How to defend your self, on a budget.

You can get a new AK for $300 or a surplus AR-15 for $500-600 in most pawn shops. The AK ammo is cheap in bulk and you have very wide availability with the AR-15 and it's ammo is pretty cheap too when compared with 7.62 NATO or.30'06. In the unlikely event that you'd be in pitched gun battle, either gun is far superior to any hunting rifle in terms of manageability and magazine capacity with the SKS being a decent subsitute .

The Mossberg Defender is ok but the Remington 870 is much more common and there's tons of aftermarket parts for it. You can find them used for as little as $150 in just about any pawn or gunshop. It take about 5 minutes to switch from your wingshooting or rifled slug barrel back to a home defense barrel. I prefer the 20" barrel over the 18" barrel because it give you a better sight radius and tighter shot pattern.

reply to post by orangetom1999


Ithaca makes great shotgun, though aftermarket parts and accessory maybe limited. I suggest Remington or Mossberg due to their commonality. Mossberg 500 or 590 are very well tested shotguns. They are the Fords and Chevys of shotguns.

It's great to have assault weapons as toys, fantasizing SHTF scenarios when you need to pump large rounds quickly into multiple targets. But have those as 2nd line of defense, or when you want to launch an assault on some unfortunate group of people.

At self-defense range (that means less than 50 yards), a .308 will over-penetrate, and just not made for close quarter combat. They are made for long range engagements.

When you kill someone with an assault weapon, you will have a LOT LESS sympathy from the judge and jury and your self-defense excuse will have holes that the lawyers will lock-on to put you in JAIL.

Think about it, killing someone with an assault rifle in the name of self-defense will give you a weak chance in court. It will give those stupid lawyers a REASON to label you "Gun NUT" or "A gun nut looking for a reason to KILL".

Guns are no jokes in these days and age, many Americans view gun owners as extreme right-wingers and would love to see gun-owners put in jail for just owning a firearm.

Times have changed, use of deadly force for HD/SD requires solid reasons and the right firearm that won't paint you as a gun nut looking to kill for fun.

I love guns and I hate to see people go to jail for some dumb reason.

gotta shove off here very shortly but want to take time to reply.

Agree about the limited after market parts availability for the model 37 Ithica hence my viewing the Mossburg as an alternative. Mossburg seems to be closing the gap on the model 870 quickly. Yes 870s are quite common around here.

My firearms are not toys...they are tools. There is a important distinction. However as you state the political flatulence of the day is very different.

I dont think highly of a governmet and political system which will trust me with a nuclear fuel cell but not a firearm. One has to go to school to get this stupid. Such stupidity does not come naturally but only through education.

Gotta shove off now.

Thanks for your points,
Orangetom

[edit on 13-10-2007 by orangetom1999]

Short range: 12 ga. shotty. Remington 870

Mid Range: AR-15

Long Range: There is no need, since it's for self-defense.

Carry: Glock 21

THe new sights from the company Tech-Sights I installed..I had the opportunity to try them out at the gun club today. They definitely make a difference. They are a aperture set up verses the standard blade of the issue sights. They are installed as per the post and link I made on page 17 of this thread.

Groups were noticably tighter. The aperture makes a difference as well as the longer sight radius due to the manner in which the rear sight is mounted verses the stock factory sights.

Shot up about 80 rounds today then cleaned my SKS rifle and put it away.

Have another sight ordered for my other rifle.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Sharpie

Long Range: There is no need, since it's for self-defense.

Carry: Glock 21

Obviously never seen how far a 5.56 NATO or 7.62x 39 Russian can hit. From personal shooting experience with a scoped SKS, hitting a man sized silhouette is a very makeable shot at 600 yards. 300 yards is considered the average range for optimum engagement. At 400 yards, 7.62x39 FMJ will still penetrate both sides of a propane tank like it was wet tissue paper. At military HiPower Matches, AR-15 shooters are hitting target boards at 1000 yards with match grade ammo. There's an old infantry man's saying: if the enemy is within range, so are you. The US Army tested it various ammo for lethality and 7.62 NATO was still lethal at over 2km. The nearly 140 year old warhorse .45-70 black powder rounds could still kill a human at nearly 2 miles. If the crappola hits the air moving device, no cops or jury will be available to convict you. It'll be up to you to determine your self-defense space unless some other marksman first determines it for you.

