they are the helpers not the teacher's pets, so to speak.

Strip away that "we are special" stuff, and all three religions contain much truth and much valid metaphor. But the delusion of specialness poisons the whole.

All religions contain truth, much metaphor, and even more misuse and skewing is evident. But from what I see, it is the ones without any claim of being chosen or special that are tooting their horns so loud, not the Jews. You don't hear Jews say that, you hear others say that about the Jews in derision and the Jews are blamed.

I'm only saying that because I see it as true ugliness on the part of all the world, and they are not provoking it. They really don't publish anything to that effect and they handle it with quiet dignity. Very humble people.

Originally posted by queenannie38
If it were me guessing, I'd have to probably just agree without protest. But it's not my mistake to make. I didn't make the plans and I am not God.

But you are the one claiming that certain words express those plans. If they did not come from you, still it is your will, your belief, your claim that they are holy.

I beseech you, think it possible that you are mistaken about THAT.

That's why I asked how you knew. Because the outside is not the same as what they maintain in their privacy. They are admirable and beautiful people, very intelligent, open minded and tolerant of most everything for the individual. We could learn a lot from them, but I don't blame them for not showing us that.

I have known a great many Jews very well. I have celebrated religious rituals with Jews. I have worked for and with Jews. I have had lengthy discussions on many subjects with Jews. I am not, however, Jewish myself. Are you?

In some cases, I would concur that these were "admirable and beautiful people," etc. In others, I would not. The ratio I would say is pretty much the same as with other ethnic groups.

I can't stomach the arrogance that says "God speaks to me and not to you," in whatever form. Jews say, "We are God's chosen people."

Well, they are--and it isn't an arrogant boast, because He said He chose them

Supposedly. But that's what I'm saying here. No set of words in human language can be the "Word of God," because human language cannot convey truths on that scale.

If your mind has been sufficiently transformed to be able to understand, then you don't need any written or spoken Word of God. If not, you cannot comprehend the meaning of a written or spoken Word of God even if it is available, nor make an informed judgment about the matter.

Thus, there can be no written or spoken Word of God in the sense Jews, Christians, and Muslims mean. And therefore the statement, "He said He chose them," has no meaning.

and they believe it wholeheartedly.

I'm aware of that. I consider it a fatal flaw in the Jewish religion, something that holds Jews back from real understanding, just as the similar flaws in Christianity and Islam hold those believers back.

But from what I see, it is the ones without any claim of being chosen or special that are tooting their horns so loud, not the Jews.

If you are referring to Christianity and Islam, then you are correct. But the reason for that, I believe, is because Christians and Muslims believe that everyone ought to believe as they do. Jews do not, but believe that nobody who isn't Jewish really matters to God anyway the way Jews do. That's actually a little more arrogant than the Christian or Muslim position, but, paradoxically, it also leads Jews to be less obnoxious, pushy, and overbearing than Christians and Muslims can be. At least when it comes to trying to convert others.

Religions outside the Mosaic lineage altogether, though, don't do that kind of horn-tooting, so if you broaden your statement to include all religions, not just those descended of Moses, then I must disagree with you.

They really don't publish anything to that effect and they handle it with quiet dignity. Very humble people.

That does not even remotely agree with my own observations. I can agree that some Jews are intelligent, good people, as you said above. But there is nothing humble about a belief that one is specially favored by God. That is a belief that is all too likely to lead to the kinds of brutal, genocidal behavior that Israel, both ancient and modern, too often exhibited and exhibits towards its neighbors. If Jews in the Diaspora do not exhibit the same kind of behavior, well, that is because they seldom hold the power to be able to, and instead often become the victims of persecution when times are hard.

Victim or victimizer -- I can think of few historical situations in which Jews did not occupy one of those roles or the other. That does not speak of "humility" to my understanding.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by Two Steps Forward]

Originally posted by queenannie38
What do you say we just drop the subject--it's not going to do any good since I don't think we have the same aims--and you are busy--don't let me add to it, because I don't require any kind of detailed reply to any of this.

Sounds good to me, I'm feeling a bit battered from my experiences on another thread in ATS and think I just need to myob for a few days.

Peace and I'm out.

I have faith that people are dumb and chocolate is goood

'I am a' - speck of eltromagnetic dust in a mysterious and complex universal tide, desperately hoping some act of love greater than myself and all the scientific mysteries I ascertain shall notice me and lend a gentle fulfillment to my yearning for God.

That's beautiful, clearwater!!!