Is Jacksonville the new “Murder Capital” of America. Taking the Place of Detroit? Houston?

Is Jacksonville FL to be the new “Murder Capital” of America? To take the place of Detroit? Or Houston? Or W-DC?

The murder of Shenice, a 13-year-old girl killed as she read a book in her bedroom has brought forth emotion from her family and Jacksonville law enforcement officials. A 7th grade honor-roll student was the 49th person murdered in Jacksonville in 2006. That's more murders this year than Miami, Orlando and Tampa combined. The child’s mother said she and her children had only been in the apartment about 10 minutes before shots rang out in the parking lot. Williams said her daughter couldn't wait to open her new book when the family got home, but that her reading was interrupted by gunfire.

"I told her to get down, and she jumped down near the foot of my bed. I was on the opposite side and my son was on one side. She didn't say anything. I asked her, 'Are you OK?' She said, 'No, I got hit,' and by then she was crawling toward me." Her daughter had tried to stand up before she collapsed into her mother’s arms. Her mother gave her daughter CPR. “I held her real tight and told the paramedics to please hurry," her mother said. Shenice later died at a local hospital. Via Yahoo News.

Edited by Don W.

All but 10 of the 49 murders were by firearms. Several murders, like this one, were obviously unintended and were irresponsibly inflicted on innocent people. What we call collateral damage in a war zone. No, this is not Baghdad West, 49 people are killed there everyday. This is day 137 in 2006 in Jax.

Over 50% of the murder victims were people of “color.” The county sheriff is up in arms. The city police are up in arms. The local mass media are up in arms. The mayor is up in arms. The city council is up in arms. It seems everyone is “up in arms” except the National Rifle Association which just last week said they were going to do more of whatever it was they have been doing this past half century. Representing and representing well the gun makers and gun importers of America. I suppose hoping to reach their goal of every American to be armed with at least one rapid fire, repeating hand gun and hopefully, in the NRA’s ‘mind’ - an oxymoron? - one long gun. Rifles for the rural folk, shotguns for the urban folk.

There are a couple civilized cities, in Illinois I think, that have banned all handguns inside the city limits. I believe this action has been upheld by the U. S. Supreme Court. Just one more of a couple dozen very restrictive laws limiting firearms which shows the Second Amendment has always been regarded as subject to interpretation. And reasonable limitations. Despite endless pro-gun lobbying groups protestations to the contrary.

Banning guns. Can you think of a better solution to end senseless killings all too often of our youth?


[edit on 5/16/2006 by donwhite]

My solution would be to raise taxes and double the size of Rayford. Then send every criminal caught with an illegal weapon there for the rest of their lives.

Originally posted by darkelf
My solution would be to raise taxes and double the size of Rayford. Then send every criminal caught with an illegal weapon there for the rest of their lives.

Very comprehensive, d/e. I noted the patent in 1970, which I guess would have run out in 1987. So its every man for himself?

Originally posted by donwhite
Over 50% of the murder victims were people of “color.”


Banning guns. Can you think of a better solution to end senseless killings all too often of our youth?

Having lived in Jacksonville in the late 1980's and knowing how things were then, I have to ask "What percentage of the people doing the shooting were people of "color"? There were certain sections of that city that I wouldn't go into after dark even if I had tank support.


As far as banning guns is concerned I am a firm believer in the statement "If guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns". Outlawing guns treats the symptoms not the disease.

posted by JIMC5499

posted by donwhite
Over 50% of the murder victims were people of “color.” Banning guns. Can you think of a better solution to end senseless killings all too often of our youth?

Having lived in Jacksonville in the late 1980's and knowing how things were then, I have to ask "What percentage of the people doing the shooting were people of "color"? [Edited by Don W]

I don’t know the color of the shooters. I imagine many of the cases are still open. I’d guess the Homicide Division is overwhelmed with work. Only intra-family homicides can be easily solved.

“I am a firm believer in the statement "If guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns". Outlawing guns treats the symptoms not the disease.

I don’t know, J99. It is so much more work to beat a person to death than to squeeze a trigger. And, you have to be up close and personal, too. I’d think if 39 people out of 49 are shot to death, I’d begin to look at the instrument. Instead of just giving the old shoulder shrug. The ‘What, Me Worry’ response.

