Who really had the lands of Jerusalem first?

2000 Years of Arab squatting, and it's a wasteland.

how does this make palestine a land for the jews???????????????

Why should jews from Russia and other western countries come to a land where there were arabs, kill them and take their lands????????????????

Why should religion be tied to a country and a race???? if there were jews who liked their land so much, why they didn't remain in it? why didn't they accept to rule with the arabs, but instead took their land to rule it alone?????????

why did they remember suddenly that Israel is their homeland? what are the blue eyed, blond westerners doing in the land of the palestinians???

why should the palestinians pay hiltelr's fault???

it is amazing how people come to accept things as facts

just for your Massada hatred link, here is a jew speaking about Deir Yassin massacre that Israel did to the palestinians.

www.ariga.com...

see also www.palestinehistory.com...

www.greenleft.org.au...

www.larouchepub.com...


see the death masters www.deathmasters.com...

I am not saying that the palestinians are right killing innocent people, but they were killed first. I wondet how wouldn't all these Israeli massacres turn each arab kid as a future revenger. And Massada has all the guts to defend Israelis. Pheeeeew

more

www.greenleft.org.au...


If American Knew All what they need to know about Palestine/Israel:

www.ifamericansknew.org...


[edit on 2-7-2006 by Wind]

www.canpalnet-ottawa.org...

watch the video clip on this site: who is the terrorist , which is the second icon to right. Israel has created the sense of revenge in the Palestinans.

Wind.

Do not mistake historical facts and my considerations of them, as some means to suggest I accept the Situation seen in the West Bank and Gaza for the last 60 years, either.

The United Nations should have addressed this in the 50's. They did not.

For the sole purpose of enflaming political unrest in the whole region, this problem is now a handmedown, for the Globe to pity today.

The Arab Nations ignoring their Own people, and allowing them to lanquish in detention facilites (for lack of a better term to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip) is also disgusting.

Two generations of people, LOST, inorder to ensure Israel is not welcomed in the region. Two generations and likely nearing three now, that where BORN into this mess.

No, I do feel for the "Palestinian Refugees" living in the West Bank and Gaza. They should have been assimilated into the Arab World and gone on from it 60 Years ago, rather than being locked into holding pens like they are today. The West Bank and Gaza is not much land at all. Just two big Jail Cells

Neither is Israel for that matter. A small Fortress in the Vast Middle East.

But, my sympathy for lies about the History of this land, is different. I have none.

Ciao

Shane

Since when has it really mattered who the rightful owners are when someone wants your land or your natural resources?

It seems we only have selective justice based on wealth and power.

If the native American Indians and the African tribes had been treated fairly, the whole world
would be a better place.

Personally, I'm disgusted by what our great forefathers did exploiting the indigenous populations
all over the world.

History sucks! Get over it and try to do the best with what you have been given.

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
Personally, I'm disgusted by what our great forefathers did exploiting the indigenous populations all over the world.

I must ask then, what about what we (You and Me in the collective sense) are doing, just as our great forefathers did? It continues to this day, and it is all for the simple sake of Materialistic Needs that we (You and Me) have.

I am just wondering, that's all. The comment struck me as if somehow, at some point, we bettered ourselves, when it's seems to me, things are worst off today for all Indigenous Peoples, due to our unwillingness to do something constructive, for a change.

Native Peoples in Canada live in some of the Worst Polluted Lands in our country. They are raising children using water's that are contaminated, and have been so for several decades. Our compassionate Leftiest Parties did nothing for them in over thrity years of rule.

In other countries around the Globe, indigenous Peoples are facing extinction.

What Changes???

Ciao

Shane

Well if we weren't so pre-occupied with "spreading freedom and democracy"

over in the middle east, perhaps We The People could convince congress to honor
their obligations to our first Amercians.

The fact is that the so called civilized world has enough money and power and resources to
feed, cloth and provide shelter, or the means to help themselves for just about every human on the
planet.

Unfortunately, any such design would immediately be put down as socialism.

