How Can There Not Be A God

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
This is what religion has done for knowledge of God. If you look at it from a Chistain P.O.V it would seem like why would God let people suffer.

We are not here for pleasure. We are not here to collect toys. We are here to learn. We have to live many lives and learn every experience man can have before we move onto a higher plain. We reincarnate, some must have the experience of the abused in one life the abuser in another. Richman and poorman, the person that lives to serve others, and the person that is in service to self.

I think some ar incapable because of the level of spiritual evolution they are at is not high enough to feel the higher power commune with them. They are on a material plain of existance and live for ego.

I choose to live in service to others and have had my spirit greatly rewarded, while my ego is being diminished everyday.

God is everywhere, you just have to look...

Actually Id go the other way, uninformed, unintelligent people in the past believed in all kinds of gods. The intelligent people today to choose to live their lives how they want and not how someone elses wants them too.

Even if one religion was correct, there are still billions of people on this planet with false beliefs yet any religious person on convinced they are right. Religion is all about control, I mean Bush can get elected purely by manipulating idiots into voting for him based on religious grounds.

I choose not to be control as I like to think for myself.

But these animals couldn't have evolved from land animals. Would they had swimmed first a bit and decided to evolve themself gills, and then moved to live underwater? Or they just loved swimming and plankton so much, that they evolved fins for swimming and the held their breath for a couple of billion years until they had lungs capable of living most of time submerged? Yeah, sure they did.

UnholyP: Your argument is all backwards! Evolution works moving away from a newer species not toward an older species. You argue that reptiles could never become fish etc, but what your forgeting is that it works the other way around: Sea creatures didn't evolve from the land, land creatures evolved FROM THE SEA.

Originally posted by JSquared
Would you take $100 from a wallet you found, or return the wallet to it's original owner...If you are not mentally handicapped, you automatically say return the wallet....Why? Because something inside you tells you it's the "right" thing to do...

How do we know right from wrong? Or rather, how do we know good and evil? Well, one is the measuring stick of the other....they are interdependant....you can't measure good if there is no evil, therefore, it would not exist.....

You're not thinking this out all the way... ask youself again "how do we know good and evil?" The answer is that you've been taught the difference.... more then likely you were raised to think with a belief system similar to your parent's. So if you were raised without the concept of "good" and "evil" do you think you would get that gut feeling?

I'm a spiritual agnostic. I don't think you can know either way, but there's more to our world then what science can explain right now.

I also think it's ridiculous to say science can prove or dis-prove god. Science is ever changing, as soon as we figure out something we refine it and figure out more of what we just figured out. And science has a long ways to go, a lot of things to figure out.... like evolution.

GOD is DNA.

We exist because DNA is always seeking to replicate itself, to continue its existence.
DNA works to increase the odds of its survival through variation, which it uses to anticipate changes in future environments.
We are just another varation of a method or mechanism to make that happen.
We are born to create new variations and combinations of DNA, and we die because DNA requires us to die, so that a new generation with new genetic variations is born.
DNA makes us what we are as individuals, but is not concerned about us specifically as individuals, only as a species.
Intelligence, which creates abstract systems including those of law and religion, is designed to increase DNA's chance of survival.
DNA is with us always, and guides us to do things that are "good."
Everything we consider to be "good" is good for DNA. Good things are those that encourage health and procreation and protection. "Bad" things don't.

Pray to your DNA. Prayer calms and focuses you, improving your health, and helping DNA continue its drive toward replication and variation.

Originally posted by El Tiante
There’s a fair bit of evidence to support the existence of Peter and the other disciples.

But not one single tiny little shred of evidence in over 2,000 years, other than the story, of the existence of Jesus, himself. If you believe in Jesus, just because of the story, then you should also believe in the existence of Sherlock Holmes and James Bond and Harry Potter. It's all the same.
:bnghd:

svience vs. god, god vs. science; god proves science. ther more you know about science you realize that it makes perfect since with what god says. here is some proof every profesy has happend, there are about 20 about jesus life around a thousand before he was born and there pretty specific.

Originally posted by elijah777
svience vs. god, god vs. science; god proves science. ther more you know about science you realize that it makes perfect since with what god says. here is some proof every profesy has happend, there are about 20 about jesus life around a thousand before he was born and there pretty specific.

We need that confused smilie from ATS.

Originally posted by Mrknighttime32
I have been reading recent posts about God and Jesus and I saw someone that said they did not believe in God. I would like everyone to post wether or not they believe in God or why not. I will start by saying everyday that I walk outside I realize that there is a God nothing like this could happen by accident.

I'm agnostic. Before that I was a satanist. Before that I was a Christian.