The problem is not legal gun ownership. If these guys had legally owned guns, they would be more easily traced. Most crimes are committed with illegally owned firearms. Banning guns only takes the guns away from the law abiding citizens. It does nothing to those who own them illegally.

I am not usually given to such touchy feely historincs. I do not deny that such is a problem in that city or any city. It is getting so in this town.

Using your logic and reason...since you most likely operate a motor vehicle .and since motor vehicles kill/injure more people every year...every week every day.. ..than guns.....I feel that your motor vehicle should be taken away from you...just on the off chance that you may kill or injure someone with it...in the future. It doesnt matter that you obey the laws...just the off chance that this may happen is enough to remove your priavte property from your control and or ownership.

You see...Donwhite ..you are by this reasoning ...guilty and sentance pronounced before any crime or accident is committed..and your property removed from you.

Perfect logic isnt it..there are more deaths and injurys annually and daily from automobiles than guns...logical. We are looking the wrong way... nothing is ever said about this. Should we be going after the automobile manufacturers?? How about the auto insurance companys...the AAA???

I suggest more along the line of steps to improve the character traits of the people living in America...not removing the property of all Americans on the off chance that someone will or may get killed. Its about character or lack there of.

What you have in many of these cities is people whose conduct is glorified along the lowest common denominator and this to them is excellence.
This is nothing new...history records this many times. Find out what changed these conditions ..historically....not politically.

Thanks,
Orangetom

posted by orangetom1999

Using your logic . . since you most likely operate a motor vehicle and motor vehicles kill more people every year . . every week every day . . than guns . . I feel that your motor vehicle should be taken away from you . . It doesn’t matter that you obey the laws . . just the off chance that this may happen is enough to remove your private property from your control and or ownership. [Edited by Don W]

1) Lethality. There are more than 5 million reported auto accidents annually, but barely 38,000 people die. The last time I looked at the CDC stats, year 2000, 28% of people shot, died. About 10,000 annually. The lethality of guns and cars are magnitudes apart. So much that in my opinion, the two are not comparable. Definitely apples and oranges.

2) Utility. Guns are designed to kill. Hand guns are designed to kill humans. Cars are not designed to kill.

“Donwhite . . by this reasoning . . [you are] guilty and sentence pronounced before any crime or accident is committed..and your property removed from you. Perfect logic isn’t it? I suggest improve the character traits of the people living in America . . not removing the property of Americans on the off chance that someone will or may get killed.

I’m pretty sure most of the “illegal” guns began their existence as “legal” guns. Somewhere along the way between manufacture and deadly, illegal usage, the guns went “illegal.” I think usually by some theft or a breaking and entry. The supply of illegal guns is so large that the price “on the street” is lower than in the store. Hmm?

Its about character or lack there of. This is nothing new . . history records this many times. Find out what changed these conditions . . historically . . not politically. Thanks, Orangetom

I’m not sure, O99, that there is any time or place remotely like the U. S. in 2006.
Gun-wise, that is.


[edit on 5/16/2006 by donwhite]

donwhite
you posted:

"2) Utility. Guns are designed to kill. Hand guns are designed to kill humans. Cars are not designed to kill. "

I have several guns including handguns which are designed for target shooting...with special target sights on them. Punching holes in paper..from designated ranges and designated rules..not killing people.

This is a quantum assumption on your part and simply not true. It is disinformation.

Your statistics on cars show more than three times the casualtys than guns....and not even including the injuries. Not good tact..there. It is what happens..actually happens...which you are speaking of...in terms of guns..complete with your assumptions. What actually happens with cars..Donwhite...it is not what they are designed for...but what actually happens. Your point about what cars are designed for is a placebo...what actually happens on our highways..donwhite??? By the way ..with automobiles do we also go after the Liquior manufacturers..beer producers too.?? HOw about those going around on drugs...even prescription drugs.?? I was quite shocked to learn how many people go around on some kind of anti depressant or such daily behind the wheel.
You need to think about what you are saying .and perhapsed even think about what you are thinking.

What you are talking about is removing property from people who havent done any crime...no offense..removing private property from them. Think it through ..dont emote...think.
You have no such entitlement at law...to remove property from people in this manner or for this cause. This is feudalism...socialism..marxism. The taking away of private property.