The mega rich are obviously not very keen on that idea.

The working class provides plenty of money through taxation, but our hard earned taxes
are squandered and mismanaged by those who represent us.

Originally posted by d1k
All the fighting over the past 2000+ years over the lands of Jerusalem, who really "owned" it first? Arabs, Christians, Jews or someone else?

The Neanderthals.

Yes, really.
www.athenapub.com...

And who actually built Jerusalem?

A good question. The Biblical record is contradicted by older Egyptian records. At present, the best available data from archaeology and ancient records is that it was probably built by the "Canaanites."
en.wikipedia.org...

They were conquered by the Isreaelites:
en.wikipedia.org...

I'm ignorant on this subject, I read all the posts here on ATS, I've seen movies on the matter but I have heard no definitive answer on who really had the land first. I always assumed it was Jewish land even before Christ showed up but now seeing the movie Kingdom of Heaven it pretty much stated that it was the Arabs land first.

I'm told it's an excellent movie. It correctly states the beliefs at that time -- that the Arabs had always been there, and that Saladin and his people owned the city.

Remember, though, their own knowledge of history wasn't very good. There was a limit to the number of books they had (and almost nobody could read and so they generally believed what they were told.)

[edit on 2-7-2006 by Byrd]

I say we kick everyone out and give that land back to the rightful owners.

The critters.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by d1k
And who actually built Jerusalem?

A good question. The Biblical record is contradicted by older Egyptian records. At present, the best available data from archaeology and ancient records is that it was probably built by the "Canaanites."

[edit on 2-7-2006 by Byrd]

A few weeks ago, I was reading this about David's City, and the appearance of David's (or the Kings) actual Residence, under the Temple Mount. It is discribed in Scripture, and the findings are becoming interesting, regardless if the find is or is not David's Palace.

www.washingtonpost.com...

......But the Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazar believes the evidence she has uncovered during months of excavation and biblical comparison points to an extraordinary discovery.

She believes she has found the palace of King David, the poet-warrior who the Bible says consolidated the ancient Jewish kingdom around the 10th century B.C. and expanded its borders to encompass the Land of Israel. Others are doubtful.

This would seemingly solve your Question D1K? Jebusites built it. But there are doubters.`It goes on.

www.washingtonpost.com...

The Bible's rich account of David's life has made him one of its most identifiable figures. Slayer of Goliath, a pious and treacherous king, author of psalms, David consolidated the northern kingdom of Israel and Judah around the year 1000 B.C. into a single political state under his rule. After defeating the Jebusites, he made his capital in Jerusalem, at the time a walled settlement of about a dozen acres.

Although excavations in the West Bank have produced important finds dating to that time, Jerusalem has yielded relatively little evidence of its importance, and rapid development has overwhelmed much of the city's rich buried history.

"This place was always thought of as being a lost cause," said Amihai Mazar, a renowned Hebrew University archaeologist and Eilat's second cousin, who is working closely with her. "Now we see there is a chance for new evidence."

It is important, that History is preserved, regardless if the Arab People or Doubters question the Validity of the find. If it is not David's Palace, it should still be studied. Anyhow, it goes on.

www.washingtonpost.com...

"This was not just a house, but a fantastic house," Eilat Mazar said of the remains, which would have stood just outside the city walls at the time. "This would have been an intellectual step for a new king to build his palace here, a statement of his vision to expand the city."

In one room, Mazar also found a bulla, or seal, roughly dating to the 6th century B.C. It bears the words, written in ancient Hebrew, "Jehucal, son of Shelemiah, son of Shevi." The name Jehucal is found at least twice in the Book of Jeremiah. The find suggests the building was used, in one form or another, for centuries. "We're left with the assumption that this is the palace," Mazar said. "It fits so well with the history. We're not forcing it into anything."

Even the Skeptical are thinking this dates Jerusalem to 900 BC as it notes. I checked your Wiki Link Byrd, and could not see anything updated about this in there, so I thought it was appropriate to offer it now.