The rationale is basically this:
1. The universe is such an impressive, expansive, overwhelming thing that it's hard to imagine that it never came from anywhere, but just existed. Because to have a big bang or anything like that you have to have something that already exists to go "bang" right? Well yes, it is hard to imagine that something that powerful just happened to be sitting around forever.

but then the same thing goes for God. As a Christian I asked where the universe came from. When I began to change, I asked where God came from.


The above opens up other considerations.

2. Is there something bigger than God that made him? Is the Universe also God? Did the Universe MAKE God? Is there a bigger God out there?
And here's the one that really plagued me as a Christian: Is there only one God? Afterall, God has an enemy, but God is all powerful, and God is good. God also makes it clear in the Bible that you cannot say "let us do evil that good may result".


When my Christianity began to falter, I asked myself what characteristics the true religion would have, if there was one.

1. It would probably be the oldest, or linked to the oldest.
1B. As a result, it would have radiated out somewhat evenly from the birthplace of mankind.
1C. It would probably have some influence on most derived religions.

2. It would probably not die off.

3. It would not contradict reality.

That kills off all religions as they exist unto themselves. By those criteria, I'd be inclined to seek out similarities between early middle eastern mythology, early hinduism, early egyptian beliefs, etc. and embrace any common threads they might hold. You can go a lot of different directions with that based on your interpretation.
It kills Christianity though, as well as Islam.


As for the things I am confident on in this universe:
1. There is a collective conscious, subliminal mass communication, genetic memory, or whatever you want to call it.

2. You still exist in one form or another after your die, but there many not only be one of you, you may not be the same, and you almost certainly won't know what you were before.

3. The soul is not ethereal, only subject to physics we don't necessarily understand yet- think higher dimensions.

4. If there is a God or Gods, they work through the laws of the universe, ie: physics, regardless of which came first.

5. There's probably not a heaven or a hell.

6. Karma is imperfect, but generally does exist, although it is least likely to punish sociopaths in positions of extreme power.

Originally posted by Flyer

Originally posted by elijah777
svience vs. god, god vs. science; god proves science. ther more you know about science you realize that it makes perfect since with what god says. here is some proof every profesy has happend, there are about 20 about jesus life around a thousand before he was born and there pretty specific.

We need that confused smilie from ATS.

Yeah, that's a good one. :?

"jesus is god cuz he died on th cross for all are sins and kilt a bear when he was three and loves you even if you dont believe in him and if you pray he will give you heavenly riches but if you dont he will burn you in everlastin fire amen halleluya"

I grew up around similar retards. And I mean no disrespect or insult when I say "retards."



[edit on 26-5-2006 by Enkidu]

How can you believe in something nobody has seen?
How can you believe in something that has not been proven?
How come every religion has their own God and set of rules?

If everyone believed in the Bible, more people would go to hell than to heaven for their sins.

What happens if you live in a state of neutrality rather than believing in a God, but you don't deny the existance of God and die with this belief?

I have a very open mind, some call me agnostic. The proof that we became who we are today through evolution is stronger than my beliefs about the bible.

My beliefs about religion is it was formed to create a governing law. To control, convince, or persuade people to be good people that there are penalties for being bad. For some it gives hope. Which sometimes is all it takes.

If people believe in a religion and it gives them some sort of satisfaction then I am ok with that. If it gives you hope, then great I'm happy for you. But some of us don't need a religion to have hope or to be good people.

I'll believe it when I see it or when it somehow touches me in some paranormal way. Which is why I am the way I am, and agnostic.

I would have to disagree with you about science it has never proved wether there is a God or Not so say that is just your own opinion.

The nature of the universe makes the existence of God impropable. The nature of the universe has been revealed (partially for now) from science. Science proves humans are aform of life, just like the rest. There is no soul, and humans do nothing different from other animals (even God worshipping is an animal trend).

I would also like to say that Heaven and Hell are places that the body cannot go your spirit body goes there, so I would assume that people arent able to do what Christs did a die and go to the depts of Hell.

From a philosophical point of view, there is also no God. Why is the Christian version of God (with heaven and hell) the right one? if there was God, it would be for all the people. Your religion is no more right than the other religions.

how come we have not found more people like us in our solar system that just popped out of no where.

The only habitable planet in this area is the Earth. We are going to find more Earth-like planets in the near future, when the large array telescope will be created in space.

it all changes when someone is dieing or in extreme pain why do we always cry out to someone that people say do not exist

Because people need a shoulder to rest their head on.

Jesus existed as a person , this is also scientific proof.

No, there is not. There is only one historical account, of Tachitus, that Jesus Christ was a real person. And then we have the gospels.