One of the core foundations of this country is the ability to own property..private property. You would have the privateness removed from the property so that the property can then be disposed of...in whatever manner expedient today. or tomorrow.
Also what are your sources for your statistics..on gun deaths...I am curious about this??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Im kind of worried about you ...as to why in order for you to be secure ...you must feel that others much change thier lifestyle or the ownership of private property for you to be secure.

I am curious as to what you do for a living that you feel so insecure?? What your occupation is that you dont feel a person like me trustworthy to own a gun..of any kind??

Can you help me out with this??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by donwhite
Is Jacksonville FL to be the new “Murder Capital” of America? To take the place of Detroit? Or Houston? Or W-DC?

Banning guns. Can you think of a better solution to end senseless killings all too often of our youth?


[edit on 5/16/2006 by donwhite]

sorry donwhite, but i disagree on this one point.
i live in dc. ever since 1976 it has been illegal to bring a handgun, the weapon of choice used in the majority of these crimes, into this city. yet it seems like everyday there is some incident report of someone getting shot, and in many cases killed.
i was born in this city and have lived here all my life in what many would consider to be the "rough" side of town.
gun laws in this city have proven to be quite useless and a complete failure of legislation.

a few months ago my dad was a victim of this senseless violence. a pair of pathetic losers tried to break into his home, and when he tried to confront them, shots rang out. luckly for us, no one was physically hurt, but we were all quite shaken up about it. till this day we don't know who did it, and the cops are no help either. in my opinion, gun laws have damn near nothing to do with those hooligans who chose to fire that weapon, and personal responsibility.

posted by orangetom1999

donwhite, you posted:

"2) Utility. Guns are designed to kill. Hand guns are designed to kill humans. Cars are not designed to kill. "

I have several guns including handguns which are designed for target shooting . . not killing people. This is a quantum assumption on your part and not true. It is disinformation. Your statistics on cars show more than three times the casualties than guns . . and not even including the injuries. [Edited by Don W]

The “rate” of death inflicted by cars is 38,000 divided by 5 million, whereas in guns the rate is 28% of persons shot. I have not done the math but I can tell by looking it is nearly insignificant in the case of cars.

I have no idea what any particular design engineer at Beretta for example, was thinking when he she or it designed the latest range of very handsome Beretta handguns. Just as a car can be a commercial taxi, so it can also be a private conveyance.

I see no harm in me thinking guns were designed to kill and you thinking not so in all cases. Every gun is capable of being used either way. Experience tells me a gun intended for one use may be easily put to a different use. I, as I’m sure you, are dissatisfied with the number of gun related deaths in the United States. You know the numbers. More people are killed in one year in Jacksonville than are killed in all of Western Europe by handguns. To me that is an intolerable situation.

By the way . . with automobiles do we also go after the liquor manufacturers . . beer producers too.? HOW about those going around on drugs . . even prescription drugs.? I was quite shocked to learn how many people go around on some kind of anti depressant or such daily behind the wheel.

I readily admit there are many problems facing modern society that beg to be addressed. It is better to deal with one at a time than to use a shotgun approach, if you will excuse the metaphor. It may well be the gun problem is insoluble. With 80 million gun owners holding 280 million guns, it will take a sea change in attitudes to “solve” the problem.

When I was an EM in the USAF, we hand to “park” our guns in the Special Services lockers. We could check them out for shooting or cleaning, but at the end of the day, they had to be in the locker. I think this may be the practice in Europe, too.

You need to think about what you are thinking . . you are talking about is removing property from people who haven’t done a crime . . no offense . . removing private property from them. Think it through . . don’t emote . . think. You have no such entitlement at law . . to remove property from people in this manner or for this cause. This is feudalism . . socialism . . Marxism. The taking away of private property. One of the core foundations of this country is the ability to own private property.

Sorry, but I’m a “collectivist.” That is, I believe society has the inherent power to do what it deems essential for its well-being. I am not a helpless person who cannot do, together, what our good sense dictates. Sort of a social right of “eminent domain.” Taking private property for a public purpose. Our constitution provides only that the owner is to be compensated, unlike most other countries. Not that private property cannot be taken, although there is a movement afoot to change current law. This is not Bophar, India, where the citizens were helpless.

Also what are your sources for your statistics on gun deaths . . I am curious about this? Thanks,
Orangetom [Edited by Don W]

The Federal Center for Disease Control, or CDC, in Atlanta. I have forgotten the URL but Google will have it.