A few intresting things have happened here in the last week.

First off my second set of tech sights have arrived and been installed on my second SKS rifle. Today I took this rifle to the range and tried out the new sights. Immediately I saw a difference in the group size. I am more familiar with the aperture type sights of the M1 Garand or the AR 15 type rifles than the blade types. Most rifles with aperture type sights also tend to have a longer sight radius than the blade types. Nevertheless I was satisfied with the performance of these sights.

Also in the next lane to mine from whence I was shooting was a gentleman with a AK47 type rifle. It was a Romanian type and I asked him if I could see the internals. No problem and he proceeded to dismantle it for my inspection. Wow!! What a let down. Talk about a loose fit. My SKS is loose but this is more so. Appears to me some kind of stamped receiver verses a machined billet of steel. Probably helps with the weight. Also helping with the weight was some kind of wooden skeletonized stock. This rifle did seem to be light weight. Obvoiusly a rifle someone of small stature could utilize...even a woman.
Intresting spring set up too..on the trigger assembly. It is obvious as to why this rifle is turned out by the millions and millions. Ive never seen a bolt on a rifle that small...even smaller/lighter than my .30 M1 Carbine.
This gentleman did allow me to shoot his rifle with a 20 round magazine. No malfunctions at all...however..the group size was not that to which I was accustomed. I was on the 50 yard line. Bullets were staying pretty much in the space of a 8.5x11 pices of paper. Standard Russian type steel cased hollow points...Wolf ammo.
None the less it made for a intresting visit and education in going to the range this day. My opinion is that in skilled hands about 100 yards perhapsed a bit further this rifle would be ok....not so much in unskilled hands. 30/50 yards perhapsed. For me I will stick with my SKS rifles.

THe other thing which happened in the last week is that I ran across a friend who needed cash again. He sold me a Charles Daly .45 ACP for $400. I dont really need another .45 caliber 1911 but the price was right. Seems to me .45 ACP Governments are going at $500 and up.
This seems to be a very nice pistol compared to my standard .45 Government. This one has a ambidextrous safety. Skeletonized trigger and hammer..also the beavertail assembly on the grip. The trigger pull is very nice. Smooth and light as compared to my Government model. The front of the slide has some kind of slots cut in it like on the back end of the Government models..these cuts are both front and back of the slide.
What was intresting to me upon disassembly and cleaning was that the barrel seems to be some kind of stainless steel and has a bevel on the lower throat of it. I have read of this in magazines but have never actually seen this set up with my own eyes. This if I recall is the modification allowing feeding of different types of ammo which would normally jam on issue .45ACP 1911s.
I ran some copper solvent through the barrel and scrubbed vigorously before final cleaning and shot 8 rounds through this pistol today before going on to check out the sights of my SKS. This pistol grouped very nicely once I had the sights figured out. Nice and tight at about15 yards.
This is going to be a nice pistol for the moneys spent.

Originally posted by crgintx
... 300 yards is considered the average range for optimum engagement.

That really depends on the engagement type and quality of the shooter. I would question the statement that 300 yrds is optimum engagement distance. Average engagement range in war is under 100m. I would hate to have to try justifying plugging someone at 300yrds in court as "self defence". Obviously it's slightly different if you're being engaged at this range yourself, but this is so unlikely it's silly. When was the last time you heard of a self defence shooting at over 50m?

There's an old infantry man's saying: if the enemy is within range, so are you.

That depends on your range. Not all shooters are created equal.

If the crappola hits the air moving device, no cops or jury will be available to convict you. It'll be up to you to determine your self-defense space unless some other marksman first determines it for you.

That is a danerous mindset and completely depends on the situation. There are very few situations that a shooter could legally justify shooting someone at 300yds.

I think that the debate has moved from self defence on a budget to self defence with assault rifles in WWIII.