So if you link the story line , the anouncement was made way back from the old testament that jesus is coming.

The old testament speaks of a Messiah. It does not say it will be Jesus of Nazareth. Some charismatic person like Jesus took over the role. Self-fulfilled prophecy.

If it were as simple as "survival of the fittest" then what purpose does a purple orchid in the jungle have...how did flowering plants evolve and from what, how did photosynthesis evlove, how did thought evolve, how does everything come from nothing?

Please read the chaos theory. Out of chaos rises order. That order is life. Just because we do not know every step of the process, it does not make the process false.

it has been my experience as a mystic in researching this area of life for many years that the Judeo-Christian god (as well as all the other "gods" found in traditional religions) are not minor gods who can create their own bodies with The Light Of The God Force

Please stop promoting lies.

While I can't prove a negative, that there's NOT a God

Actually it is very easy to prove it. Here is the proof:

Suppose the universe's complexity is U and God's complexity is G. Let's say that the universe is so complex that it can not be created by itself and an outside force is needed. Let this outside force be God. Since U < G, it follows that God must have been created by another entity...ad infinitum. This is false, and therefore the original hypothesis is wrong.

God is also the one who allows everything that happens on earth to happen; yes even the bad things God does not cause these things, but He does allow the Devil to do these thing.

If God exists and the prophecies came true, then the path of life for all of us is already written. Therefore we do not have a choice, as we are simply acting out another entity's will.

where did God come from then? did he magically appear or has he been here forever? if he has been here forever, then i guess it'll be a long time before he gets here, because time goes backwards forever. and if you disagree about time going backwards forever, then u just said God himself was created.

Indeed. And if God is eternal, then any period of the universe's existence would be infinitely small for God.

Another issue: if God alters his state (for example, changing opinions or creating events), then this implies the existence of a timespace for God. In other words, God moves in a universe which is larger than God. If there was no such universe or that universe was God, the concept of timespace would have no meaning for God. In other words, the concepts of 'before' and 'after' would not exist for God.

So I am to believe in a god that:
Is a coward, sends his son to do his work
Impotent, needs humans to do all his work
Selfish, His way or the highway
God sounds like a leader in some fascist regime. I do not believe in the Christian god, but I will not rule out the possibility that a creator exists.

You do not have to go that far. Here is a controversy for you: God gave you sex urges, but God forbids you to have sex when you have the urges unless you have taken a certain ceremony.

I would also like to point out that a perfect God would not have needs (needs are an animal thing). Therefore God would not have created anything.

When the theory was developed, they didn't have a clue about DNA. The problem is, that DNA has an embedded system of error checking in it, which is 'run' when the DNA is building proteins and such. This is to prevent errors and mutation within the gene, and usually if there is an error, it is repaired or the development of that entity is halted, or it will not survive long after being conceived.

No. Mutation due to DNA change is a proven fact.

But these animals couldn't have evolved from land animals. Would they had swimmed first a bit and decided to evolve themself gills, and then moved to live underwater? Or they just loved swimming and plankton so much, that they evolved fins for swimming and the held their breath for a couple of billion years until they had lungs capable of living most of time submerged? Yeah, sure they did.

Why not? perhaps their initial breathing system was capable of operating both in land and in sea. Then some animals found more reasons to be on land (more food, for example), and thus their breathing system slowly selected one form over the other.

Astronomers and scientists have found from their observations and equations that the Universe is not infinite as many believed, just extremely large. Which points to its Creator not having been omnipotent, just extremely powerful.

Aha! that's a great observation. In fact we could just be a simulation.

Moreover, mathematical probability points to the Universe being manifested through design and not by accident.

Nope. It is the exact opposite. The universe is so big that the propability of life created accidentally is almost 1.

Originally posted by JSquared
SOMETHING CANNOT COME FROM NOTHING...unless there is an original something....there has to be a creator somewhere....be it a supernatural being, or a force of physics that we cannot comprehend....something had to put us here..the univers hasn't always been here....what was it? a void that cannot be explained rationally?

I was reading the thread again and saw this.

First off, let me say that we do not know the nature of nothing and therefore we cannot make assumptions about it. We can only use our examples of a VOID to make assumptions about nothing, and all we know about void is that it is a vacuum. We have never encountered an ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS so we cannot make assumptions about anything.

Secondly, you said that something had to create the Universe. But what created that? And what created that's creator? And so on and so forth... What was the first thing in the Universe? It makes more sense to assume that something can be formed from nothing.

Q: How can you believe in something nobody has seen?

A:close your eyes, do you know the computer is there?

Q:How can you believe in something that has not been proven?