Donwhite . . I’m worried about you . . as to why in order for you to be secure . . you must feel that others much change their lifestyle or the ownership of private property for you to be secure. I am curious as to what you do for a living that you feel so insecure? What’s your occupation is that you don’t feel a person like me trustworthy to own a gun of any kind? Can you help me out with this? Thanks,
Orangetom

I don’t feel insecure. I am disappointed that Americans are so violent and more, that so many are so comfortable with so much uncalled for violence. I am a retired person who has worked around the insurance industry, the legal system and in an environmental waste company.

To couch the issue as one person’s trustworthiness is not legitimate, IMO. That is pure avoidance. (Never let your opponent define the premises.) I base my opinions on the certain knowledge that even in the old Soviet Union, one was safer on the streets of Moscow or Leningrad than in W-DC. What’s up here? Why is that? Why do Americans sit by and watch upwards of 10,000 people die each year from firearms when that many people won’t die in all of Europe in 20 years? Is that somehow an American PLUS? Maybe I’m missing something.

posted by karby

Sorry donwhite, but I disagree on this one point. I live in DC. Since 1976 it has been illegal to bring a handgun into this city. The weapon of choice used in the majority of crimes . . yet it seems like everyday there is some incident report of someone getting shot, and in many cases killed. I was born in this city and have lived here all my life. Gun laws in this city have proven to be quite useless and a complete failure of legislation.

I understand that. NYC had the strictest anti-gun laws since the late 1920s. The Sullivan Act. So we’ve learned that the gun dealers in Virginia sold 1000s of guns to “gun runners” who made huge profits hailing them from VA to NYC. Like cigarettes from NC, VA and KY to Canada. Lawbreakers will find a way. Cocaine from Colombia, heroin from Afghan. And etc. So do we quit? Do we turn the world over to the Mafia? Or do we keep plugging along?

Conclusion Follows

[edit on 5/17/2006 by donwhite]

Continued from post above.

We could do a lot if there was sufficient public demand for it. A moratorium on gun sales. A real buy-back program. Rewards for informants. Realistic penalties for illegal possession or use. And etc. In Ky, when an illegal gun was found on a person, the regular court order was “C & D” on the gun. Confiscate and destroy. A real national effort could do wonders in a relatively short time.

A few months ago a pair of pathetic losers tried to break into [my dad’s] home . . when he confronted them, shots rang out . . Luckily no one was hurt . . Till this day we don't know who did it . . the cops are no help . . In my opinion, gun laws have damn near nothing to do with hooligans who chose to fire that weapon, and are personally irresponsible. Regards, [Edited by Don W]

We are all happy your father was not injured. As I wrote just above, we did not get into this “mess” overnight and we will not work our way out of the mess overnight. You can be sure the hoodlums will not turn in their guns in any buy-back. But with informants paid in cash for each hoodlum, the numbers will shrink. At some point in time, America can be a safer place.

There are no legal impediments to this. It is perfectly legal to drastically limit guns in America. It is a crime to have a sawed off shotgun or rifle. Or a silencer. Etc. Recall the medical doctor in Texas who was under a DVO and was found to have a handgun in his house? He got time to serve and lost his appeals. The Second Amendment was not his license to ignore the laws of the land. A similar fate came to a gun dealer who forget to tell the Feds he had a felony in his file. A misconception promoted by the NRA and other pro-gun groups. All of which are in reality manufacturers agents or lobbyists.

Wow!!!

I cant help but wonder where from you got your utopia ideas that you have to use Russia or the Olde Soviet UNion as a example of a stable socitey. You were not that safe in the Soviet Union .even under the Communists. YOu were just as likely to get mugged in thier parks for your money or Levis as here for your stylish Tennis Shoes or jacket. This is just a concept that is not much presented to the American public in order to protect the "utopia" which never was. Russia under the communists nor today was and is not a safe place.

You take quantum leaps in assumptions..here ..in that guns were designed to kill...while leaving out totally the concept that guns were also designed to protect. How do I know this ..the local constabulary also carrys them ...many kinds. I also happen to know that the local constabulary is nothing but a arm of the local, state, and federal politics. This is a very sad state for a people to be under such triple jeopardy. As the poster from Washington DC attests.
I too am happy that her family is alright after that break in incident.

