what P.E.T.A doesnt tell you

Originally posted by ANOK

Oh so I'm a communist because I point out that the idea that animal testing is for profit rather than the Human good they claim? I was just pointing out the hypocracy.

No, you're a communist for implying that the profit motive automatically makes people wicked or evil. Which has nothing to do with the kind of food you want to eat.

And food fasicst? Wow so I'm a nazi now?

You've quite gleefullly thrown labels around this thread. I think it is a lovely description of your vilification of other people's eating habits as, um, immoral

Yep, that's a pretty good definition of fascism; demanding that other people obey you because you are morally superior, and trying to coerce them into agreeing with you.

"Fascist" applies to the venom you spew at people who disagree with you--that anyone who dares hold a different opinion is "careless," or "ignorant," or "has no compassion."

But don't try to tell me you care, . .

See, there you go again.

. . . billions of people could be saved from an agonizing slow death from starvation if we didn't waste recources raising cows, as I have already pointed out.
But hey I guess as long as they're not americans it doesn't matter?

Again with the straw man, and the charges that I'm a moral monster because I disagree.

I won't try to tell you that your numbers are BS, because you ignored my response anyway. But I'll say it again for others who're interested in both sides.

My knowledge of beef raising is based on American practice. Practices vary world-wide.

In the states, beef cattle are often moved out into grass pasture as soon as they are big enough to fend for themselves and weather permits. Depending on local conditions, they may spend up to a year or so on grass. Finally, they are sold to a feedlot for finishing, by being fed grain for between 30 and 90 days. Beef marketers may vary the time, depending on market prices for beef.

MOST of the weight a calf puts on during life is from eating pasture grass. This is inedible for humans. On the American plains, the cattle are not kept in barns or otherwise cared for, other than daily headcounts to determine that none are lost or stolen.

The amount of grain fed at the finishing lot is a function of the price of grain, the price of holding them in a feedlot, and the premium paid for beef with marbled fat. The duration of feedlot stays has declined in the last 5 years, as Americans prefer leaner and leaner beef.

The primary feeds in the US are wheat and corn (maize). Almost all corn/maize grown in the US is expressly for feed. All but number one corn is considered unfit for human consumption, due to it's toughness, dryness, lack of nutrients, or damaged state of the grains.

Wheat is more rarely fed to cattle, because of it's value as a human foodstuff. Hard red winter wheat, the staple of American wheat farming, can be sold for human consumption if the quality is high enough. Since it generally brings a higher price that way, it is seldom fed to animals unless there is a glut of wheat supply.

It's a total misrepresentation to pretend that most of the corn the US produces (and exports) would be eaten by people. The reason farmers grow feedgrains is because the plants require less care (especially water) than human food stocks do. They are also easier to harvest and store.

Here's a glossary from the University of Arkansas, of agribusiness terms, so you can educate yourself:

Agglossary

As far as the USA is concerned, it's the world's leading exporter of feedgrains. So why does this mean that people are going hungry, because Americans eat beef? If anything, the US export leadership shows that feeding grain to cows is an economical way to harvest and store up protein.

Again, it's starving people in third world countries who benefit most from eating meat, since they usually do so in moderation. A family owning pigs or goats often means the difference in survival.

This group, Heifer International, is feeding hungry people around the world by providing them with their own livestock, so that they can raise their own animals on local foodstuffs. Some families are also able to sell excess livestock for cash income.

Instead of bitching about the evils of western civilization, they are helping hungry and oppressed people. And they are doing it by helping those people raise their own meat, and launch their own businesses.

We feed the worms, dude.

LOl Good point mate, but not me thanks, I want to be cremated, f*ck lying in the ground with something crawling through you!
Not that youd know about it, but its the though that counts.

I should've been specific I guess. While we are ontop of the food chain, we are no longer an integral part of it, excepting to everything else. Thank God for that eh!

Originally posted by Blaine91555
...
I think the real issue here is that it should be a personal choice and not shoved down our throats by people who have a problem with us eating a natural diet. Being a vegetarian is not “natural”. It is a lifestyle choice.
...

Tell that to the millions and millions of people in India and Asia who can't afford meat very often (if at all). But I see where you're coming from. I only eat fish, but even I get pissed when people tell me I shouldn't eat beef (which I don't). To me, people telling you how to eat (unless you asked for the information), is just as bad as people telling you what religion to believe in, lest you go to hell. It's all personal relativity. What's good for some is not good for others. Climate has much to do with it as well. In colder temperatures, you burn more calories to stay warm. Meat is a very fast way to gain caloric intake, so theoretically, northerners should eat more meat than southerners. Might be why so many southerners are so fat....

Now, there's such a thing a genetically high cholesterol and blood pressure. Those people should take it easy on cholesterol high food (meat). I won't convert them, but I do think America is lacking in teaching the education of what substances you can eat to gain your daily needs (be it meat, veggies, legumes, fruits, ect.)

That's what we should looby for. Getting unbiased doctor's to teach for a week in highschool health classes. That would've helped me out a bunch.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
Climate has much to do with it as well. In colder temperatures, you burn more calories to stay warm. Meat is a very fast way to gain caloric intake, so theoretically, northerners should eat more meat than southerners. Might be why so many southerners are so fat....

I think you're pretty close to the truth.

One factor is, modern people finally have the ability to satisfy every last craving of their bodies.

We genetically inherit the tastes of semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers, but live in a technological, urban setting.

For instance, sausage. An excellent way to store huge amounts of fat during the winter, when hay wasn't exist, and herds were culled down to a sustainable level. Ancient Eurasians probably at a couple of pounds a year, in the late winter, when they needed the fat intake.

Likewise, our hunger for sweets. Our ancestors probably got sucrose about once a year, when they found a beehive. They didn't brush their teeth very efficiently--but then, they didn't eat enough sweets to matter, either.

The greatest need humans had historically was for enough fat in the diet. But now, our farming practices are so advanced we get all the fat we want--and that's a bad thing.

Part of the reason southerners in the US "are fat" goes back to farming practices. Pigs are incredibly efficient foragers. Before the civil war, southern diet of both races was almost entirely based on pork meat (cattle didn't fare will in the humid summers of the US southeast.) Most of their ideas of vegetables came from the north, and northern garden produce wouldn't grow in the hot wet southern climate. The book below suggests that they made up for the lack of vegetables by increasing their meat intake:

Black Southerners 1619 - 1869 (New Perspectives on the South Series) by John B. Boles.

Originally posted by ANOK
Look, no one is trying to force you to do anything.

Why do you get so defensive when your choice is questioned? Usualy indicates feelings of guilt

No, for me it's not being defensive. It indicates that I'm sick and tired of organizations like PETA and people like you interferring in my personal choices and business. Don't you get it at all??? Freedom means I get to choose for myself and you get to choose for yourself whether we eat meat. We don't get to shove our personal beliefs down the throat of everyone that happens by.

Anti-Social Issues

Let's please try to remember that the topic of this thread isn't "What I Think About You", but PETA and what Penn and Teller think about PETA.

On PTS, as on ATS, all points of view are welcome as long as they are on-topic.

To summarize briefly...

Other members: Off-topic. :shk:

PETA, animal rights activism and/or Penn & Teller: On-topic.

I hope that helps.