As for the Jebusites, they are the inhabitants of Jebus
Jebusites is Yebuwciy which derives from Yebuwc, meaning trodden, i.e. threshing place. Jebus is an Aboriginal name
Jebus is from the Prime Buwc, meaning to Trample (literally or figurativily):- loath, tread (down, under [foot]), be polluted.
(Strong Concordance)

Myth is again becoming reality.

Ciao

Shane

No, I do feel for the "Palestinian Refugees" living in the West Bank and Gaza. They should have been assimilated into the Arab World and gone on from it 60 Years ago, rather than being locked into holding pens like they are today. The West Bank and Gaza is not much land at all. Just two big Jail Cells

but that's blaming the victim. No, Lebanon and other arab countries have enough problems. they can't accept more Palestinians. besides, Palestine is their homeland. They should remain there and get at least their Palestinian independant government. Israel doesn't want that. They keep on humiliating them everyday, creating from each one of them a potential suicide bomber.

It is a pity that victims are blamed for their clinging to their land. Israel is doing all this to them to force them to leave their own land. Are you supporting this?

Originally posted by Wind
but that's blaming the victim. No, Lebanon and other arab countries have enough problems. they can't accept more Palestinians. besides, Palestine is their homeland. They should remain there and get at least their Palestinian independant government. Israel doesn't want that. They keep on humiliating them everyday, creating from each one of them a potential suicide bomber.

It is a pity that victims are blamed for their clinging to their land. Israel is doing all this to them to force them to leave their own land. Are you supporting this?

Excuse me Wind.

Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia could have taken the Arabs in the Fifties, and when the Arab nations attacked Israel in 67, they should have been forced to accept them, due to the ignorance they, along with Egypt showed in attacking Israel from THIER (Lebanon, Jordan, Syrian and Egyptian Lands).

Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt did not give a crap for their own people in the 50's and 60's, much like today.

And despite your wish to ignore fact, Palestine has been given at least 3 opportunities to have Statehood. Olso, Madrid and was it Camp David or somewhere in Michigan? I forget exactly.

Problem is, the Terror Networks are so intermingled today within the Arab populations of the West Bank and Gaza, that it is impossible for any decent Arab to Stand for the People and progress.

Again, this is due to the Whims of the Neighbourhood. Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan simply forment the problem with Arms, Training and Suicide Bonus's for those that murder innocent Bus travelers or Cafe eaters, when the Blow themselves to bit's. ($25000.00 a POP or is it Boom)

It has become the only Industry in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

And here, you Wind, are sitting back, thinking Israel is at fault for defending itself.

That's funny in a Sad Pathetic way.

But if you had not noticed, this is not the debate in this Topic. From the Responses of others, it is clear, it was the the Homeland of the Critters, and as per Byrd, the Nethanderals.

Biblically the Philistines, Cananites, Jebusites, and Israel Owned it. The name used to respented Israel's title has been used for 2000 Years roughly. PALESTINE.

So please stop crying over current events. I could solve it in five days, and no one would be any angrier than they are already. Nothing would change, except Peace "Within Israel". And that is all Israel wishes.

Ciao

Shane

Now you excuse me Shane.

When the war was initiated by the Arabs on Israel, it was to get their lands back. You ask me not to expect Israel not to defend itself, but it seems you expect us to sit doing nothing. As I am against suicide bombing for those innocent people, I am not against people fighting for their lands, for their survival, (have you watched the video clip I suggested in the above link? have you understood the anger that drives these people to become suicide bombers?)


If Palestine was for the Cana'anites and the Isaraelis, then it was for both, not only Israelis, and especialy not the Europians who came from Russia and Germany...whereever..to rule a state of completely different people.

And what? Palestine was given a chance for doing a state and it refused? Come on. You should wonder who doesn't want Palestine to be a state. I heard from Bothayna Sha'aban, a Syrian governor who was present in some peace negotiations, that Madeline Albright, as fanatic as she could be supporting Israel, even she laid the responsibility on Israel for not wanting peace in the Middle East. Anyhow, it depends if you are dealing with Fatah or Hamas, as their views differ, but peace treaty should be a decent deal and not just to silence people up.