Another piece of misinformation...Don White..silencers can be owned privately..as do fully automatic weapons...under the right guidelines. You did not mention this while spreading your blanket of misinformation...over the whole country.

As to cars and guns...once again..not by design...but atcually...what happens....not by political design either but actually ...reality..what really happens on our roads...daily..what is the death and injury rate for automobiles?? I submit in this case the numbers are politically derived...for fear and politics...not actually. Not only this but the numbers by comparison are avoided totally for fear and politics.
Your technique is very good for moving the shells so as to hide the peas...politically.

Most Americans are not in fact violent. Most Americans dont want to bother anyone or be bothered. My method of handling most AMericans is to work the back shifts ..preferably the graveyard shift. My prefered shift. Fewer people around.

I am not a collectivist and never will be. With the levels of public education ..or lack there of..I just prefer to have as little contact with most people as possible.
I dont believe in society ..I believe in individual choice and responsibility.
My greatest fear is to be stuck in a situation..or on a island with Collectivists/Social thinkers who dont know how to do anything individually and are looking for someone to attach themselves to to take on thier responsibilities..what a nightmare. Someone else to take on there welfare...daily.

Something else for you to think about ...in all the areas where this type of gun control has been practiced including the "civilized " cities in America...private property has taken a plunge in the manner that parasites have moved in an began a noticable trend in assaults on persons and thier homes.
This is happening in Europe...in Austraulia..Africa and will happen here. When they remove the ability of private peoples to protect themselves and thier propertys....it beomes "shopping day" for those who will not turn in their guns or obey the law. Police or the local constabulary are useless here...only recording more paperwork to justify more uselessness. This too is missing from your statistics and those reports you are claiming as the source of your informaiton. I have seen the CDC site and this is definitely missing from thier results.

I too did time in the USAF. Other than the required range training I did not handle firearms at all. Was not intrested. I was however trained in them.
Since that time I have acquired a number of them. I keep them maintained and stored appropriately. I also reload ammunition.

I am a machinist down here in Virginia..where all the nations Nuclear Aircraft Carriers are built and also many of our Nuclear submarines. I am particular about the person working next to me as this work can be dangerous and undiciplined people will not make it working with me. Emotional ones either. If one works with me one had better learn quickly to stow ones emotions in order to get the job done and both of us get home safely at the end of the day..this requires dicipline..not wildlife in its natural habitat...which is what you and others are describing on many of the nations streets. I dont care for wildlife....ever..Human wildlife that is.
I am also a nuclear fuel loader under a specialty qualification as a machinist. When I see persons like you don white who imply in thier postings that I cannot be trusted with a firearm...I immediately know how provincial your thinking is. If I cannot be trusted with a firearm...but with a uranium fuel rod...you and others with this kind of thinking dont realilze what you are saying.
Gun control is a substitute fear tactic...for political gain...by our politicians. Like the example of automobile deaths...you are looking the wrong way.
Not everyone here Donwhite is on the standard default settings in this country..on this issue.

All that will happen under utopian gun control is that Ameriacns will lose thier ability to protect thier property and people like me will have to take risks with their life and safety several times in a row...to replace the property stolen or hijacked by parasites..who themselves will take little risk as do I in acquiring my property.
This is what utopia does to people...no matter how well intended.
If someone intends to take my private property they need to take the same risk as I in acquiring it. My private property is not "shopping day" while the politicians and constabulary justify more dollars and get re elected on more fear.
YOu do not ever under the guise of social utopia reduce people and laws to statistics in order to get the numbers to come out correctly or as politically intended...this is whoredom..intellectual whoredom at its best. This kind of thinking always satisfys the legal intent of the law...but never the lawful intent. It satisfys the form of law...legal ..but never the Substance of law..what law is really supposed to do....the substance....lawful. Check this out in Blacks Law Dictionary under Legal Fiction or Fiction of law. This is very telling to those who can think it through.

Thanks,
Orangetom

posted by orangetom1999
Wow!!! I cant help but wonder where from you got your utopia ideas that you use Russia or the Olde Soviet union as a example of a stable society. [Edited by Don W]

I’m talking pre-1989. I have never been to the USSR. When the KGB handler of FBI Agent Robert Hanssen was recalled to Moscow, for misuse of KGB funds, he was tried - administratively - by the KGB. On a finding of “insufficient evidence” he was reassigned to duty at a substation some way out of Leningrad. Locked in ignominy, but not in any gulag, either. I stand by my belief.