There's no such thing as an assault rifle until it's used to assault a person or defensive position.

In a post apocalypse/disaster situation, I'd be far more concerned with a large roving armed band than any lone individual. If such a group is determined to be hostile using sniper tactics is IMHO a legitimate self-defense response. Unless they're an extremely well disciplined organization, a few wounded or dead among them is going to deter them for a long while. There are many places in the world today where even the best special forces know that they cannot operate with impunity without suffering serious losses first. With modern scopes and range finding equipment, any medium caliber high powered cartridge can be effective at 1km.

reply to post by Bhadhidar


It sounds like the one of the best handguns ever made: the Browning Hi-Power in 9 mm

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I tried to make a helpful thread on helping people on this issue and everyone is just bashing my suggestions.

I do have to say the list is slightly biased since I mentioned weapons I prefer.

AK's are cheaper than mini-14's thus that's the reason I chose them, SKS's do the job quite well too but are limited to lower capacity internal magazines unless you buy a magazine conversion kit of some sort, mini-14's are also of dubious quality since they are not reported to be very acccurate at all and unreliable but that's just what I heard.

Cug, have you had any experience with Chinese shotguns? is there any reason you are not a fan of them? I simply mentioned them because they are the cheapest out there, a single barrel single shot shotgun would be OK but has much longer reload times in case it's needed.

I NEED HELP I'M underaged with no weapons except very sharp objects and i'm really going to have to use my brain do you suggesst I get a Paintball gun ?

reply to post by Ggurl777


I would definitely say no to the paintball gun.

Depending upon your local laws, a bow or an air rifle would probably be the best choice. For an all-purpose survival weapon ideally suited to birds and small game, I'd likely choose an air rifle, but a bow is easily a better self-defense choice.

I'm very interested in this thread.

What interests me is why someone would choose an m1 garand and a 1903 springfield for survival weapons.

Granted the m1 garand is one of the best rifles of all time!! But, aren't there better ones that you could use in the situation that is lighter and more dependable?

My other question comes about the springfield. I own an actual springfield, but I believe its a 1908 springfield (same thing if I'm not mistaken). The barrel was cut off a few inches by previous idiot owner, and the stock is cracked. Should I replace the stock to be able to use this weapon?

Originally posted by Ggurl777
I NEED HELP I'M underaged with no weapons except very sharp objects and i'm really going to have to use my brain do you suggesst I get a Paintball gun ?

If your only option is a paintball gun, you need to be weary of the CO2 useage. This tank will run out quick, and it will be difficult to refill.

This being said, there are several options that you can get for the paintball gun.

1) you can get solid balls to fire out of it
2) you can get balls filled with pepper spray. This can be a great deterrent!

I have heard of using other projectiles in the gun, but I would stay away from them, because they can seriously damage your gun.

I personally have some of the pepper spray ones just for the fun of it! We went out paintballing in the woods, and none of my buds knew I had them. I loaded just one in and shot my buddy...... I can never live it down, it was amazing.

But, pepperspray is not a toy

reply to post by DeusEx

They're smart, big, loud, and when they need to be, vicious. Anyone who's suffered a dog bite knows better to tangle with the big ones. They're legal, they're a HUGE deterrent if they're loud as hell, and dogs don't jam.

Think Shutzhund trained Shepherds or Dobermans.

That's a VERY bad misconception, there--Schutzhund dogs may look vicious but it's actually nothing like what you're thinking of in real life, if you want the dog to instinctively know what's happening and what to do about it. Schutzhund is only a precursor to guard or attack training--the ACTUAL training will need to be done as well. While it DOES require a fearless and confident dog, it takes place in a very controlled environment--nobody is actually trying to hurt the dog or his owner, and the dog is usually trained to attack the armor on the "attacker" instead of actual body parts. In a real-life situation with no armor or guaranteed safety, and especially if you get too scared to give the dog his signal to attack, the dog may panic.

I say get yourself a Shepherd, Doberman, or Rottweiler, develop a close bond with him so he'll naturally want to protect you as part of his family, and give him some actual guard/attack training.