Now if we are to get back to who is the land for, biblical sources say that the Israelites removed the Cana'anites by force from their land. Enough said to prove that they didn't Own the land originally.

just for adding to knowledge about peace treaties with Israel:"In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01). "

www.fair.org...

So as a last point, don't be taken by any type of media, but try searching the issue from both sides. I knew I should write in this topic because the jewish propaganda is too powerful. And who owns the media wins half of the war.

posted by Shane

Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia could have taken the Arabs in the Fifties, and when the Arab nations attacked Israel in 67, they should have been forced to accept them, due to the ignorance they, along with Egypt showed in attacking Israel from their Lebanon, Jordan, Syrian and Egyptian Lands.
[Edited by Don W]

Sweet Jesus, this sounds like our own Andrew Jackson who ordered the Cherokees off their land for gold seeking white people and gladly put the Cherokees on the Trail of Tears - say hello Bataan Death March - to Oklahoma. We took Eastern damp forested Piedmont farmers and put them into the Western dry, level and treeless grassy plains of Oklahoma. Is this called Genocide 101? Or is it, “Trail of Tears - Good, Bataan Death March - Bad.” Hmm? It will take someone smarter than I to explain that one.

Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt did not give a crap for their own people in the 50's and 60's, much like today. And despite your wish to ignore fact, Palestine has been given at least 3 opportunities to have Statehood.

I’m scared of that one, “ . . their own people.” Sounds like Hitler describing the Slavs. Or Poles. Or Jews. Or Gypsies. Etc. “. . their own people.” Frankly, I have an alarm that goes off when I hear that combination of words. What usually follows is not good for someone. You can count on that.

Code words I call’em. The stuff Republican politics is made of. Like “bussing” and “testing” and “affirmative action” and “set asides.” Like “treat everyone equal.” All the more when coming from the dominant group and most especially when used in reference to the subservient group. Ugh.

“ . . that it is impossible for any decent Arab to Stand for the People and progress.

I suppose there are real people who really believe this trite. That a society would “kill” a “good” guy who wants to do it our way. I mean, what the hey? our way has got to be the only way! The right way! Did you ever hear of Norway’s Quisling? Or France’s Marshal Petain. Like Iraq’s Ahmed Chalabi? Or America’s own Benedict Arnold?

Training Suicide Bombers for those that murder innocent Bus travelers or Café eaters, when the Blow themselves to bit's. ($25000.00 a Boom) It has become the only Industry in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. And here, you Wind, are sitting back, thinking Israel is at fault for defending itself.

I don’t like the term “innocent’ all to frequently used here for emphasis as an adverb. We Americans lost any right to use that term as an adjective (descriptive) long ago. As in Wounded Knee and forcefully removing the Cherokees to Oklahoma and putting the Apaches into malaria mosquito infested Florida and so on. As in Sherman’s March through Georgia and South Carolina. As in Dresden. As in Hiroshima.

The name used to represented Israel's title has been used for 2000 Years roughly. PALESTINE. So please stop crying over current events. I could solve it in five days, and no one would be any angrier than they are already. Nothing would change, except Peace "Within Israel." And that is all Israel wishes. Ciao
Shane [Edited by Don W]

Hmm? I thought “Palestine” was a Roman (Latin) translation of “Philistines” who lived on the Mediterranean coast and for whom the Romans named the interior. Israel wants all of the old Palestine Protectorate free of Arabs. That is, the current government. Not all Israelis.

Peace? Not really, Ciao. If “all” Israel wished for was peace, it could have had peace in 1956 or 1967 or 1973 or 1980.