This is just a concept that is not much presented to the American public in order to protect the "utopia" which never was. Russia under the communists nor today was and is not a safe place. I also know the local constabulary is nothing but a arm of the local, state, and federal politics. This is a very sad state for a people to be under such triple jeopardy. As the poster from Washington DC attests.

I have no disdain for the various governments we live under. I don’t like it when the Jack Abramoff’s buy our political leaders but neither is that a new phenomenon. We must exercise constant vigilance.

Don White . . silencers can be owned privately . . as do fully automatic weapons . . under the right guidelines.

Yes, O/T99, you’re right. I do know the BATF issues permits for otherwise banned weapons. I assume there is a website that would explain that and how to apply for one.

what is the death and injury rate for automobiles? I submit in this case the numbers are politically derived . . for fear and politics . . not actually.

I don’t know the motor vehicle death rate but I am very sure it is far lower than that for people who get shot by a gun. That's 28%. The numbers I used work out to 0.75% death rate for cars. I do not agree the CDC stats are unreliable.

Most Americans are not violent. Most Americans don’t want to bother anyone or be bothered . . I am not a collectivist . . I don’t believe in society . . I believe in individual choice and responsibility . . Police or the local constabulary are useless here . . only recording more paperwork to justify more uselessness. This too is missing from your statistics. I have seen the CDC site . . I too did time in the USAF . . When I see persons like you Don White who imply in their postings that I cannot be trusted with a firearm . . I know how provincial your thinking is . . Gun control is a substitute fear tactic . . Like the example of automobile deaths . . you are looking the wrong way.

I have not meant to say or imply you are not personally trustworthy. I meant to say that was not an issue I planned to debate. I believe you are trustworthy. I happen to disagree with you on guns and gun related issues. There are other areas I disagree with you, too, but my preferences have no more right to ascendency than I grant to yours.

This kind of thinking always satisfies the legal intent of the law...but never the lawful intent. It satisfies the form of law...legal ..but never the Substance of law..what law is really supposed to do....the substance....lawful. Check this out in Blacks Law Dictionary under Legal Fiction of law. Thanks,
Orangetom

I don’t have a copy of the Blackstone’s Law Dictionary.


[edit on 5/17/2006 by donwhite]

I was watching the local news this morning and Allegheny County in Pennsylvania had its 30th murder last night. This county includes the City of Pittsburgh. This made me remember something. Jacksonville, Florida is also Duval County. The City limits are the county limits. This makes Jacksonville the largest city in the world in land area. I think that this thread is compairing apples and oranges. Instead of compairing Jacksonville to Detroit and Washington DC, how about we compair it to the total murders for the counties that those cities are in? I'm looking for some statistics and will post them when I find them.

On the other hand I have little respect for the governments we live under.
Perhapsed more accurately little respect for the political partys/machine we live under. The original government document is fine.
THey remove individual responsibility in favor of the concept that the government or the political party will take care of any problems if you vote for them or in otherwords perpetuate them in office.
Over the years this has come to mean the partys are America..not the public. IT becomes a feudal fiefdom. Never really solving problems or responding to the public but substituting a placebo..the party will for the public will. Gun control is only one of the placebos. This buisness of the Illegal Aliens is another which clearly marks out the partys or government for it real intent...self perpetuation.
People have a "fundamental right" to defend their hard won property from parasites...including government. Granted we like to use due process ...first and always..but the remedys are there in the intent of the framers...clearly.

When the law of the land works in substance...you have order...Lawful.
When the law of the land works only in form.. legal...you have chaos.

THe law must be written in the hearts of the people of a land..something avoided here in favor of the "form of law" legal. Some "experts call this the " colour of law" Not the actual substance of law or the intent of the law.
IF you constantly utilize the "colour of law or legality" you will have chaos..not order. Chaos is what politics specializes in in order to perpetuate themselves and the political machine..not for the benifit of the public. This becomes clear ..if one watchs closely the operation of the machine..of which law and the legal profession is a intregal part.

As a American ..I am not given to feudalism by nature..I am not European and dont want to follow the European models. All I have to do is read their history to figure it out.

Blacks Law Dictionary..just like a good Websters or Oxford Dictionary and Thesarus is a good reference to keep around.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Thanks,
Orangetom