A:have you ever proven it. you rely it the scientist. scientist know a cure for cancer but people are still dying.

Q:How come every religion has their own God and set of rules?

A: some people actually want to know the true god but they might there door quicked down by there police. others were brought up to beleive in budda or whatever. if a man prays to budda and gets no answer and teaches it to his kids hes an idiot.

quote:
So I am to believe in a god that:
Is a coward, sends his son to do his work

A:what hurts more to suffer or watch your son suffer.

Impotent, needs humans to do all his work

A:his work is for you to be happy "dont murder".

Selfish, His way or the highway

A:fine do it your way and someone take his car.

God sounds like a leader in some fascist regime.

A: ok have a democracy, the government can trade on us and we can be on fight the power websites.

Closhing your eyes and knowing the computer is there is no defense.

Of course, I've already seen it, and I can still touch it. Horrible example.

Maybe now you'll go with the old "I see the effects of the wind but I don't see the wind" line, but again, the wind can be measured, touched, etc. Not so with god.


As for relying on scientists: The average person (assuming they aren't an idiot) has some understanding of and has verified for themselves in school the basic principles upon which more advanced science has been based, and results have been consistently reproduced by many scientists in many places who in many cases have no motive for promoting a false science. Nobody tithes to scientists or lives their life as scientists dictate- if science can't produce something tangible and useful it falls by the wayside. Not so with religion.


You can leave the Buddhists alone too. My family taught me Christianity even though their prayers were answered at a rate reflecting the probability of the things they prayed for. They didn't disown it though, because religion disowns intelligence and relies "on faith". "God always answers," they say, "But sometimes the answer is 'no' or 'wait'." You know what, I've never heard a booming voice say "no" or "wait". I've prayed and had nothing happen. That's one of the many reasons I'm not a Christian. I've also noticed that non-religious intent (in a few hare-brained experiments with "magic") was just as effective as prayer.

I'm amazed at the intellectual hoops the religious will jump through to deny the obvious. Religious apologetics stack the deck against themselves because they start with a proposition and build a defense around it, rather than starting wth premises and following them to a conclusion. This is why apologetics tend to be fallacious.

jesus said if you seek him you you'll find him if you want to diprove him. seek if you dont find him your right.

no.......you wouldnt be right, you just didnt try hard enogh.

What a wonderful self-contained little dellusion you have there. It doesn't matter what Jesus said. Jesus was just some uncouthe rabble rouser in a rebellious roman province some 2000 years ago. All he ever did disrupt religious services, crash weddings, and lecture to the dregs of society.

As a matter of fact- he was a lot like the people these days who say they are Jesus. Just another loud, obnoxious, undergroomed, low-life with a Messiah complex.

Hey dude, I'm Jesus. That sounds pretty stupid coming from me, right?
That's how it sounds to me coming from your Jesus.

So now comes the part where you tell me I'm going to hell. But hey, that's to be expected. You need people like me. So you can point your fingers and say "that's the bad guy". So take a good look at the bad guy. You'll never see a bad guy like this again. Make way! There's a bad guy coming through!

(sorry I love scarface, even if I probably did miss a few lines)

masterp, some of your statements are kind of illogical....

The nature of the universe makes the existence of God impropable. The nature of the universe has been revealed (partially for now) from science. Science proves humans are aform of life, just like the rest. There is no soul, and humans do nothing different from other animals (even God worshipping is an animal trend)

improbable....maybe...but not impossible..Yes, humans are living organisms, but we have plenty of differences when compared to animals....take for example, animals have natural defense systems...ie:shells, regenerating limbs, etc.....humans have no natural defenses.....we have the ability to create defenses.....

No soul?....How do you know?....sounds like you are jumping to a conclusion without any evidence presented.....

Animals worshiping gods?.......huh?

.....the propability of life created accidentally is almost 1.

if it is so probable, again I ask...Why can't it be replicated?....and I really don't know where you got that statistic in the first place.....

Please read the chaos theory. Out of chaos rises order. That order is life. Just because we do not know every step of the process, it does not make the process false.

like you said, we don't know every step of that process......and who knows for certain that a "creator" didn't factor in somewhere?...

I'm not going to debate this anymore...because there are a few that will always want to argue rather than listen to logic....I will defend any of my statements though....

for some reason, people are so set against the possibility that humans are not the supreme beings in the universe.....I choose to humble myself in having faith that there is something greater to our existance....

If that is not what you choose, so be it.....Live and let live I guess....

vagabond, if i wanted you to go to hell i wouldnt be trying to convince to you there is a god. and if i wanted to say "bad guy" i wouldnt want you to be good.