One thing I have suggested. To get out of the chicken egg issue or the he said she said issue, let’s start in 1967, after the Six Days War. Who “owned” what 5,000 years ago when the concept of “property” as we use it was not even invented just muddies the water. This also gets rid of the Right of Return issue albeit in a lying sort of way. The Israelis brazenly claim the Right of Conquest overrules the Right of Return. In the first place, the inhabitants of the region did not fight the state of Israel. The War was against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. But, let’s move on.

Do a 1947 India Pakistan trick. Give the Arabs all of the West Bank, part of East Jerusalem and all of Gaza. A pile of rocks. All Israelis move out of the Palestinian territory and all the Arabs move out of Israel. (Except those who are citizens.) Pay all Palestinian property owners a flat sum of $100,000 to extinguish their claims.

Do not permit the Palestinian state to have more than a police constabulary. That is, it will be a weapons free zone. The US sends 15,000 men to enforce the border for 10 years. The US gives the new Palestinian state $5 billion a year for the next 10 years. At the end of this 10 year period, the US cuts off all aid to Israel as well as New Palestine. End.


[edit on 7/3/2006 by donwhite]

Don White

This was a topic of Jerusalem. I am sorry if my responses to Wind and his degeneration of this topic to encompass the Unwanted Arabs confined in their holding cells, called the West Bank and Gaza Strip has taken it over.

The Question was, Jerusalem and who owned it.

I even tried to return this with recent discoveries of a Presumed Palace under the Temple Mount.

I would love to respond more, about the Poor Arabs that have been effectively Jailed by the actions of their relatives from Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt. This is a tragic matter and ongoing for far toooo long. But this wasn't the point HERE.

Open up a Topic, The Solution, or something to this effect, and I'll partake. Hopefully Wind as well as others can play there as well.

Ciao

Shane

posted by Shane

Don White

This was a topic of Jerusalem. I am sorry if my responses to Wind and his degeneration of this topic to encompass the Unwanted Arabs confined in their holding cells, called the West Bank and Gaza Strip has taken it over. The Question was, Jerusalem and who owned it. [Edited by Don W]

Jerusalem. That seems easier. Whether or not the site of today’s Jerusalem was occupied when Joshua and King David were fighting in the Land of Canaan, is in my mind, irrelevant. For sure those Israelite-Hebrew people were there 2,500 years ago from a secularist point of view. How much right today’s Jewish people have to claim to be “heirs” is dubious at best. And very unproductive as it turns out. As a secularist, I doubt the first three kings of Israel existed in real life. OK in myth, no in reality.

The important thing to me is that it was not just Israelites who lived there, then. Other people also lived there. To ignore that is to miss a very important point, historically speaking. However tempting it might be, we cannot make 2006 decisions on 2500 BCE events. Heck, we can’t even agree whether Bush said there were WMDs or that he said he thought there were WMDs. And that was only 4 yeas ago. And we allegedly speak the same language.

I even tried to return this with recent discoveries of a Presumed Palace under the Temple Mount. Ciao

Shane

On Archeology in Israel, I’m strictly a Herschel Shanks fan. If Herschel says it is so, then I’m strongly inclined to accept that. If he has doubts then I have doubts. Shanks does not think the “James” ossuary is Jesus’ brother. Neither do I. He has written for 40 years about the desirability of digging under the Temple Mount, but so far, the Muslims say “No.”

And, where once I eagerly accepted Y. Yadin’s report on the 1960s excavation of Masada as the site where 900 Jewish Zealots were thought to have committed mass suicide to deny the Romans the joy of capturing them, I am now very doubtful that Josephus Flavius did not make up the story about the 900. (Methinks the monks who copied Josephus “enhanced” the stories). Whether the 11 pottery shards with names written in Hebrew including the name, Ben Yair, were “found” there or “salted” there is open to question. Too good to be true. And you know what they say about that?

I have not read Archaeologist Eilat Mazar’s reports. I usually wait for new material to be published in BAR - Biblical Archaeological Review - with commentary.



[edit on 7/3/2006 by donwhite]

we should never give lands back to their original peoples

it will lead us to getting into these historical arguments, and eventually we'll end up as nomadic tribes people